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The Turks did not do that, though, what?
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# ? Feb 19, 2016 17:52 |
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# ? May 27, 2024 09:23 |
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chitoryu12 posted:Ensign Expendable's own website details exactly how well the Tiger could be penetrated by Soviet guns. There's even one specifically on the 45mm guns. Even those little pea shooters had a chance of penetrating a Tiger's sides or turret from 350 meters or less with the right ammo, so you can guess how accurate their claims about the 76.2mm guns are. Nerds like to jerk off to front armor. In the real world, the Soviets used a series of interlocking antitank gun strongpoints on the defensive, laid out so that if Hitlerite tanks attacked one strongpoint they exposed their side armor to the guns of another. The Soviets would also set ATG ambushes, opening up at long range to draw tanks into a killing fire from hidden guns sited on their flanks.
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# ? Feb 19, 2016 17:53 |
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JcDent posted:So they're basically pre-Heresy World Eaters in that regard: insanely motivated, suicidal, would probably fare better if they were less willing to accept casualties. Is this some sort of Puritan formation in the glorious revolution?
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# ? Feb 19, 2016 18:09 |
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Nebakenezzer posted:Is this some sort of Puritan formation in the glorious revolution? No, it means he's a nerd.
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# ? Feb 19, 2016 18:11 |
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Nebakenezzer posted:Is this some sort of Puritan formation I think only the most ardent Irish nationalist would believe Cromwell fought with an axe called "gorechild". "You have sat too long for any good you have done lately, ln the name of the god emperor, go!"
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# ? Feb 19, 2016 18:16 |
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my dad posted:No, it means he's a nerd. Nerds? In the mil-hist thread?
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# ? Feb 19, 2016 18:34 |
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^^ You guys are WEIRDspectralent posted:My memory is that SS Divisions were generally sufficiently fanatical that they didn't surrender very often, and often got into the business of beating and executing conscripts for cowardice and refusing to surrender or submit to capture even when it was borderline suicidal due to their undying faith that superior aryan will would see them through. So, still less impressive than the myth, but in a different way. I could be totally wrong, I'm not particularly knowledgeable about the SS. The SS had a ideological cohesion because they were people who were into Nazism enough to actually take out a permanent subscription to Bullshit Racial Theories Monthly.This gave them a bonus when fighting, since not only are you an army unit, you are a army unit with a ideological cohesion ontop of everything else. SS Units sometimes were eliminated almost to the last man, but remember that in the eastern front, SS units were always just executed when captured, so SS troops had a really good motivation to fight to the death, anyway. In the west a lot of SS were captured. As for effectiveness, it varies widely. Early SS divisions were an elite and fought very well; SS divisions formed late in the war were often no better than any other troops. The number of SS divisions climbs a great deal throughout the war, as Nazi foreigners could always join and fight. This could sometimes undermine their effectiveness as fighting units, like when the SS trained a bunch of units in the Balkans. Basically they accepted the training and equipment, only to go back and start prosecuting the same old ethnic grudges. As people have already mentioned, the SS typically had preferential picks of its equipment. (This is not a very good example, but) the SS was the exclusive user of the Jadgtiger, for example. Like effectiveness, if an SS unit committed war crimes varies quite a bit. Sometimes it also varies depending on what time you pick. Early SS divisions got a reputation of being tough but fair opponents. Once the war in the east started, however, all bets are off. The Third SS Division, the "Death's Head" dudes, were made up of men recruited from concentration camp guards and lead by a guy who's previous occupation before joining the SS was murderer. And even without those sorts of influences, you are creating these really homogeneous units who all believe in this ideology that 1) views your enemies as not just enemies, but subhumans, and 2) places a very low value on human life generally. So even normally composed units had a tendency to war-crimes.
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# ? Feb 19, 2016 18:34 |
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Nebakenezzer posted:This could sometimes undermine their effectiveness as fighting units, like when the SS trained a bunch of units in the Balkans. Basically they accepted the training and equipment, only to go back and start prosecuting the same old ethnic grudges. Care to explain?
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# ? Feb 19, 2016 18:41 |
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JcDent posted:Yo nerds, how false is this It's very false, and let's see why. First, let's handle the author dismissing 76 mm guns: This is a page from the German Tiger manual. In case you can't read tactical diagrams, it shows the T-34 as capable of knocking out a Tiger from 500 meters from the front or 1000 meters from the side. The ZiS-3 had similar ballistics. Those "nearly helpless" 45 mm guns could penetrate the side from 350 meters with APCR and the improved M-42 45 mm gun could do it from 500 meters, or from 200-300 meter IIRC with regular ammo. Then of course, the assertion that the Red Army only had 45, 76, and 152 mm guns. 122 mm howitzers were also divisional artillery, so they were as common as 76 mm guns were, and also packed a wallop. As someone else mentioned, there were also 52-K 85 mm AA guns that performed very well against Tigers, much like the Flak 36 performed against KVs, and A-19 122 mm guns. Any of those could knock out a Tiger at basically any effective range. Oh, and the 57 mm ZiS-2, basically a gun that was made to fight Tigers before Tigers existed. To add a final bit of spergery, the 152 mm ML-20 wasn't a "heavy howitzer", it was a gun-howitzer. The author also completely ignores the fact that the Soviets use AT guns and AT mines in combination, Tigers or no Tigers. Ensign Expendable fucked around with this message at 18:52 on Feb 19, 2016 |
# ? Feb 19, 2016 18:48 |
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Ensign Expendable posted:
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# ? Feb 19, 2016 18:59 |
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my dad posted:Care to explain? Well, they made SS divisions based on Nazi ideology, so if you are talking foreigners, SS units got made if your ethnicity somehow made a positive contribution to the Nazi world view. The first Foreign legion style SS division, the 13th, was made up of Muslim Croats, because 1) Muslims hate Jews, and 2) Croatians were not 'real slavs' anyway. These guys were used for anti-partisan operations in the Balkans, where (in addition to fighting communist guerrillas) they were fighting the people (IE Serbs, Bosnians) that they had been fighting against for generations anyway. Those guys worked well as anti-partisans. The 21st Waffen-SS, not so much. This division was formed mostly from Albanians, and once equipped and trained (to fight partasins, natch) they instead did what they really wanted to do: create a greater Albania free of Serbs, Jews, and Gypsies. The 21st killed thousands from these groups. In the end of 1944, the Germans were getting out of Greece and wanted to bring the 21st Waffen-SS with them to kill people not blocking the way of the Greater Albania project, and most of the 21st deserted rather than continue to fight for Germany.
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# ? Feb 19, 2016 19:02 |
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HEY GAL posted:i goddamn love mid-20th-century aesthetics, look at that typeface and those shapes Also your guys would love this book, it contains very many pictures of naked women and a sausage analogy
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# ? Feb 19, 2016 19:04 |
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It is also based on a misunderstanding of the purpose of mines. They're not expected to inflict mass casualties, because a unit that runs into a minefield will withdraw and find a different route instead of milling around taking more casualties. They're for area denial. You can't pass through a minefield until it is cleared by engineers, which takes a very long time. This allows the defender to exert some control over enemy movement and potentially channel it to the places they'd prefer them to go. On the defensive the Soviets used mines as part of their "antitank front" tactics. The main element was concealed interlocking antitank batteries. The mines were used to deter enemy maneuver except on routes that exposed them to fire from multiple angles by different batteries.
Schenck v. U.S. fucked around with this message at 21:10 on Feb 19, 2016 |
# ? Feb 19, 2016 19:37 |
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From a bit back but:LeadSled posted:Mind you, Jackson was a man who enjoyed sucking on lemons and didn't add pepper to his food 'because it made his leg ache' Lemons are legit tasty. Sliced lemon is my crunch-time writing snack of choice. Also just a touch of SS talk: If you're looking at how they were equipped it is all the gently caress over the place and you pretty much have to chart it year by year. Pre-war they were a total loving dumpster fire when it came to outfitting units. For the longest time the Wehrmacht fought tooth and nail to prevent Himmler's little private army from getting any gear, to the point where they actively obstructed them from becoming part of military contracts. The issue of rifles is really illustrative: the SS had a damned hard time getting K98ks in any numbers, which directly resulted in them doing all kinds of crazy refurb operations where they shortened WW1-era G98s into something approximating the newer design. This arms procurement clusterfuck went on for a surprisingly long time and was one of the major reasons why the SS wanted to bring entire factories under its control. If you've ever wondered why the decided to make some of Germany's fancy new semi-automatic rifles in a concentration camp part of the answer is because that was a supply chain the SS could reliably control. This gets better later on, but it's always a point of contention. It should be noted that it didn't get better in that the Heer started sharing its toys, it got better because they set up a parallel SS Procurement Office that got more and more clout to do things like get contracts for small arms shipments. Even then a lot of those were filled by factories reworking previously rejected parts, guns that were depot repaired after being hosed up in the field, etc. From what I recall only Steyr ever made runs of new rifles for the SS (not that they never got them - a number of shipments of rifles intended for the Heer were basically commandeered, which was one of the things that made the procurement pissing match all the worse). The long and the short is that the notion that the SS were given first pick of the best poo poo is really inaccurate in a lot of ways. When they did it was generally because someone in the Party pulled strings to have equipment diverted from the Heer. Remember: their procurement system was so precarious that they wanted an industrial base apart from the Army, and took some baby steps towards getting it. The other thing to remember is that the more fanatical SS units tended to suffer really outsized casualties. Look up the attrition rates for the SS Hitlerjugend division, which was mostly drawn from Hitler Youth volunteers. The older, 17-18 year old guys, especially those in leadership positions, not the little kids. This wasn't late war 15 year olds with panzerfaust stuff. They were absolute fanatical and got ground into paste because of it. Cyrano4747 fucked around with this message at 19:54 on Feb 19, 2016 |
# ? Feb 19, 2016 19:52 |
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Also, the SS didn't include the best division Germany fielded, Panzer Lehr. Those guys were as good as you'd expect the cream of the crop that got skimmed to teach to be. If anybody's got a claim on the title of teutonic supermen it's them.
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# ? Feb 19, 2016 20:10 |
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Fangz posted:The British Free Corps was a complete farce. We at least got an episode of Foyle's War out of them. Ensign Expendable posted:Also your guys would love this book, it contains very many pictures of naked women and a sausage analogy I was quite disappointed when the Strv 103 manual did not include gratuitous nudity (not really).
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# ? Feb 19, 2016 20:36 |
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Cyrano4747 posted:From a bit back but:
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# ? Feb 19, 2016 20:46 |
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LostCosmonaut posted:I was quite disappointed when the Strv 103 manual did not include gratuitous nudity (not really). The U.S. didn't need gratuitous nudity because we had the world's sexiest flight manuals. Basically the armed forces pulled all the top commercial and industrial artists and had them design these, so they all have the same gorgeous craftsmanship as the print ads of the period. Vincent Van Goatse fucked around with this message at 20:58 on Feb 19, 2016 |
# ? Feb 19, 2016 20:48 |
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What is this from?
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# ? Feb 19, 2016 20:49 |
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ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:The U.S. didn't need gratuitous nudity because we had the world's sexiest flight manuals. This is an incredible read/view/whatever for anyone who has never seen it. It is just right mix of slick and nerdy and silly.
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# ? Feb 19, 2016 20:56 |
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Pellisworth posted:"octopuses" - more than one octopus Actually, the word for two of them is hexadecapus and so on. For a group in general, it's polyoctopus.
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# ? Feb 19, 2016 21:25 |
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EvanSchenck posted:It is also based on a misunderstanding of the purpose of mines. They're not expected to inflict mass casualties, because a unit that runs into a minefield will withdraw and find a different route instead of milling around taking more casualties. They're for area denial. You can't pass through a minefield until it is cleared by engineers, which takes a very long time. Looks like someone forgot to tell Zhukov this fact while we has learning.
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# ? Feb 19, 2016 21:51 |
So which goon is going to look into all that history light comedy stuff coming to the History channel?
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# ? Feb 19, 2016 21:53 |
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SeanBeansShako posted:So which goon is going to look into all that history light comedy stuff coming to the History channel?
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# ? Feb 19, 2016 21:58 |
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HEY GAL posted:is any of it early modern The real question is whether any of it is history, or if they've finally stopped their wall-to-wall Ice Road Pawn Fisherman marathons.
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# ? Feb 19, 2016 22:00 |
It's about history, but in the comedy sense. Which means it could either go Hark A Vagrant or be terrible. Some brave goon must be our canary.
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# ? Feb 19, 2016 22:03 |
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Cyrano4747 posted:What is this from? Just saw it in the Gif thread in GBS
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# ? Feb 19, 2016 22:04 |
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i think it's from some thing about "how to be mexican," since one element of that is "citrus ---> everything"
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# ? Feb 19, 2016 22:05 |
HEY GAL posted:is any of it early modern It looks like a mix of well everything, I guess it depends on the mood of the guest stars and what they like?
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# ? Feb 19, 2016 22:09 |
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HEY GAL if you looked at those flight manuals I posted, imagine if Wallenstein had issued a manual of arms to his troops and had it illustrated and printed by whoever the Michaelangelo of the 17th century Holy Roman Empire was. That's what you're looking at in those manuals.
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# ? Feb 19, 2016 22:10 |
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ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:HEY GAL if you looked at those flight manuals I posted, imagine if Wallenstein had issued a manual of arms to his troops and had it illustrated and printed by whoever the Michaelangelo of the 17th century Holy Roman Empire was. edit: the example you're looking at almost happened, which is that Maurice of Nassau's Kriegsbuch had lovely engravings done by a dude named de Gheyn in them. The comparison isn't exact though, de Gheyn was not as big a deal as, say, Rembrandt. I would kill people for a Rembrandt manual of arms--or Rubens or Titian, I guess, if you were pro-Spanish/pro-Imperial. But those guys would have been much less likely to put out a manual of arms in the first place. HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 22:29 on Feb 19, 2016 |
# ? Feb 19, 2016 22:15 |
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EvanSchenck posted:It is also based on a misunderstanding of the purpose of mines. They're not expected to inflict mass casualties, because a unit that runs into a minefield will withdraw and find a different route instead of milling around taking more casualties. They're for area denial. You can't pass through a minefield until it is cleared by engineers, which takes a very long time. This allows the defender to exert some control over enemy movement and potentially channel it to the places they'd prefer them to go. On the defensive the Soviets used mines as part of their "antitank front" tactics. The main element was concealed interlocking antitank batteries. The mines were used to deter enemy maneuver except on routes that exposed them to fire from multiple angles by different batteries. Waiting is for losers.
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# ? Feb 19, 2016 22:17 |
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It's kinda weird how the Germans delayed Citadel for months to get a few Panthers into the mix, but never tried to come up with a solution to the minefield problem, yeah.
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# ? Feb 19, 2016 22:24 |
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Nebakenezzer posted:they were fighting the people that they had been fighting against for generations anyway How did they manage to fight for generations? Was there a territorial conflict of some sort? I always get confused with all this Balkans stuff.
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# ? Feb 19, 2016 22:44 |
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my dad posted:How did they manage to fight for generations? Was there a territorial conflict of some sort? I always get confused with all this Balkans stuff. To be honest, dude, me too. I just toss it into a bucket of "sectarian-ethnic strife" and forget about it. A bunch of people hate each other because religion/ethnic groups, and you rumble that around for a few hundred years and you have a bunch of people who hate each other for wrongs done to their ancestors because of religious/ethnic groups.
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# ? Feb 19, 2016 22:59 |
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Nebakenezzer posted:To be honest, dude, me too. I just toss it into a bucket of "sectarian-ethnic strife" and forget about it. A bunch of people hate each other because religion/ethnic groups, and you rumble that around for a few hundred years and you have a bunch of people who hate each other for wrongs done to their ancestors because of religious/ethnic groups. My Dad is from that area bro
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# ? Feb 19, 2016 23:04 |
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Xerxes17 posted:My Dad is from that area bro
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# ? Feb 19, 2016 23:24 |
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Xerxes17 posted:My Dad is from that area bro Really? What country is your dad from?
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# ? Feb 20, 2016 00:26 |
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bewbies posted:This is an incredible read/view/whatever for anyone who has never seen it. It is just right mix of slick and nerdy and silly. Namely poo poo like this: This is page 79 of the B-29 training manual (it's linked as the word "manuals" in the post where the rest are linked). Don't try pulling your loving B-29 Superfortress inverted and rolling out of it like a loving fighter, you nimrods.
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# ? Feb 20, 2016 01:57 |
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# ? May 27, 2024 09:23 |
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FAUXTON posted:Namely poo poo like this: Now I want to see some crazy mofo doing an Immelmann in the B-29.
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# ? Feb 20, 2016 02:20 |