Newbie Programming Interviews/Get a Job Megathread: Fake it 'til you make it

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Serious Hardware/Software Crap > The Cavern of COBOL > Newbie Programming Interviews/Get a Job Megathread: Fake it 'til you make it

«‹›728 »

vileness fats: Sep 16, 2003; College Slice

JawKnee posted:

apologies, here is a link to one that won't disappear: https://www.dropbox.com/s/vwrixjzpr8lcncg/Resume_for_goons.pdf?dl=0

Trigger alert: Multi-File Renamer C/C++. No such thing and implies you don't know the difference, if you really used both say C and C++.

I would also normally expect the education section to be nearer the top as it's your main selling point with no work history, but I'm not in the US so things may be different over there.

sarehu posted:

SQL is central to like, every position. Unless they're using something gross like Mongo.

Depends what the position is, I haven't written code that touches a database in over 15 years.

# ? Feb 16, 2016 15:52

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? May 31, 2024 21:54

ExcessBLarg!: Sep 1, 2001

Basic SQL, namely being able to write "one line" select, insert, update, and delete queries is pretty much general knowledge. If you've used RDBMSes in the past--even just for school projects--you should be able to do those things in an interview or at least be conversant about them.

"Big data" certainly involves SQL, but goes far beyond it as many of the original "big data" problems exceeded the limits of what could be efficiently done with off-the-shelf RDBMSes, thus resulting in the plethora of new technologies built around them.

I wouldn't necessarily turn away an interview candidate for not having knowledge of SQL if he or she had knowledge of some other database, file systems, or other data storage technology. Having no data storage experience is a flag, and it's something you'd want to address if applying for backend engineering roles.

# ? Feb 16, 2016 16:05

Thermopyle: Jul 1, 2003; ...the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt. �Bertrand Russell

I'm just guessing here, but in the general case it sounds like spending an hour reading about SQL is enough to get past the "knows SQL" check...

# ? Feb 16, 2016 16:57

Kuule hain nussivan: Nov 27, 2008

UnfurledSails posted:

That's like my nightmare scenario for a first interview. I may figure out a solution to a difficult problem by thinking about it for a while, but usually I just google or refer to some doc when it comes to "knowledge" stuff like specific language features.

Yeah, I had to "I don't know, but I figure..." to a few questions either because the term they used was unfamiliar to me or because I couldn't remember how a certain class was implemented. But I'll hear back from them in a week no matter how it went. If nothing else, it was a good experience.

# ? Feb 16, 2016 20:42

the talent deficit: Dec 20, 2003; self-deprecation is a very british trait, and problems can arise when the british attempt to do so with a foreign culture

Thermopyle posted:

I'm just guessing here, but in the general case it sounds like spending an hour reading about SQL is enough to get past the "knows SQL" check...

we're like an all postgres/spark company so maybe our standards are higher but i usually show interviewees a pretty basic schema with 3 or 4 tables and ask them to explain some sample queries. i never ask interviewees to write code because i can barely do that with 18 windows open with documentation, but i expect they can read it. if they seem like they have a pretty good handle on it i'll usually ask them to walk me through creating a new query

# ? Feb 16, 2016 22:24

sarehu: Apr 20, 2007; (call/cc call/cc)

I got an SQL question once (fresh out of college) and couldn't answer it, because I'd never fathomed joining a table against itself :science:

vileness fats posted:

Depends what the position is, I haven't written code that touches a database in over 15 years.

Well, yeah :-)

What's funny is that database design has influenced my in-memory software design. I'm much more likely to throw up a big array or three in memory and have some secondary structures to query that efficiently. I don't remember what I would have done before, but I remember one day thinking "I know, I'll kinda do this like a database!" Before, I'd like, try to make some home-rolled bidirectional map or something insane like that.

# ? Feb 16, 2016 22:39

JawKnee: Mar 24, 2007; You'll take the ride to leave this town along that yellow line

the talent deficit posted:

we're like an all postgres/spark company so maybe our standards are higher but i usually show interviewees a pretty basic schema with 3 or 4 tables and ask them to explain some sample queries. i never ask interviewees to write code because i can barely do that with 18 windows open with documentation, but i expect they can read it. if they seem like they have a pretty good handle on it i'll usually ask them to walk me through creating a new query

That's definitely something I could handle depending on how complex the query got.

vileness fats posted:

If you really used both say C and C++.

That's the intention behind the / but if spelling it out is better then I will - was just looking to save space as the page is getting somewhat cluttered

quote:

I would also normally expect the education section to be nearer the top as it's your main selling point with no work history, but I'm not in the US so things may be different over there.

I'm Canadian, but I'll be applying to markets elsewhere - predominant advice I've gotten is that Education, while more important than unrelated work experience, should probably come after projects - where are you that the opposite is true?

csammis posted:

Without saying anything about lying or not lying on your resume, if it's on there then you should be able to talk about it for five minutes. If I saw "SQL" on a resume I would at least ask about the level of experience, what database engines they'd used, and so on. Seeing "SQL Server 2010/2012" is oddly specific enough that I'd probably want to get into it a bit.

That's what I've used - and my experience was entirely with school stuff (Database courses, and we touched on some stuff in an intro AI course though totally superficially there)

# ? Feb 16, 2016 22:40

vileness fats: Sep 16, 2003; College Slice

sarehu posted:

What's funny is that database design has influenced my in-memory software design. I'm much more likely to throw up a big array or three in memory and have some secondary structures to query that efficiently. I don't remember what I would have done before, but I remember one day thinking "I know, I'll kinda do this like a database!" Before, I'd like, try to make some home-rolled bidirectional map or something insane like that.

Absolutely there are a lot of important concepts in there (my first job was as a "pure" database programmer, back when those existed), but if you're looking for a systems programming job it's unlikely anyone is going to care much about SQL.

JawKnee posted:

I'm Canadian, but I'll be applying to markets elsewhere - predominant advice I've gotten is that Education, while more important than unrelated work experience, should probably come after projects - where are you that the opposite is true?

I have worked & recruited in the UK, US (briefly & only NYC) , Australia & NZ... but I've only ever been hiring for senior positions and in a specific industry, so take my advice with a (large) pinch of salt.

For a senior position, projects are usually of negligible value so I'm probably not used to seeing them.

For me, hiring a grad I'd want to see "Jawknee, who has a CS degree from X and has also completed these projects" rather than "Jawknee who has completed these projects, and also has a CS degree from X". I suppose ultimately, as long as it's on the first page it doesn't really matter... and there's only one page.

But then, as a potential employer I probably wouldn't really care about your projects (terrible I know), as I'm just going to put you through our technical tests anyway. For me the projects are a good sign, and put you above others with similar education who have _no_ projects, but not much more than that unless they are specifically relevant.

Remember your CV is just to get you to the next stage after all, and as a busy tech lead I'm not going to waste a lot of time on it (researching home projects) as it could be all bullshit, and I have 50 to go through. Apparently some people love applicants having stuff on github though, so it may be a winner for some positions.

I am also slightly triggered by Experienced in C++, as the "junior guy" in my team has more than 10 years commercial C++ experience. I have no suggestions on how better to word it (assuming you are good), but if you were interviewed/tested by someone like me (god forbid) you have invited a good technical working over.

JawKnee posted:

That's the intention behind the / but if spelling it out is better then I will - was just looking to save space as the page is getting somewhat cluttered

Maybe C, C++? Having C/C++ sets off warning bells for me.

# ? Feb 17, 2016 03:37

Mniot: May 22, 2003; Not the one you know

In the past when I've written "C/C++" on my resume, I meant "C code compiled with a C++ compiler" or maybe more accurately "C++ code that is not object-oriented".

Something like this:

code:

#include <stdio.h>

int main(int argc, char**argv) {
  for (int i = 1; i <= 100; i++) {
    bool num = true;
    if (i % 3 == 0) {
      printf("fizz");
      num = false;
    }
    if (i % 5 == 0) {
      printf("buzz");
      num = false;
    }
    if (num) {
      printf("%d", i);
    }
    printf("\n");
  }
}

When I've talked to recent grads, they usually mean the same thing. How would you describe that on a resume?

# ? Feb 17, 2016 06:30

KernelSlanders: May 27, 2013; Rogue operating systems on occasion spread lies and rumors about me.

Mniot posted:

In the past when I've written "C/C++" on my resume, I meant "C code compiled with a C++ compiler" or maybe more accurately "C++ code that is not object-oriented".

Something like this:
code:
#include <stdio.h>

int main(int argc, char**argv) {
  for (int i = 1; i <= 100; i++) {
    bool num = true;
    if (i % 3 == 0) {
      printf("fizz");
      num = false;
    }
    if (i % 5 == 0) {
      printf("buzz");
      num = false;
    }
    if (num) {
      printf("%d", i);
    }
    printf("\n");
  }
}
When I've talked to recent grads, they usually mean the same thing. How would you describe that on a resume?

# ? Feb 17, 2016 07:17

FamDav: Mar 29, 2008

Mniot posted:

In the past when I've written "C/C++" on my resume, I meant "C code compiled with a C++ compiler" or maybe more accurately "C++ code that is not object-oriented".

Something like this:
code:
#include <stdio.h>

int main(int argc, char**argv) {
  for (int i = 1; i <= 100; i++) {
    bool num = true;
    if (i % 3 == 0) {
      printf("fizz");
      num = false;
    }
    if (i % 5 == 0) {
      printf("buzz");
      num = false;
    }
    if (num) {
      printf("%d", i);
    }
    printf("\n");
  }
}
When I've talked to recent grads, they usually mean the same thing. How would you describe that on a resume?

poorly spaced C

# ? Feb 17, 2016 07:18

sarehu: Apr 20, 2007; (call/cc call/cc)

Mniot posted:

code:


    bool num = true;

Technically C++ because it uses bool with no stdbool.h include, but that's essentially C.

# ? Feb 17, 2016 07:36

MRLOLAST: May 9, 2013

OK so I have new completed my SAP ABAP programming course and got good grades even though I did it in Dutch which is not my native language. I all ready have several job offers as a junior technical SAP consultant and have a hard time deciding which company to work for. I have 2 in particular that I like.
The first contender is a smaller company which is part of larger group and very specialized in an particular area of finance. I have met almost all of my future colleagues and they are very warm and friendly. I will basically get a running start and will need to develop my skillset quickly there but the job is mostly based around one software that you implement with SAP.
The second is a huge company with a very professional consultancy reputation and always working on lots of different projects using all kinds of new technology. I haven't received as much good feelings from them and they are based quite far from where I live. I assume that when I start as a junior there it will take a long time before I am given much real responsibility.
Long term big company might be a better bet but I think I will go to the smaller company to get a good start and then see what happens years in the future. Salary and terms ( car , computer ect) is a wash.
Does it sound like a good plan?

# ? Feb 17, 2016 14:31

ExcessBLarg!: Sep 1, 2001

Mniot posted:

I meant "C code compiled with a C++ compiler" ...�When I've talked to recent grads, they usually mean the same thing.

This is the red flag. Yes, C90 code is mostly compatible with C++98 or whatever, but the two languages have drifted apart both technically in their standards, and very much so idiomatically. To be on the fence about which language one is writing means the depth of usage is probably low (which could be fine in itself), and that he or she is not even aware of how the languages are distinct. At one time "C/C++" could refer to the amalgam of writing code with C standard library functions (e.g., stdio vs. iostream) while using classes, but that's a pretty superficial mix of both language features that ignores 20 years of growth for both of them. Perhaps that is someone's experience, which is fine, but I'd be candid about that.

Obviously, it matters more if applying for a position that involves writing a significant amount of C or C++ code. But even for position that don't, it trips my "how much does the interviewee actually know about things on his or her resume?" alarm.

# ? Feb 17, 2016 15:31

KernelSlanders: May 27, 2013; Rogue operating systems on occasion spread lies and rumors about me.

I built an embedded system that used C for all of the low level IO/Motor control and C++ for the state logic and behavioral heuristics. What would you call that?

# ? Feb 18, 2016 06:59

vileness fats: Sep 16, 2003; College Slice

KernelSlanders posted:

I built an embedded system that used C for all of the low level IO/Motor control and C++ for the state logic and behavioral heuristics. What would you call that?

You used 2 different languages. How would you describe it if you used, say, C and Erlang? Same thing.

# ? Feb 18, 2016 08:45

sarehu: Apr 20, 2007; (call/cc call/cc)

vileness fats posted:

You used 2 different languages. How would you describe it if you used, say, C and Erlang? Same thing.

"I used C/Erlang to implement by IO/Motor control."

Which is dumb to say because IO is completely different from motors.

# ? Feb 18, 2016 08:56

Che Delilas: Nov 23, 2009; FREE TIBET WEED

KernelSlanders posted:

I built an embedded system that used C for all of the low level IO/Motor control and C++ for the state logic and behavioral heuristics. What would you call that?

- Built state-driven embedded motor control system using C and C++

# ? Feb 18, 2016 20:03

MRLOLAST: May 9, 2013

Signed with the smaller friendlier company. Will do SAP ABAP OO programming and use ReadSoft + functional SAP consulting. Got a permanent contract, get to choose a leasing car, phone + laptop and a decent salary.
Doing the SAP ABAP programming course is probably one of the smarter decision I have made recently. There is hope for +30 dudes with Pol Sci degrees =)
Was enjoyable reading this thread even though I am in Europe and some thing's did not apply.

# ? Feb 19, 2016 12:41

Kuule hain nussivan: Nov 27, 2008

So I got offered the job, going over there on monday to read through and sign the contract. Kind of psyched, hope it turns out good.

Oh, apparently my role will require me to get certification for IBM DataStage. I've never had to use it in anyway, but I figure a cert is never a bad thing. Any idea how marketable it is?

# ? Feb 19, 2016 17:38

Doghouse: Oct 22, 2004; I was playing Harvest Moon 64 with this kid who lived on my street and my cows were not doing well and I got so raged up and frustrated that my eyes welled up with tears and my friend was like are you crying dude. Are you crying because of the cows. I didn't understand the feeding mechanic.

I need some advice on how to make the most of my situation.

Basically I left my first job after 1.5 years so I could relocate with my family, for family reasons. I've been working at a large defense company for 3 months and it's a nightmare.

Besides having literally nothing for me to do yet (the project I'm supposed to be on doesn't even have initial requirements written up yet), it's a terrible culture, the code base is garbage, the database design is crazy (every table and column is named with acronyms, like "BGR_12R_QTY" or "ASAC_KY_GRC_14"), the tools we can use are heavily restricted (my manager had never heard of an orm when i mentioned it and i am apparently not authorized to use any form of orm for the project, it took me almost a month to be able to download visual studio, etc etc), there is no testing at all, there are endless meetings about nothing, endless beaurocracy, red tape, documentation about nothing, tons and tons of incomprehensible processes and procedures, and so on and so forth.

I probably made a mistake taking the job, but here I am. I've been pursuing other opportunities but with no luck. I had 2 rounds of interviews with a cool company and apparently did well on the first, more technical one, but after meeting with a couple VP/dev lead people in the 2nd interview, they turned me down. Other companies in the area are either only hiring more senior devs, or paying very low, or not calling me for interviews.

So, eh, how can I best use my time here? I'm probably going to take a break from actively looking for something else for a while, since it got pretty frustrating. I'm trying to keep myself busy at work by self-teaching what i can - I'm working on learning .net mvc right now and working on a web app with it as a personal project - but I am nervous that my career development is going to be messed up.

Any ideas or tips?

# ? Feb 19, 2016 19:41

mitztronic: Jun 17, 2005; mixcloud.com/mitztronic

I'm currently in aerospace which is largely associated with the defense industry. I'm not a programmer (yet, working on making the jump), but my recommendation from a sanity point of view* is to get out as soon as possible, so keep applying until something sticks. You described the reasons in your post: "terrible culture" "code base is garbage" and "design is crazy", this applies to every single part of this industry. Because of these, and other reasons, the entire industry is incestuous - the longer you stay in it, the less industries outside of it will want you because you'll be viewed as worthless. on the flip side, if you can handle all the trash, you can easily move to another defense company with just a personality interview. IMO - not worth it.

Again, not a programmer, but I have seen this in every single compartment in my company from electrical to mechanical. I have a friend who recently transferred over to one of our software fields, and he says it's just as bad.

*obviously quitting a job before that "magic" 1yr/2yr mark looks bad, but if you can explain why you left you might be OK

mitztronic fucked around with this message at 20:14 on Feb 19, 2016

# ? Feb 19, 2016 20:12

Jeb Bush 2012: Apr 4, 2007; A mathematician, like a painter or poet, is a maker of patterns. If his patterns are more permanent than theirs, it is because they are made with ideas.

What do you say when a company asks you (approximately) how many lines of code you've written in a language? I don't really have an intuition for how much code I wrote each day when I was working (I'm doing a PhD at the moment and applying for summer internships), and I'm not able to go back and check.

# ? Feb 19, 2016 20:38

JawKnee: Mar 24, 2007; You'll take the ride to leave this town along that yellow line

I might wonder why they want to know seeing as the number of lines of code doesn't really indicate anything

I mean unless it's '0'

# ? Feb 19, 2016 20:47

Jeb Bush 2012: Apr 4, 2007; A mathematician, like a painter or poet, is a maker of patterns. If his patterns are more permanent than theirs, it is because they are made with ideas.

JawKnee posted:

I might wonder why they want to know seeing as the number of lines of code doesn't really indicate anything

I mean unless it's '0'

I'm assuming it's another way of expressing the "do you know a) a bit b) some c) a lot about this language" question. It does seem a bit silly to me, yeah. (the company is google fwiw)

# ? Feb 19, 2016 20:52

Gounads: Mar 13, 2013; Where am I?
How did I get here?

Jeb Bush 2012 posted:

What do you say when a company asks you (approximately) how many lines of code you've written in a language? I don't really have an intuition for how much code I wrote each day when I was working (I'm doing a PhD at the moment and applying for summer internships), and I'm not able to go back and check.

Make up an overly precise, very large, number.

6,405,307

# ? Feb 19, 2016 20:57

Vincent Valentine: Feb 28, 2006; Murdertime

Isn't the goal of programming to have as few lines as possible? Ask him what Par is and give him a negative number, refer to programs you've shown him in golf terms like birdie or eagle.

# ? Feb 19, 2016 22:43

CPColin: Sep 9, 2003; Big ol' smile.

Vincent Valentine posted:

Isn't the goal of programming to have as few lines as possible?

No!

# ? Feb 19, 2016 22:46

New Yorp New Yorp: Jul 18, 2003; Only in Kenya.; Pillbug

Vincent Valentine posted:

Isn't the goal of programming to have as few lines as possible?

The goal of programming is to have a working solution to a problem that is maintainable by other people ("future you" counts as "other people").

# ? Feb 19, 2016 22:49

Jeb Bush 2012: Apr 4, 2007; A mathematician, like a painter or poet, is a maker of patterns. If his patterns are more permanent than theirs, it is because they are made with ideas.

The goal of programming is to turn social disfunction into money

# ? Feb 19, 2016 23:00

uninverted: Nov 10, 2011

Vincent Valentine posted:

Isn't the goal of programming to have as few lines as possible? Ask him what Par is and give him a negative number, refer to programs you've shown him in golf terms like birdie or eagle.

Screw the haters, if you can write your program with 50 lines of incomprehensible lisp then go for it.

# ? Feb 19, 2016 23:28

Plorkyeran: Mar 22, 2007; To Escape The Shackles Of The Old Forums, We Must Reject The Tribal Negativity He Endorsed

JawKnee posted:

I might wonder why they want to know seeing as the number of lines of code doesn't really indicate anything

I mean unless it's '0'

The order of magnitude is somewhat indicative. The level of knowledge I expect out of someone that's written roughly 10k lines in a language is going to be quite different from someone that's vaguely around 100k.

# ? Feb 19, 2016 23:42

Vincent Valentine: Feb 28, 2006; Murdertime

Ithaqua posted:

The goal of programming is to have a working solution to a problem that is maintainable by other people ("future you" counts as "other people").

Yeah, you right. I was gonna mention how within reasonable legibility as few as possible is ideal, but that's still not necessarily true so I stand corrected.

# ? Feb 20, 2016 02:12

let i hug: Dec 25, 2011

Plorkyeran posted:

The order of magnitude is somewhat indicative. The level of knowledge I expect out of someone that's written roughly 10k lines in a language is going to be quite different from someone that's vaguely around 100k.

This, especially during the college/grad school -> industry jump because you could be good with theory and bad with code. Another reasonable question of the same sort might be "what's the largest code base you've ever been personally responsible for (and in what language)?" because a lot of people don't "get" things like testing until they have to work in a 100k+ LOC environment.

# ? Feb 22, 2016 03:20

Hadlock: Nov 9, 2004

What is the pay situation like out at GE Research in San Ramon? It looks like engineers are averaging about $99 but other positions can run as little as half that?

# ? Feb 23, 2016 18:03

sarehu: Apr 20, 2007; (call/cc call/cc)

Hadlock posted:

What is the pay situation like out at GE Research in San Ramon? It looks like engineers are averaging about $99 but other positions can run as little as half that?

Oh it's great, good people are pulling down $300-600K there.

# ? Feb 25, 2016 05:31

Hadlock: Nov 9, 2004

sarehu posted:

Oh it's great, good people are pulling down $300-600K there.

That... does not match glassdoor at all, where are you hearing that? What about their marketing staff, operations people, etc?

# ? Feb 25, 2016 08:02

Cicero: Dec 17, 2003; Jumpjet, melta, jumpjet. Repeat for ten minutes or until victory is assured.

I think shrughes is being facetious.

# ? Feb 25, 2016 08:30

metztli: Mar 19, 2006; Which lead to the obvious photoshop, making me suspect that their ad agencies or creative types must be aware of what goes on at SA

Ithaqua posted:

The goal of programming is to have a working solution to a problem that is maintainable by other people ("future you" counts as "other people").

I'm convinced time travel will come about purely so developers can go back in time and tell themselves to stop trying to be clever.

# ? Feb 25, 2016 19:23

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? May 31, 2024 21:54

Rattus: Sep 11, 2005; A rat, in a hat!

metztli posted:

I'm convinced time travel will come about purely so developers can go back in time and tell themselves to stop trying to be clever.

http://www.commitstrip.com/en/2016/01/18/what-idiot-wrote-this-code/

# ? Feb 25, 2016 22:52

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Serious Hardware/Software Crap > The Cavern of COBOL > Newbie Programming Interviews/Get a Job Megathread: Fake it 'til you make it

«‹›728 »