|
I agree that the Leper's a lot more usable now, but it's not quite fair to compare his weakness to things like the Hellion's squishiness or the Crusader's speed, since both of those can be improved with trinkets and buffs, while there's no trinket or buff in the game that lets you move farther or use your abilities on / from more positions. Besides, the Leper's bad stat which is analogous to those isn't his movement or his targeting, but his accuracy. Your Vestal analogy is much more convincing, but since in general you save more HP in this game by killing stuff faster than you do by healing, losing a Vestal's turn is often a smaller problem than losing a turn by your damage dealer. All in all I guess I would say that the Leper's problem is he's just less reliable than most other frontline options. He has the fewest alternatives if he gets moved (none), and even when he does attack he has the highest chance to whiff and waste his whole turn. Of course his upside is his nuclear powered fists, and those are absolutely no joke, but all in all I feel using the Leper in hard dungeons takes a bit more care in terms of the other party members. When he's performing then things are going great but I've definitely seen parties eat more than their share of bad crits because the Leper kept whiffing or getting depositioned and couldn't finish the job.
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2016 07:33
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 26, 2024 14:24 |
|
|
Even factoring in lower accuracy the Leper does more damage. Chop does more average damage per use than Point Blank Shot, and PBS has 30 more base Accuracy. No +ACC on anybody, 35 Dodge on a Champion enemy (which is fairly high but not uncommon), he's still doing more average damage than everybody but Hellions, Crusaders, and Abominations, and once +ACC is in the picture he's beating everyone but the transformed Abomination. The buff is a pretty big deal, though admittedly the Abomination is hanging with him pretty readily and is arguably more versatile since he has a Stun when untransformed. Average damage output is not the best metric, but it's also the only particularly fair one that doesn't fall back on anecdotals and hypotheticals. Sun/Moon Rings are so good for everybody at the moment that getting DMG and ACC is not too much of a compromise, and the Leper benefits more from the +ACC than anyone and tends to get a proportionately better boost from +DMG as well. There aren't many damage characters who are ballsy enough to run with no +ACC in Champion, except maybe the Grave Robber or Highwayman, so it's not like you build him radically different from most frontline DPS. Mzbundifund posted:Your Vestal analogy is much more convincing, but since in general you save more HP in this game by killing stuff faster than you do by healing, losing a Vestal's turn is often a smaller problem than losing a turn by your damage dealer.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2016 08:12
|
|
|
The difference between the vestal and the leper is that very few classes can do reliable healing, and no other class can heal the entire party. The vestal's role in the party is nowhere near as small as the lepers, who just punches stuff hard up front. Which is fine but a bunch of other classes can also punch stuff up front and do many things better than him (have utility skills, can hit the third/fourth row, have movement). The leper compensates by hitting stuff harder, but utility is almost always better than raw damage in this game. I mean its not just his lack of movement that makes me not use him, its that on top of everything else. He has zero utility. The closest he comes to having some is the corpse clear of purge but that is very limited in how often its useful. His debuff is crap against enemies with high resist since he never gets a trinket to improve it. You have to compare this to other classes you will often front line. The hellion can hit literally every position. The crusader has a stress heal, stun, and movement skill. The MaA has movement, stun, and guard. The leper having bigger numbers doesn't stack up to that stuff. Every time I've used a leper I've just found myself thinking "well I could be using X other class and this fight would be going better". I never find myself wishing I had taken a leper along instead. Internet Kraken fucked around with this message at 08:40 on Feb 19, 2016 |
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2016 08:38
|
|
|
I heartily disagree. While he can only self heal and self stress heal, those two are very powerful, and add extra benefits. His stress heal heals 13 at champion level per use which is HUGE, and also gives him more prot that stacks, up to +120%(!!!) prot at champion, which turns treebranch smackdowns into twig taps. His self heal heals 12+ at champion level and also gives him the equivalent of a holy water buff. Not having to worry about his stress levels or healing as much means you can focus on the other classes involved, and he also has oodles of health. His accuracy isn't fantastic but there's easy remedies for that. Chop is insanely strong and Hew can do upwards of 30+ to two enemies on a crit. His camping skills are no slouch either, with quarantine being a huge party stress heal for only 3 camping points at the expense of health(which can be replenished in one or two self heals), his 10 acc/5 crit buff is great, bloody shroud is also decent. I hear the hellion is good but I've always preferred the leper for a raw damage class, even if it can't reach the back rows. My experience with hellions is they are fairly squishy. I've never been a fan of self-debuffing classes in games, either.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2016 10:11
|
|
|
The problem with the Leper vs Vestal problem is that movement skills favor moving forward. So if your Vestal is moved to the front, the Crusader, Man at Arms, Bounty Hunter, Grave Robber, Jester and Highwayman all have skills to move them forward, and in turn move her back. The only skills that I can recall that moves you backwards are Point Blank Shot, which only pushes you one back, and Finale. In short, the lepers perceived movement problem is more that moving him forward doesn't really leave you with ways to speed it up. On the other hand if the Vestal is moved into Rank 1 or 2, there are more options to bump her back without wasting her turn and taking time. I honestly would be fine with the Leper if he could do his Self-Heals at Rank 3-4, because at least then even if I'm working around him, I'm able to build him up before moving him back into position. But he doesn't. The Leper isn't so much bad as he is horribly hosed by one of the games common mechanics, and most parties not having skills to make up for that problem.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2016 10:38
|
|
|
The other skill that moves backwards is the Grave Robber's Shadow Fade, which is more in some ways more situational than Point Blank Shot, because it's a stun move, but because it can be used from the second row, it's also a bit more versatile.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2016 10:45
|
|
|
I've got like 12 Grave Robbers in my roster for Tomb Raider runs, and Shadow Fade is great if you manage a turn order where the frontliner gets to go first, because then you can set up a double stun and a double lunge. If the second person goes first, then it's less good because it denies an extra Lunge from the third person. And if the third person goes first, then it's just all lunging, all the timeOnmi posted:The problem with the Leper vs Vestal problem is that movement skills favor moving forward. My standard loadout is vestal/PD/leper/leper or vestal/PD/leper/MAA. Having the MAA of course vastly increases the utility of the party with ludicrous speed and dodge boosts, a stun that moves him forward, and I have mace bash and bellow as his other abilities for damage/debuffing dodgy shits. Lepers have hew/chop/withstand/the heal skill, PD has blinding gas/plague grenade/disorienting blast/noxious blast, and the vestal has the standard party heal, single heal, judgement and stun. Lepers both have Berserker Masks, always. I never don't take it on my lepers. It makes them hit harder and often go before most anyone else, sometimes before the plague doctor! For lategame gear I slap the ancestor ring on one and the ancestor pen on the other, but solar rings work well earlier on. PD gets a blasphemous vial, again a must-have trinket and PDs might as well have only one trinket slot since it's basically required, and either a feather crystal for speed or the ancestor's musket ball, or ancestor's map. Vestal gets the very rare vestal scroll for healing, and the rare vestal healing book. Her heals with these two will, as noted above, be fairly ridiculous. With this party, if you ever start getting low on health or high stress on the lepers, if you encounter two melee cultists, pelagic guardian + grouper/two groupers, two fungal zombies, two skeleton crossbowmen, or other enemies that can only hit the front two spots in your party(or hell, it even works on Large enemies such as the giant crab, swinetaur, bone general, etc), kill everything else in the enemy group and clear the corpses, then spam withstand on the lepers, alternate stunning the enemies with disorienting blast(assuming the move works), and party heal repeatedly with the vestal. You'll clear the stress from the lepers, take only one attack a turn due to DB, and might even get lucky with crit party heals and reduce some extra stress along the way. It's great.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2016 11:07
|
|
|
Captain Invictus posted:I've got like 12 Grave Robbers in my roster for Tomb Raider runs, and Shadow Fade is great if you manage a turn order where the frontliner gets to go first, because then you can set up a double stun and a double lunge. If the second person goes first, then it's less good because it denies an extra Lunge from the third person. And if the third person goes first, then it's just all lunging, all the time Why are you using Masks over Charms and then putting an accuracy item as second?
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2016 13:04
|
|
|
edit: the berserk charm? I have literally never found one, and didn't even know it existed until you mentioned it, in 140 runs. I'd still use the mask over the charm though. Captain Invictus fucked around with this message at 14:34 on Feb 19, 2016 |
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2016 14:31
|
|
|
Does the Ancestor's Portrait increase Resolve XP for the entire party, or just the one person holding it? If it's just the one person that's kinda useless.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2016 16:02
|
|
|
+3 speed from the mask is insanely worth it especially if they have a +speed quirk like quickdraw, on-guard, or quick reflexes. Speed is an incredible stat for chewing out the enemy formation before they can significantly harm your team.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2016 16:28
|
|
|
A valid question, actually, related to the Berserk Charm/Mask and certain other trinkets: Which is worth more, +15% DMG or +3% CRIT? For a Leper at base lv5 values, +15% DMG takes his average per swing from 18.0 to 20.7. 3% CRIT only takes it up to 18.5. On a Grave Robber, +15% DMG takes her un-Marked Thrown Dagger from 12.5 to about 14.4 and 3% CRIT only pushes it to about 12.8. Even under super ideal circumstances like an Arbalest using Sniper Shot on a Marked target, the +DMG always beats the +CRIT. At least according to my understanding of the damage formula (additive boosts to the base damage, then multiply by the DMG modifier of the skill). Overall, 1% DMG and 1% CRIT seem to both increase expected damage output by around 1% depending on rounding; sometimes they're worth slightly more or slightly less since you're not getting fractional damage (Wicked Slice is not 5% weaker than Marked Pistol Shot for example, but it's close). So the 3% CRIT on the Berserk Mask is worth 1/5 the damage output the Berserk Charm provides, and you're really never going to find bonuses to critical rate that are equal to 15% or 25% DMG boosts. That's purely looking at the benefit to damage, of course, there's some intangible value to really high critical rate in terms of stress reduction and such, but that's a lot more dependent on the baseline chance from the character and skill. How Rude posted:+3 speed from the mask is insanely worth it especially if they have a +speed quirk like quickdraw, on-guard, or quick reflexes. Speed is an incredible stat for chewing out the enemy formation before they can significantly harm your team.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2016 16:35
|
|
|
Whilst in theory +damage is stronger over all crits are better for burst as they are a lot of damage. In practice the +damage is probably better every time but the point of increased crit chance isn't increasing average damage but making a big burst more likely.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2016 16:48
|
|
|
Lord_Magmar posted:Whilst in theory +damage is stronger over all crits are better for burst as they are a lot of damage. In practice the +damage is probably better every time but the point of increased crit chance isn't increasing average damage but making a big burst more likely. That said, there is one benefit +DMG provides to predictability that +CRIT does not: +DMG raises the minimum damage. When an enemy has 9 HP remaining, I'm a lot happier if my guy's damage range is 9-13 instead of 7-11. At that point, all I gotta do is hit.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2016 17:01
|
|
|
Crits also clear corpses, so I could see favoring them over damage on front-line grinders like the Leper and Crusader. That Jes/Abom/Abom/BH team I had didn't have any way to hit the fourth row, but under the Jester's battle buff, the Bounty Hunter would reliably crit the third row, bringing the last guy close enough to Manacle stun.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2016 17:10
|
|
|
Lord_Magmar posted:Whilst in theory +damage is stronger over all crits are better for burst as they are a lot of damage. In practice the +damage is probably better every time but the point of increased crit chance isn't increasing average damage but making a big burst more likely. The value of the burst differs from one class to another. Generally high damage classes have a stronger preference for +DMG: boosting their damage lets them hit kill thresholds more consistently, whereas their crits mostly mean a lot of wasted overkill damage. Adding +15% DMG to a leper will increase your odds of a one-hit kill more than adding +15% CRIT. Considering that most comparisons are more on the scale of +15% DMG vs. +3% CRIT it's a total no-brainer, even with the stress relief effects of crits. For a low damage class, though, you probably won't hit many one hit kill thresholds even with added damage, whereas a crit may be enough to push you over the top. They may need a bit of +DMG to start with to make sure their crits count, but after that point, 15% CRIT is vastly more valuable to them than +15% DMG even before you factor in the free stress relief on crits. (Of course, this is still somewhat academic since again, there are few situations where you choose between anything close to a 1-to-1 trade for DMG vs. CRIT.)
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2016 17:42
|
|
|
Crit is valuable on characters that have medium damage but high crit rate skills. Sacrificial stab and dagger throw on Occultist and Graverobber respectively have massively high crit rates which are made fairly common with +crit trinkets.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2016 18:22
|
|
|
Crits feel like something you want to boost but never rely on, since their percentage is still too low to count on.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2016 18:24
|
|
|
Internet Kraken posted:Pretty much. Its a problem with people building their teams around the ideal fights rather than the difficult ones. The hardest ones are always going to be the ones where your positioning gets screwed, and that's why I'll never really be able to like the Leper. He's far to crippled by movement. Exactly. Leper makes easy fights faster and the hardest fights harder. I still double-leper it sometimes to blow baddies up (for super retro faceroll action, use two lepers and turn off corpses).
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2016 18:26
|
|
|
I'm heading into Champion level dungeons now (over half my roster is level 5 and the what's left is pretty much one run each away from hitting that threshold) and I'm scared, I don't have the money to upgrade people. What's the advice on this again? Armor > Skills > Weapons?
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2016 18:40
|
|
|
Internet Kraken posted:Pretty much. Its a problem with people building their teams around the ideal fights rather than the difficult ones. The hardest ones are always going to be the ones where your positioning gets screwed, and that's why I'll never really be able to like the Leper. He's far to crippled by movement. Main reason I have such a problem with him. Granted its great when he hits and you cleave through enemies but when you get surprised or he gets pushed back? gently caress me.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2016 18:47
|
|
|
AnonSpore posted:I'm heading into Champion level dungeons now (over half my roster is level 5 and the what's left is pretty much one run each away from hitting that threshold) and I'm scared, I don't have the money to upgrade people. What's the advice on this again? Armor > Skills > Weapons? I went with weapons first, on the basis that higher speed and higher damage meant that I could blow up more enemies before they could get a turn off. Then I focused on stunning skills for higher stun chances and bleed/ blight skills for increased damage, then armor, then everything else.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2016 18:59
|
|
|
AnonSpore posted:I'm heading into Champion level dungeons now (over half my roster is level 5 and the what's left is pretty much one run each away from hitting that threshold) and I'm scared, I don't have the money to upgrade people. What's the advice on this again? Armor > Skills > Weapons? Skills are 100% highest priority. You don't necessarily have to upgrade EVERY skill, but attacks and stuns are absolutely vital. You need that accuracy, and will probably have to slot in trinkets with accuracy bonuses on most/all characters if you aren't already, because champion enemies dodge like crazy and you cannot afford to whiff. Armor vs. weapons both have their merits. The crucial thing you get from weapon upgrades is speed, so I prefer to upgrade armor before weapons and use +SPD trinkets/quirks to patch up speed problems.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2016 19:00
|
|
|
Regarding leper's problems with positioning, I'd actually kinda recommend the heavy boots trinket if you have it. In addition to the move resist it also provides 10% protection, which goes a long way given the leper's massive hp pool. Of course, it's using a trinket slot on something other than offense and it does nothing for your back-liners getting pulled, but it's something.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2016 19:05
|
|
|
For those in here who mod the game, how easy is it to make a new class if you reuse some other class' art files (unlike say all the custom classes over at the Nexus, which stand out like crazy)? I have some skill ideas I want to try out.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2016 20:53
|
|
|
 Stop hitting yourselves! No, seriously!
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2016 22:03
|
|
|
Captain Invictus posted:Does the Ancestor's Portrait increase Resolve XP for the entire party, or just the one person holding it? If it's just the one person that's kinda useless. Just for the wearer. It can be good if you want to powerlevel a character because you want a specific class for a boss or DD run.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2016 22:14
|
|
|
The Abomination was a backer created hero, right? He's such a well designed class. I loving hate how he can't group with three heroes though, two of which are really good (Vestal, Crusader.) I wish they found some other disadvantage to give him.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2016 22:17
|
|
|
It's such a weird disadvantage - it's not like he has some special synergy with those classes that would make it broken to team him up with them. You can mod it out if you like though.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2016 22:42
|
|
|
Alright, I'm going to give the 16 pounder another try. I appreciate the advice given to me earlier. I'm going to have a Hellion in rank 1 and a Vestal in rank 4. I'll happily take suggestions for the middle two.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2016 22:45
|
|
|
Mzbundifund posted:It's such a weird disadvantage - it's not like he has some special synergy with those classes that would make it broken to team him up with them. You can mod it out if you like though. Between this and the Vestals "if religious" effects, it feels like system of faith was originally going to be a bigger part of the morale concept, instead being almost entirely about stress.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2016 22:53
|
|
|
How many times can my dudes whiff??!! God man. Just lost an entire group of 5s and their trinkets.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2016 23:01
|
|
|
Mzbundifund posted:It's such a weird disadvantage - it's not like he has some special synergy with those classes that would make it broken to team him up with them. You can mod it out if you like though. Wait, really? Where is the parameter or whatever I have to edit?
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2016 23:04
|
|
|
Boosh! posted:How many times can my dudes whiff??!! God man. Just lost an entire group of 5s and their trinkets. Were your retreats failing? Because that can be really frustrating, but otherwise, you probably should have bailed. Trinkets are the games least renewable resource.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2016 23:05
|
|
|
Snak posted:Were your retreats failing? Because that can be really frustrating, but otherwise, you probably should have bailed. Trinkets are the games least renewable resource. It was a fight I would I would usually get through without a problem, being the first fight in a short clear 90% run. Got one unlucky death and kept whiffing until it was down to two vs. two and I gambled to get the trinkets from the two dead toons back at least and RNG continued to ream me hard. Arghh! Lost some beauts man.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2016 23:23
|
|
|
Something something overconfidence
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2016 23:26
|
|
|
Well that was depressing. This game is cool and good but I just lost Dismas, Reynauld and my main Healer on the first level of the Darkest Dungeon. I didn't read up online because I don't want to be lame, but I brought a bunch of utility with me anyway just in case as I had lots of money. Turns out you need probably 30+ bandages or some poo poo, which is a complete departure from any other level in the game so far. I got to the boss in good shape but I was out of bandages and they just stacked bleed over and over. Failed one retreat, missed killing blow, next round started and I just had three deathblows, two from AOE and one from bleed before taking my turn. Yeah, I know, game is hard etc. But that fight would have actually been trivial with bandages and I'm salty that there was zero indication I'd need a ludicrous amount. I already brought 10 which is like 2x as many as I would usually even consider.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2016 23:28
|
|
|
Azran posted:Wait, really? Where is the parameter or whatever I have to edit? It's the last line in heroes\abomination\abomination.info.darkest: incompatible_party_member: .id abomination_religion .hero_tag religious I think you can just delete that line entirely.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2016 23:33
|
|
|
Jeza posted:Well that was depressing. This game is cool and good but I just lost Dismas, Reynauld and my main Healer on the first level of the Darkest Dungeon. I didn't read up online because I don't want to be lame, but I brought a bunch of utility with me anyway just in case as I had lots of money. Turns out you need probably 30+ bandages or some poo poo, which is a complete departure from any other level in the game so far. I got to the boss in good shape but I was out of bandages and they just stacked bleed over and over. Failed one retreat, missed killing blow, next round started and I just had three deathblows, two from AOE and one from bleed before taking my turn. I think the way they expect you to beat the DD on your first campaign is to basically toss a handful of heroes down the chute as a learning tax and come back prepared. Lots of stuff changes in there, no curios, campfire ambushes, fixed dungeon layout, no traps, etc. etc.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2016 23:37
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 26, 2024 14:24 |
|
|
dyzzy posted:I think the way they expect you to beat the DD on your first campaign is to basically toss a handful of heroes down the chute as a learning tax and come back prepared. Lots of stuff changes in there, no curios, campfire ambushes, fixed dungeon layout, no traps, etc. etc. This is kind of bad design though because you automatically lose someone for pulling out, and the grind to get heroes to level 6 is pretty real.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2016 23:44
|
|
