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Am I correct in that Clarke hasn't actually killed anyone yet this season?
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Feb 19, 2016 22:52
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I mean, there's a difference between "forgiving" a society and not finding the leader of that society guilty of war crimes. Even as dually elected Chancellor, he attacked people who believed them to allies. They exploited the fact that they did not place sentries on the friendly side of their camp to exterminate them. The only way that Skaikru fall under the protection of the commander is as the 13th tribe. Now changing the ways from "Blood Must Have Blood" to "Blood Must Not Have Blood" doesn't mean that it can be acceptable for the internal politics of one of the coalition members to result in an act of war against another tribe. The old way was to punish the tribe. I will be amazing if the new way isn't to punish the criminal instead. This is a transition from a society of war, to a society of justice.
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Feb 19, 2016 23:00
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Kane and Abby had successfully thwarted the Pike massacre. It's difficult to pin this only on the leader, when people voted for him as Chancellor, specifically to enable him to carry out the plan of killing the Treekru army. You could have made the case that the Farm Station are a group of outsiders who showed up and co-opted the peaceful people of Arkadia, but thanks to the grounders there weren't enough of them left to install Pike as chancellor on their own. Some combination of the 100 and Kane's station voted to kill Indra's clan, with full knowledge of their history and current relationship.
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Feb 19, 2016 23:30
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It actually seems like Kane and Abby have done basically nothing to explane the political situation to the citizens of Arkadia. There has never been a scene where they explained to someone what is going on that that they have a plan. It actually seems like Clarke and Octavia are the only Arkers who a clue about how grounder culture works, and they Haven been proactive about educating people. But that's also not how democracy works. We're not pinning it on anyone, Pike gave the order. It's like saying that people who voted to re-elect Bush knew full well there weren't any WMDs in Iraq. But they didn't, because they were stupid and uneducated. (I mean, some of knew and were smart and educated, but not all of them)
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Feb 19, 2016 23:39
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Again, I would've liked an election episode.
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Feb 19, 2016 23:56
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Lycus posted:Again, I would've liked an election episode. Yeah, I'm kinda glad we didn't get one though. Election episodes are always the same plot elements. Once you've seen a half dozen, I feel like they stop being interesting.
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Feb 19, 2016 23:59
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Snak posted:It actually seems like Kane and Abby have done basically nothing to explane the political situation to the citizens of Arkadia. There has never been a scene where they explained to someone what is going on that that they have a plan. It actually seems like Clarke and Octavia are the only Arkers who a clue about how grounder culture works, and they Haven been proactive about educating people. That comes down to Kane not having a plan, and most of Arkadia must have known in the back of their minds that the peace was a lie, and that is why they voted for Pike. The rest of the grounder leaders were ready to replace Lexa and wipe out Arkadia. Perhaps if Kane and Indra were serious about building a lasting peace they would have tried to integrate their people, let them share knowledge and customs, and try to build some consensus among the grounders that Ark people are cool, and that they are all going to be better off working together. Instead, they have had this "uneasy peace" with seemingly minimal contact. quote:But that's also not how democracy works. We're not pinning it on anyone, Pike gave the order. This was a little bit different to your example. The people of Arkadia chose to reject their long term leaders and vote for Pike, who was already in detention for treason after making it known he was going to kill the Treekru army that was sent to protect them. Pike wasn't just some guy they voted for who turned out to be crazy. He was prevented from committing an atrocity, and the people of the Ark stood up and said screw that, we want Pike's crew to go and kill Indra's army. The Arkadian population might as well have pulled the trigger at that point. They are all guilty, and pinning this on Pike would be a cop out.
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Feb 20, 2016 00:55
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Even Bellamy didn't realize the plan was to execute all of them. I think that while can certainly hold the voters morally responsible, it makes sense to hold the actual perpetrators of the crime to be held legally responsible. Are you really suggesting that there should be no middle ground between punishing everyone who voted for Pike and no one?
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Feb 20, 2016 01:37
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Snak posted:Even Bellamy didn't realize the plan was to execute all of them. I think that while can certainly hold the voters morally responsible, it makes sense to hold the actual perpetrators of the crime to be held legally responsible. He carried out the will of the majority of his people. They should all suffer the same fate.
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Feb 20, 2016 02:36
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Snak posted:Even Bellamy didn't realize the plan was to execute all of them. I think that while can certainly hold the voters morally responsible, it makes sense to hold the actual perpetrators of the crime to be held legally responsible. Then he's an idiot. What did he think the ambush of their army was for? To scare them? And TyrantWD is completely right. The people voted for Pike knowing exactly what he was going to do. Kill em all and let Alie sort them out.
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Feb 20, 2016 02:50
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CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK posted:Then he's an idiot. What did he think the ambush of their army was for? To scare them? Of course Bellamy's an idiot. And so are the voters. They're all shortsighted idiots ruled by fear. I think you are completely over-reaching when you suggest that the average voter had all this information. For one thing, we didn't see the election. We have seen the narrative that Bellamy and Pike have been spinning which is that all grounders are the same and that the have been at war with them since they landed. A majority of the Arkers have barely interacted with grounders at all, much-less have a clear understanding of the situation. So sure you could just call them all guilty, but the goal here is survival and that doesn't help.
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Feb 20, 2016 03:03
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Pike is what happens if Trump wins.
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Feb 20, 2016 03:57
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Snak posted:Of course Bellamy's an idiot. And so are the voters. They're all shortsighted idiots ruled by fear. It's a small camp. Word will spread fast that Pike was sent to jail for treason because he wanted to attack the army. Of course people are going to talk about it, seeing as he's the last minute candidate. They knew what they were voting for and now it's time to pay.
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Feb 20, 2016 04:43
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It's kind of hilarious how quickly Arkadia turned into a less rational, more aggressive form of Mount Weather but with none of the technology or the ability to manipulate outside factions to actually defend itself. Plus they're all going to be turned into pod people soon, thanks cult leader Jaha.
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Feb 20, 2016 04:51
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Considering that he threw them in jail for drug possession, I wonder how Jasper and Monty will react to learning that Jaha has become the local weed man.
Spergatory fucked around with this message at 05:14 on Feb 20, 2016 |
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Feb 20, 2016 05:11
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HUGE SPACEKABLOOIE posted:Am I correct in that Clarke hasn't actually killed anyone yet this season? She has tried twice unsuccessfully.
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Feb 20, 2016 05:20
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hope and vaseline posted:It's kind of hilarious how quickly Arkadia turned into a less rational, more aggressive form of Mount Weather but with none of the technology or the ability to manipulate outside factions to actually defend itself. Plus they're all going to be turned into pod people soon, thanks cult leader Jaha. Some of this can be blamed on the Grounders. Had they allowed the Arkers to move back into Mt Wx and not destroyed it and killed a bunch of Arkers, then the Arkers wouldn't have reason to be dicks. The Grounders feared the Arkers would become just like the Mountain Men; they made it happen anyway. Not saying Pike is justified, but it's a spiraling tragedy that could have been stopped at a lot of points. One thing I liked about this episode nobody has touched on was Bellamy calling Clarke out for being loving Clarke and all the Clarke poo poo she's done since they landed. It was nice to see somebody actually tell her "no, you're not always right, you're not always perfect, you're not the best leader ever" and have her kinda own up to it. She was shell shocked there, I think because even in her self recriminations over the past few months she still thought she was basically totes right about everything. esperterra posted:And was it my own At first I thought it was straight up plugging yourself into VR Matrix world, but I think there's also an element of a real world "overlay" to it after seeing Raven appear to lose the pain in her leg--ie Augmented Reality. Basically the AI has a form where it can "skin" the sensory input of the real world and make you think you're not in pain. A sufficient illusion would allow, say, a wheelchair bound person to imagine themselves standing up and walking around, while interacting with real people. The computer would control their body and make their arms push the chair, but they wouldn't feel it. Everyone not under AI control would see them in the chair of course. Similarly, a person with a scarred face might look in the mirror and see themselves perfect. This is basically how the Talosians were able to give Pike the illusion he was out of his chair and walking around and banging Vina in the coda of the Star Trek episode "The Menagerie." There's a lot more you can do with this obviously, such as having dead people interact with the living, creating the illusion of items and buildings that aren't there, all overlaid on the Real World. In theory, an AI can "autopilot" your body so you're walking and even talking and doing poo poo while your mind is dreaming away in the City of Light. This sort of thing has been touched on by a number of modern cyberpunk/singularity authors. A great example is The Atopia Chronicles by Matthew Mather or Vernor Vinge's stuff. The biggest question the Jaha and ALIE are not answering is "so if everyone goes into the Matrix, what happens to Earth? LIke literally every human downloads and abandons the real world, we just hope ALIE doesn't break down in a hundred years? Once you take that pill, you never will know what is real again. She can give them all sorts of fantasies about them using avatars to explore and rebuild earth, or even launching spacecraft to explore over the next few centuries, but it might be all fake.
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Feb 20, 2016 05:29
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or is Jaha's cyber eucharist also nanomachines? Maybe Raven was just tripping.
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Pike has the right of it. Kill three hundred with ten, then gently caress up the next army as well with thousands of bullets. Then a truce, maybe. Without fear there is no respect on this new Earth.
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Feb 20, 2016 05:30
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Im guessing the grounders are going to lose their fear of guns real quick
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Feb 20, 2016 05:50
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A reminder that Mt Weather used missile strikes, death fog, drug crazed cannibals, and random mass kidnappings [That when uncovered turned out to be because they were literally blood sucking vampires living in a loving crypt]. Pike is wildly mistaken if he thinks the Grounders are going to be afraid of guns.
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Feb 20, 2016 05:58
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Snak posted:Even Bellamy didn't realize the plan was to execute all of them. I don't know how he couldn't realize that unless he was being willfully ignorant, Pike couldn't have made his plans any more clear. Astroman posted:Some of this can be blamed on the Grounders. Had they allowed the Arkers to move back into Mt Wx and not destroyed it and killed a bunch of Arkers, then the Arkers wouldn't have reason to be dicks. The Grounders feared the Arkers would become just like the Mountain Men; they made it happen anyway. Not saying Pike is justified, but it's a spiraling tragedy that could have been stopped at a lot of points. In the episode before they blew up Mount Weather, that's exactly what would have happened if you go by the way Pike was talking. jfood posted:Pike has the right of it. Kill three hundred with ten, then gently caress up the next army as well with thousands of bullets. Then a truce, maybe. Great idea, until you realize that bullets are not a renewable resource. raditts fucked around with this message at 06:43 on Feb 20, 2016 |
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Feb 20, 2016 06:36
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zoux posted:Pike is what happens if Trump wins. I support Pike. He is going to clean up Washington and Make America Great Again.
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Feb 20, 2016 07:05
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Boogaleeboo posted:A reminder that Mt Weather used missile strikes, death fog, drug crazed cannibals, and random mass kidnappings [That when uncovered turned out to be because they were literally blood sucking vampires living in a loving crypt]. Pike is wildly mistaken if he thinks the Grounders are going to be afraid of guns. They had less guns and people than Arkadia. The grounder counter was a 'shield wall' that got lit the gently caress up and collapsed after maybe ten feet. Pike is right, you send two messages. One, that you're not to be hosed with. Two, questioning lesson one is loving stupid. Then you talk, on your terms. Indra and Lexa talk quite openly how they're terrified of guns and don't have a counter. quote:Great idea, until you realize that bullets are not a renewable resource. They kinda are.
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Feb 20, 2016 07:06
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Indra says something about using guns though, maybe the Grounders have a cache somewhere but they are forbidden?
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Feb 20, 2016 07:08
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jfood posted:They had less guns and people than Arkadia. The grounder counter was a 'shield wall' that got lit the gently caress up and collapsed after maybe ten feet. Pike is right, you send two messages. One, that you're not to be hosed with. Two, questioning lesson one is loving stupid. Then you talk, on your terms. Arkadia were making GBS threads their pants in fear of the grounder army in season 2. Guns aren't magically going to make Arkadia a power. They would definitely lose if it came to it. Astroman posted:Some of this can be blamed on the Grounders. Had they allowed the Arkers to move back into Mt Wx and not destroyed it and killed a bunch of Arkers, then the Arkers wouldn't have reason to be dicks. The Grounders feared the Arkers would become just like the Mountain Men; they made it happen anyway. Not saying Pike is justified, but it's a spiraling tragedy that could have been stopped at a lot of points. Putting Pike in control of Mt Weather would have been fantastic! Definitely would have ended well for everyone involved.
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Feb 20, 2016 07:16
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Did TFR find this show this season?
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Feb 20, 2016 07:26
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zoux posted:Pike is what happens if Trump wins. Sans magnificent hair. But seriously, it's been a hundred years and the grounders are still filthy peasants who haven't invented running water again yet. Say what you want about all the murders, but I'm guessing Pike's regime will have shampoo available at least.
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Feb 20, 2016 08:06
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CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK posted:They would definitely lose if it came to it. Arkadian Grunt: "Reich Chancellor Pike, the enemy are at our thirty foot high gates and they have brought sticks! STICKS!!' Pike: "How could I have been so wrong... lay down your guns and drop all that homemade napalm into the pit toilet, we are done for!" The last time the grounders sent an army at the Arkadians they got massacred by children, dude. Pike has this on lockdown.
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Feb 20, 2016 08:07
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raditts posted:I don't know how he couldn't realize that unless he was being willfully ignorant, Pike couldn't have made his plans any more clear. There is a difference between decisive victory and executing all of the wounded survivors.
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Feb 20, 2016 09:21
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jfood posted:Arkadian Grunt: "Reich Chancellor Pike, the enemy are at our thirty foot high gates and they have brought sticks! STICKS!!' The "children" only won because they had deus ex rocket fuel air bomb, which ark station probably doesn't have. Even then, they got their poo poo pushed in considering they even had real walls and not thin sheets of corrugated metal held together by string. And who even knows how many guns and how much ammo Arkadia has(it's as much or little as the plot demands  ).But really it doesn't matter because Lexa is super pussy whipped  and won't let the grounders retaliate like they should.
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Feb 20, 2016 10:00
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It's probably been mentioned already but it's worth pointing out that this is, uh, not the first time Lexa has opted to avoid a high-casualty battle.
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Feb 20, 2016 10:05
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zoux posted:Pike is what happens if Trump wins. Kane is probably Sanders. He's been consistently right about stuff, but ineffectual. Is...is Abbie Hilary? She does seem to flip-flop a lot. Pike might be this guy. Clarke is Oppenheimer.
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Feb 20, 2016 11:51
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Regarding bullets: Jaha remarks that Raven has been given scrap sorting duty (to make bullets) because she can't do anything else in order to push her to take the Jaha-Juice. In the background of that scene, it looks like a lot of people are working on that too. The Arkers are definitely prepping for war.
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Feb 20, 2016 12:04
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Might as well melt down most of what's left of the Ark, gonna need a lot of bullets.
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Feb 20, 2016 12:08
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That towering wreckage looks really dangerous anyway.
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Feb 20, 2016 12:15
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Making bullets (or rounds more importantly) involves a lot more than just melting down scrap metal. And in a show where deciding to use their propellant for a bomb was a major plot point.
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Feb 20, 2016 13:01
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Hobo posted:Making bullets (or rounds more importantly) involves a lot more than just melting down scrap metal. It's probably 3D printers making stuff. Better not think too much, for instance where all these people who were born on the Ark learned to shoot so well. Was there a Firing Range Station ?
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Feb 20, 2016 13:59
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If they hand waved the ammo and guns thing from the start I wouldn't care, but that's not the case here, and should have a major impact on the viability of the arkers defending themselves. Hell, a throwaway line about moving a ton of ammo as a part of the supplies from Mt Wx would be enough, and more reasonable than suddenly making ammo out of nothing. How much did they use to kill 300 grounders? Did they stash all the ammo on farm station on the ark? Pike seems to be betting on not having to use the ammo in large amounts past the 300 and the village.
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Feb 20, 2016 14:26
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Snak posted:There'e no way they're going to let Pike live. Finn was barely enough when he killed 13? people and the Coalition army was going to wipe out Skaikru. Now they've killed 300. The only way out of this is for Skaikru to frame Pike as a traitor have him punished under grounder law. Bellamy might make it out of this alive if someone can win off Indra to pardon him for some political reason, but really I hope that Octavia has to kill him in battle. Bellamy is getting under my skin with his little bitch act. I'm kind of hoping that Pike gets outright merked by Clarke and then Bellamy gets Finn'd Also I was smirking a little at the posts yesterday saying that Clarke had Lexa pussywhipped, but after watching that episode god drat is it hilariously obvious.
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Feb 20, 2016 18:07
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It's a fortified position at the top of a hill with no cover leading up to it. The 'enemy', and I use that term loosely as they're more or less target practice, think attaching a stabby bit to the end of your stick is the height of technology. Rorke's Drift 2150, but with automatic weapons this time. Those fifteen square kilometers of land are gonna be well fertilized after the battle. I think it'd be fitting if Pike stepped down afterwards, in Cincinnatus style, knowing the work he had to accomplish was now done.
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Feb 20, 2016 18:28
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