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Cingulate posted:I bet STEM people are more progressive on basically every issue than fair comparison groups (e.g., matched for gender and age). To phrase the same point differently: thinking computers will solve all the world's problems is a lot better than thinking guns will. Gahahah. Alright. I bet you a hundred bucks.
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Feb 21, 2016 20:54
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It's not the people who have taken STEM courses. It's the people who are REALLY PROUD OF having taken STEM courses and who REALLY WANT YOU TO KNOW IT. Very much like the difference between people who are mere atheists or skeptics and the people who wear their capital A Atheism like a badge of pride.
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Feb 21, 2016 20:58
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Cingulate posted:I bet STEM people are more progressive on basically every issue than fair comparison groups (e.g., matched for gender and age). To phrase the same point differently: thinking computers will solve all the world's problems is a lot better than thinking guns will. what a lovely idea it's going right on the fridge
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Feb 21, 2016 20:58
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Cardboard Box A posted:It's not the people who have taken STEM courses. It's the people who are REALLY PROUD OF having taken STEM courses and who REALLY WANT YOU TO KNOW IT.
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Feb 21, 2016 21:13
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Cingulate posted:True, but that goes for everything. Even people who're fanatical about really good causes become annoying - and "let's focus on STEM" is not even a bad cause. ok honey
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Feb 21, 2016 21:14
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Cingulate posted:I bet STEM people are more progressive on basically every issue than fair comparison groups (e.g., matched for gender and age). Some time on Google Scholar turned up this: STEM students’ social agency and views on working for social change Abstract posted:Utilizing a national sample of over 6,100 undergraduates, drawn from the Cooperative Institutional Research Program's (CIRP) Freshman Survey and College Senior Survey, this study investigates differences between STEM and non-STEM students at the end of college on the values they place on helping to create a more equitable society. Findings show that, on average, STEM students view the importance of working for social change as less important to their career goals, yet differences between Underrepresented Students of Color and their non-underrepresented counterparts emerge. The multilevel analysis revealed that majoring in a STEM discipline has a significant negative relationship with social agency outcomes, and that there are important differences in social agency outcomes among students who aspire to work in different STEM-related careers. Given the intellectual debates over the purpose of STEM education, the findings have broad implications for STEM education scholars, policymakers, and practitioners interested in promoting STEM students’ social and civic outcomes at institutions of higher education. © 2015 Wiley Periodicals, Inc. J Res Sci Teach 52: 610–632, 2015. Full disclosure: I don't have access to the full article so I don't know if their methodology satisfies your criteria, but it's a starting point.
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Feb 21, 2016 21:29
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Cingulate posted:True, but that goes for everything. Even people who're fanatical about really good causes become annoying - and "let's focus on STEM" is not even a bad cause.
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Feb 21, 2016 21:33
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Cingulate posted:True, but that goes for everything. Even people who're fanatical about really good causes become annoying - and "let's focus on STEM" is not even a bad cause. Shhhhh shhhh shhhh shhhh...I know, honey. I know.
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Feb 21, 2016 21:37
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The best is when people say at the start of the paragraph that the old model of public education was just designed to make workers for jobs that don't really exist any more, and then at the end of the paragraph advocate for reforming the public education system to make workers for jobs that exist right now. Usually the real point is the charter program that channels money to private groups tho'
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Feb 21, 2016 21:43
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Cingulate posted:I bet STEM people are more progressive on basically every issue than fair comparison groups (e.g., matched for gender and age). To phrase the same point differently: thinking computers will solve all the world's problems is a lot better than thinking guns will. Compared to people with no degree, or compared to people with non-STEM degrees? On the former, sure, college in general tends to open your worldview, on the latter, no way. quote:When I think of nerd media, I think of BoingBoing and Slashdot, which is about as far to the left as Slate, but not, unlike Slate, really bad. (The worst discipline is in my rather limited experience sports science, followed by law.) I actually stopped going to slashdot because of how right I perceived it as heading. This was in like 2008 though at the heart of  so it may be different now.
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Feb 21, 2016 21:47
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Cardboard Box A posted:It's not the people who have taken STEM courses. It's the people who are REALLY PROUD OF having taken STEM courses and who REALLY WANT YOU TO KNOW IT. Yeah this too. There's "I am an engineer but I also appreciate fine art and it's all good man" and there's "I am an engineer and art is fundamentally worthless to society and i deserve to make astronomically more money than artists because of that"
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Feb 21, 2016 21:49
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Parallel Paraplegic posted:Compared to people with no degree, or compared to people with non-STEM degrees? On the former, sure, college in general tends to open your worldview, on the latter, no way. And yes, certainly not to non-STEM college graduates, but compared to the average guy (at least if matching by gender). E.g.  potatocubed posted:Some time on Google Scholar turned up this: darthbob88 posted:Yeah, but then you're right back to PP's point about STEMlords being shitheads. Cingulate has a new favorite as of 21:57 on Feb 21, 2016 |
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Feb 21, 2016 21:53
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Cingulate runnin' interference by saying dumb bullshit to stop criticism of his favorite blogger
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Feb 21, 2016 21:59
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The Vosgian Beast posted:Cingulate runnin' interference by saying dumb bullshit to stop criticism of his favorite blogger 
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Feb 21, 2016 22:02
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The majority of people I associate with orthodox STEMlordism are not bench or research scientists but rather software developers. The legit scientists I know are crunchy as gently caress and play hacky sack on weekends and enjoy folk dance.
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Feb 21, 2016 23:50
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STEMlords are like fundamentalist Christians and have to really try to feel oppressed.
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Feb 22, 2016 00:03
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Honestly, given how much poo poo the average STEMlord gives to "pure" sciences, I think it'd be more accurate to just call them TElords at this point. Ditto for all the business and political types that call for more STEM education but then backhand anyone studying something outside of computer science and engineering (which is to say, most of them).
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Feb 22, 2016 00:08
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The Vosgian Beast posted:STEMlords are like fundamentalist Christians and have to really try to feel oppressed. The way they go about it would seem that they breathe that "world is against White men and SJWs want to purge us" nonsense, day and night.
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Feb 22, 2016 02:01
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Merdifex posted:The way they go about it would seem that they breathe that "world is against White men and SJWs want to purge us" nonsense, day and night. Reinterpreting any suggestion that they should have anything less than total hegemony as a call for their annihilation is a common tactic to feel oppressed.
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Feb 22, 2016 02:53
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Cingulate posted:I have the paper and it's not uninteresting, I don't see how it answers the question at all though Does the paper say anything on the non-white guy STEM majors? The abstract seems to suggest that the problem goes beyond STEM's demographics but, you know, no real details in the abstract.
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Feb 22, 2016 03:14
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Glenn Zimmerman posted:Does the paper say anything on the non-white guy STEM majors? The abstract seems to suggest that the problem goes beyond STEM's demographics but, you know, no real details in the abstract. Okay, either way. The guy reports main effects of STEM (a few, but generally, the association between STEMy stuff and how one rates the importance of working for social change is negative) and being not white (positive). He did not calculate an interaction (e.g., what black engineers are like) from what I can tell. The dependent variable is hard to interpret, but the effects do not seem to be particularly strong. E: oh, do you mean: the issue seems to go beyond STEM being heavy on white males (a comparatively right-leaning group)? Well yes, the effect is all-else-equal*, so controlled for gender and not being white. * where "all": the particular stuff the author bothered to measure and include.
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Feb 22, 2016 04:25
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I'm deeply amused that Sandifer just made a minor criticism of Scott and racism and got flooded with a bunch of neoreactionary asks. Like, drat. They need to calm down there. Although his response is perfect http://philsandifer.tumblr.com/post/139755984656/the-answer-to-the-stupidest-question-i-have-everCingulate posted:Well it depends on what you're comparing it to. Me, I read the Jacobin and consider them too mild on the capitalist oppressors, but /. is certainly left of the center.
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Feb 22, 2016 06:07
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Pussy Cartel posted:Honestly, given how much poo poo the average STEMlord gives to "pure" sciences, I think it'd be more accurate to just call them TElords at this point. Ditto for all the business and political types that call for more STEM education but then backhand anyone studying something outside of computer science and engineering (which is to say, most of them). yep. Here's a very lightweight study about political affiliation by major that finds comp sci/eng to be much more economically conservative than pure sciences. Also, fun tangentially-related fact: 70% of LessWrong users are in STEM jobs/fields, more than half of which are computing/IT.
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Feb 22, 2016 07:40
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Saeku posted:yep. Here's a very lightweight study about political affiliation by major that finds comp sci/eng to be much more economically conservative than pure sciences. Yeah well didn't another survey find that literally 100% of them self-reported above like 110 IQ
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Feb 22, 2016 07:42
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If the subject is "STEMlord culture", I'd argue that LW's self-reported career breakdown is more relevant than its actual career breakdown.
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Feb 22, 2016 07:54
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Parallel Paraplegic posted:I actually stopped going to slashdot because of how right I perceived it as heading. This was in like 2008 though at the heart of No, it's pretty much a cesspool of  right wing nutjobs today. The curdled and fermented rather than clearing up. The user-run "moderation" system is partly to blame IMO, but so are the site's administrators / article summarizers.RE: STEMlords, speaking as someone with a bachelor's engineering degree from a notoriously liberal as gently caress school, being somewhere on the lolbertarian spectrum was rife among us in the engineering part of STEM, and me and my buddies sneered at namby pamby liberal arts people who were all weedlord fakers that didn't deserve to be called real college students. Never quite thought of myself as out and out libertarian but I thought they had a point. I remember actually being intrigued by their dumbass HOLY poo poo GUYZ THERE ARE TWO AXES TO POLITICS NOT JUST ONE SEE WHERE YOU LIE ON OUR KEWL 2-D CHART bullshit. (I got better! And to head off possible derails, it's dumb not because politics aren't complicated, but because two axes aren't nearly enough and the questions they ask to get you to consider where you stand are very push-poll-esque.) Anyways where I'm going with all this rambling is that engineering STEMlords are definitely not all that liberal, in my anecdotal experience. Lumping the sciences and engineering disciplines together might work in some ways, but not politically.
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Feb 22, 2016 08:47
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Pussy Cartel posted:Honestly, given how much poo poo the average STEMlord gives to "pure" sciences, I think it'd be more accurate to just call them TElords at this point. Ditto for all the business and political types that call for more STEM education but then backhand anyone studying something outside of computer science and engineering (which is to say, most of them).
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Feb 22, 2016 10:56
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BobHoward posted:Anyways where I'm going with all this rambling is that engineering STEMlords are definitely not all that liberal, in my anecdotal experience. Lumping the sciences and engineering disciplines together might work in some ways, but not politically. Also remember that culture has a huge amount to do with it. At my university in New Zealand, for example, you could count the number of right-wing true believers in the computer science / software engineering faculty on two fingers. One was widely regarded as an ignorant loving moron and the other one was such a total workaholic that I got the sense that strict adherence to libertarian ideology was the only thing that kept her going.
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Feb 22, 2016 11:19
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Luigi's Discount Porn Bin posted:It's likely also relevant that this table isn't about left-right political orientation, but party identification. The GOP is the party of teaching creationism in schools, climate change denial, and cutting funding for basic research. That's going to be a hard sell to a biochemistry PhD no matter what they think about race mixing.
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Feb 22, 2016 11:53
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Reflections85 posted:I'm deeply amused that Sandifer just made a minor criticism of Scott and racism and got flooded with a bunch of neoreactionary asks. Like, drat. They need to calm down there. Although his response is perfect http://philsandifer.tumblr.com/post/139755984656/the-answer-to-the-stupidest-question-i-have-ever I like this one: http://crookedtimber.org But I wasn't really trying to say what I do read, but where my political sympathies lie. For the last year or so, I've been mostly reading stuff by people I disagree with. It's much more interesting.
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Feb 22, 2016 11:59
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Cingulate posted:What table?
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Feb 22, 2016 12:20
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Cingulate posted:I don't understand what you're talking about. I meant that last one, thanks.
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Feb 22, 2016 12:59
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Somfin posted:Also remember that culture has a huge amount to do with it. At my university in New Zealand, for example, you could count the number of right-wing true believers in the computer science / software engineering faculty on two fingers. One was widely regarded as an ignorant loving moron and the other one was such a total workaholic that I got the sense that strict adherence to libertarian ideology was the only thing that kept her going. We get libertarians in New Zealand now?
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Feb 22, 2016 13:23
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Still left of the mainstream though right?
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Feb 22, 2016 13:27
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Cingulate posted:Still left of the mainstream though right? No. There's way too many factors at play for you to make a judgement on their left/right leaning from Dem/Rep/Ind affiliation, and you of all people should know that.
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Feb 22, 2016 14:11
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Pussy Cartel posted:Honestly, given how much poo poo the average STEMlord gives to "pure" sciences, I think it'd be more accurate to just call them TElords at this point. Ditto for all the business and political types that call for more STEM education but then backhand anyone studying something outside of computer science and engineering (which is to say, most of them). Well, TE and SM have very different income:schooling ratios, so I'd very strongly expect the former to be to the right of the latter on fundamentals alone.
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Feb 22, 2016 15:30
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Cingulate posted:Still left of the mainstream though right? Tesseraction posted:No. There's way too many factors at play for you to make a judgement on their left/right leaning from Dem/Rep/Ind affiliation, and you of all people should know that. Yeah, as a grad student in the physical sciences, even a lot of the "socially traditional" people here tend to vote Dem, if only because the GOP has made it abundantly clear that they hate us and want to tell us what we're allowed to study. Unrelated question that ties back into the actual subject of this thread: the stupidest question that tumblr guy ever asked was "Which thede and which phyle do you consider yourself a part of? Also, why do you include so many progressive fnords in your writings?" What the hell are thedes and phyles? I'm just assuming "fnords" means "buzzwords, and also I read a counterculture book this one time."
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Feb 22, 2016 15:54
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Thedes and phyles are referring to tribes/clans. It's race bollocks. Fnord is indeed a reference to buzzwords with propaganda intent.
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Feb 22, 2016 15:58
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Somfin posted:Also remember that culture has a huge amount to do with it. At my university in New Zealand, for example, you could count the number of right-wing true believers in the computer science / software engineering faculty on two fingers. One was widely regarded as an ignorant loving moron and the other one was such a total workaholic that I got the sense that strict adherence to libertarian ideology was the only thing that kept her going. Yeah, I was gonna say, Cing's German, right? Maybe STEMlords aren't as much a thing across the pond, as opposed to in the US, where there's a huuuuuuge contingent of "Beep boop, social and economic factors are not a thing, every factor of your life is solely based on Personal Ability."* I mean, really, Cingulate, you know that when folks talk about STEM people, they know #NotAllSTEM, right? *Probably because they're often really shy, sheltered dudes who haven't had to spend any time examining the American Dream mythologies we get fed here from the moment we leave the womb. (I mean poo poo, how much does it suck to go from "I am successful because I worked hard and am smart yay me!" to "I am successful because I happened to win the parents lottery, and it's quite possible none of my success was actually due to me, personally." That's difficult, scary stuff. Especially when you pile it on top of the usual lovely life stuff most people have. Nobody wants to spend time thinking about that junk when they get home from a frustrating day of work.)
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Feb 22, 2016 16:13
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Jack Gladney posted:That Scott guy is like a bright high-schooler who never grew up. Does he really not understand that people have written books about democracy before and that he could read some of them if he were curious? Is Randroids' obsessive hate-on for Kant derived from the fact that he suggested that you can't solve every problem just by thinking about it really hard with the help of ~*axioms*~ and might actually have to consult real experience instead of the view from inside your own rear end? Parallel Paraplegic posted:I actually stopped going to slashdot because of how right I perceived it as heading. This was in like 2008 though at the heart of Is there a history lesson about this thing? I've never posted on Slashdot but I suspect it's an amazing train wreck.
Woolie Wool has a new favorite as of 16:21 on Feb 22, 2016 |
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