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I've managed to slog my way through the first two books of the Dresden files (the first one is pretty bad but the second is passable) and I have a couple of questions: I know they apparently get better from no. 3 onward, but does the quality of writing in the books improve substantially? I found some points in the first two to be tedious, especially where the author dwells on moments for far too long in what I'm guessing is an attempt to build suspense or sympathy but it always seems to fall flat. Also, do the characters develop substantially? I feel like the weakest points in the first two novels were the characterisations. Dresden feels kind of flat and uninteresting and Murphy is kind of obnoxious. I felt like Marcone was the most complex and interesting character, which I doubt is intended. I really want to like the series and I'll definitely read the third book, but if the characters aren't better written and more interesting after that I'll probably wind up giving the rest of the books a miss.
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Feb 22, 2016 02:34
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Mr Scumbag posted:I've managed to slog my way through the first two books of the Dresden files (the first one is pretty bad but the second is passable) and I have a couple of questions: Yes to your first question, sort of to your second. Lemme preface the next sentence by saying I've been reading these books for a very long time now and I enjoy them a lot. Lots of people are probably gonna say that all the characters develop significantly, except Murphy, but most of their growth is really shallow and surface level stuff that generally comes out more as a change in plot than a change in character, if that makes sense. Murphy is always just about as annoying as always, Dresden gains untold amounts of power and gets into a whole world of life changing scenarios and I think the most he changes is between books 2 and 4~. There's one or two exceptions to this but frankly, if you need character growth and development of any real meaningful sort you're not gonna get it here. Some of the tangential window dressing makes some of the characters more interesting to read about (Its way better reading about dresden doing his detective shtick when he has some power and his enemies are more well thought out and interesting than in the first 2 books) Butcher gets better at writing certainly, the books mainly become more fun as they go on. He learns how to do action very very well, the setups and stories within each book grow more ambitious, interesting or just cooler with each passing release.
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Feb 22, 2016 02:44
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Nemesis Of Moles posted:Yes to your first question, sort of to your second. Murphy doesn't get developed? She becomes /considerably/ less annoying as time goes on. She is becoming somewhat.. extraneous but she's nowhere near as bad as in the first two books.
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Feb 22, 2016 03:48
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Nothing is nearly as bad as it is in the first two books, that's sort of a given to me
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Feb 22, 2016 03:51
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They don't just get better from 3, if I'm remembering right Butcher himself recommends new readers start with book 3. The first two books are basically the first thing he ever wrote and it shows. That being said the series certainly has it's flaws, and if you're looking for a mature character drama you've come to the wrong place. If, however, you are interested in books containing some very memorable action scenes as well as climactic finales which sorta remind me of a mix between an Old West showdown and pro wrestling if the participants could blow up buildings by waving their arms, you should probably keep reading. Edit: there are some persistent issues, but a lot of the most painful stuff is polished away early on AllTerrineVehicle fucked around with this message at 07:22 on Feb 23, 2016 |
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Feb 22, 2016 15:52
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Slanderer posted:So, there was a new Dresden Files short story in an anthology called Unbound last year named "Jury Duty". I had assumed it would have taken place earlier in the book chronology, but nope it's taking place after Skin Game because the 1st page starts with Will Borden helping Harry move his stuff off the island. Cool, but simplistic. Harry in the White Court cave was more involved than this, and he was MUCH lower level then. Still, who am I kidding. It was good methadone, and I'll take whatever I can get that this point. 
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Feb 22, 2016 17:01
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AllTerrineVehicle posted:a mix between of an Old West showdown and pro wrestling if the participants could blow up buildings by waving their arms This is pretty much the perfect description of how people fight in Dresden Files
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Feb 22, 2016 20:17
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PreacherTom posted:Cool, but simplistic. Harry in the White Court cave was more involved than this, and he was MUCH lower level then. Worst Jurist Ever. Best judge.
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Feb 23, 2016 01:52
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Have there been any updates on Peace Talks? I thought it was mentioned it was due to the editor by Jan 1st.
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Feb 23, 2016 23:56
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Oroborus posted:Have there been any updates on Peace Talks? I thought it was mentioned it was due to the editor by Jan 1st. This is taken from his website "•As of January 2016: Jim is currently writing Peace Talks (#16), so we’re still quite a ways from having a release date."
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Feb 24, 2016 00:11
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ARCs of Stiletto are apparently being distributed, so it looks like we'll actually get it this year.
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Feb 25, 2016 04:11
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So I just finished reading Carter & Lovecraft by Jonathan Howard. It was pretty good. If you're going to do a full on Lovecraft world (in the sequels) this wasn't a bad way to get there. It's more Laundry Files than Dresden Files, but either way its got some interesting stuff going on.
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Feb 29, 2016 22:23
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jng2058 posted:So I just finished reading Carter & Lovecraft by Jonathan Howard. It was pretty good. If you're going to do a full on Lovecraft world (in the sequels) this wasn't a bad way to get there. It's more Laundry Files than Dresden Files, but either way its got some interesting stuff going on. I didn't know that book had come out. I love his Johannes Cabal books, and this gives me something new by him with a sweet-rear end concept. Adding it to the pile now.
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Mar 1, 2016 16:17
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So if you were going to start a review blog aimed at male UF readers/readers who wanted UF without romance in it, what would you call it?
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Mar 1, 2016 16:29
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Megazver posted:So if you were going to start a review blog aimed at male UF readers/readers who wanted UF without romance in it, what would you call it? The Snipe Hunt
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Mar 1, 2016 16:31
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Megazver posted:So if you were going to start a review blog aimed at male UF readers/readers who wanted UF without romance in it, what would you call it? Paranormal Investigations.
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Mar 1, 2016 16:40
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Megazver posted:So if you were going to start a review blog aimed at male UF readers/readers who wanted UF without romance in it, what would you call it?
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Mar 1, 2016 18:39
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anilEhilated posted:No Vampires Allowed I was thinking something like Kill Vampires Not Kiss Them but it's a little clunky.
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Mar 1, 2016 18:43
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Stop loving That Corpse
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Mar 1, 2016 18:45
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Megazver posted:So if you were going to start a review blog aimed at male UF readers/readers who wanted UF without romance in it, what would you call it?
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Mar 1, 2016 19:58
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Mars4523 posted:There can't be more than a dozen UF series out there that don't have any romance. A dozen seems pretty high.
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Mar 1, 2016 20:02
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Eh, I've got more than enough potentially promising ones that I haven't read yet. Not all of them are gonna cut the grade and not all of them are going to be good, but still. Also, I am okay with relationship sub-plots as long as they're not explicitly romance (as in the genre) and aimed solely at women. A few most recent ones: Envy of Angels: A Sin du Jour Affair by Matt Wallace Drake (The Burned Man) by Peter McLean Brotherhood of the Wheel by R. S. Belcher The Ballad of Black Tom by Victor LaValle The Unnoticeables: A Novel by Robert Brockway The Girl With Ghost Eyes by M.H. Boroson The War Against the Assholes by Sam Munson Megazver fucked around with this message at 20:20 on Mar 1, 2016 |
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Mar 1, 2016 20:12
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Envy of Angles is a really good popcorn book. It's got a cute cast of characters. Not sure how the second book is yet though.
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Mar 1, 2016 20:54
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It would be nice if R.S. Belcher continued his weird west Golgotha series instead of branching out even more. I read McLean's Drake. The setting and characters are almost ludicrously cliched. I'd call it a poor man's Sandman Slim if I thought better of Richard Kadrey's writing. Still, allowances can be made for being a first book, and it ended in a way that I'm interested in seeing what happens next. As far as recently released urban fantasy goes, Schaefer's The White Gold Job is a lot better. What would "aimed solely at women" mean anyways? Paranormal romance?
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Mar 1, 2016 20:54
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He means Twilight and Anita Blake and Sookie Stackhouse and so forth, where the vampire fuckin' is the main point of the series and the setting and characters are just there to facilitate vampire fuckin'
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Mar 1, 2016 21:11
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Gilok posted:He means Twilight and Anita Blake and Sookie Stackhouse and so forth, where the vampire fuckin' is the main point of the series and the setting and characters are just there to facilitate vampire fuckin' If superhero fantasy counts as urban fantasy, the Girl in the Box and Out of the Box series by Robert J. Crane are some pretty good popcorn fiction. They follow Sienna Nealon, a teenaged metahuman who is drafted by a shadowy extra-governmental agency to fight against the threat of criminal metas and worse foes. While she's pretty powerful, she's also incredibly poorly socialized due to having been locked up in a blacked out house with only her mother for company (and frequently tortured with solitary confinement) for the 17 years of her life.
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Mar 1, 2016 21:32
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Well, not quite. Let me writer-sperg out about romance for a sec: There are two ways to handle intimate relationships in a story. Let's call them 'romance' and 'love story'. Romance is genre where you vicariously experience falling in love with someone through the POV character and it's similar to erotica in two ways: a) it works a different psychological level than the rest of the story to the point where everything what one would call 'writing' can be absolute dogshit, but as long as you're getting turned on, it just doesn't matter and b) either it's pushing whatever button it's designed to push in you or it does absolutely nothing for you. The love story is a more dramatic approach where you've got a pair of people falling in love and you're meant to empathize with them and cheer them on as an observer and they can be a regular hetero couple, or a gay couple of a gender you're not into, or a pair of cutie-pie robots that only communicate in beep boops and gestures and you're still into it, because what it's about is not "ungh I want Christian Grey to gently caress me in the rear end with a Vertu smartphone" but "awww, they're adorable, I want them to make it". I am somewhat sentimental and I actually enjoy these. Stories can work on both levels, of course. I rather enjoyed Pride and Prejudice as the latter but I am told there might be one or two female readers around who are into Mister Darcy, I dunno, just something I've been told. Unfortunately, most romance authors don't even seem to be aware of the distinction, much less bother to try and do both. Anyway, paranormal romance is regular romance, but with vampires. You take out the romance, there's literally nothing left to read. A lot of UF, on the other hand, does have non-romancey bits. They even constitute, like, 50% to 80% of the book. But, alas, the other 50% to 20% are regular romance-romance and, y'know, it's just not written for me. I could read it for the bits that are left, sure... or I could just skip them and read something that I'll enjoy in its entirety.
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Mar 1, 2016 21:54
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Most urban fantasy that would appeal to that demographic is likely to draw heavily from the noir tradition, and as some level of romance (even if it's toxic) is inherent in noir, there probably isn't going to be a large enough body of work for you to maintain a blog. On the other hand, there's a sub-sub-sub-sub genre for everyone in the magical world of self-publishing, if you're willing to take that dive.
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Mar 2, 2016 00:25
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Megazver posted:Stories can work on both levels, of course. I rather enjoyed Pride and Prejudice as the latter but I am told there might be one or two female readers around who are into Mister Darcy, I dunno, just something I've been told. Unfortunately, most romance authors don't even seem to be aware of the distinction, much less bother to try and do both. To expand on this a bit, I've often heard it described by saying that with Romance the relationship is the story. Not that you can't have other plot threads interacting with that main line, but all of it should help to define and grow the connection between the couple (or menage if that's your thing) because that's the flavor of wish fulfillment that group of readers is specifically looking for. A lot of Romance authors are quite aware of the distinction you make, but you're right in that they rarely try to do both. Readers of the genre are notoriously voracious, known for sometimes consuming two or three novel length books a week. As a result, many authors have found that they can get a lot more value out of writing half a dozen merely okay'ish books in the same about of time it would take to pen and polish one truly high-quality piece of work. Skippy McPants fucked around with this message at 12:20 on Mar 2, 2016 |
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Mar 2, 2016 12:11
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Skippy McPants posted:To expand on this a bit, I've often heard it described by saying that with Romance the relationship is the story. Not that you can't have other plot threads interacting with that main line, but all of it should help to define and grow the connection between the couple (or menage if that's your thing) because that's the flavor of wish fulfillment that group of readers is specifically looking for. A lot of Romance authors are quite aware of the distinction you make, but you're right in that they rarely try to do both. Readers of the genre are notoriously voracious, known for sometimes consuming two or three novel length books a week. As a result, many authors have found that they can get a lot more value out of writing half a dozen merely okay'ish books in the same about of time it would take to pen and polish one truly high-quality piece of work. You're right, but I was back to thinking about romance as it gets put into UF at that point. I should have phrased it differently, I know. Sticking to sexy female wish-fulfilment when you're pushing out a romance novel every month makes sense. Sticking to sexy female wish-fulfilment when you're releasing one or two UF novel a year that you probably actually want to also sell to men is clearly feasible, career-wise, but maybe don't complain that men aren't buying it then. I've been reading and listening to podcasts and interviews of UF writers talking about the genre and there is a lot of "why oh why do all those male readers of Dresden Files not wish to move on to UF by female writers, I have no idea, I don't even have any speculations as to why this could be a thing (they're sexist)". Woman, you haven't even tried to make it readable for them, that's why.
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Mar 2, 2016 12:44
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Well, on the one hand, those pod-casters aren't exactly wrong and a lot of the pandering that the predominantly male audience of UF expects is horribly sexist. But on the other hand, plenty of the pandering that the predominantly female audience of Romance expects is also horribly sexist. We're talking about the pulpiest of pulp here and asking people to step outside their comfort zone while reading indulgent fiction is probably asking a bit much. Either way, in this instance I don't think it's a case of women being unwilling or unable to make their work appealing to the target audience. Rather, I think it's just that nearly all UF authors, irrespective of gender, are just... bad writers. A lot of people don't move on from Dresden because there are very few people working within the genre who are worth giving the time of day to. Butcher himself is no master, but he's at least honed his craft to the point that his output is consistently readable. People don't avoid Laurell K Hamilton books because they're full of vampires fuckin' or because the plots don't appeal to a male audience, they avoid them because they're badbadbad books.
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Mar 2, 2016 13:05
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Skippy McPants posted:Well, on the one hand, those pod-casters aren't exactly wrong and a lot of the pandering that the predominantly male audience of UF expects is horribly sexist. But on the other hand, plenty of the pandering that the predominantly female audience of Romance expects is also horribly sexist. We're talking about the pulpiest of pulp here and asking people to step outside their comfort zone while reading indulgent fiction is probably asking a bit much. Predominately male audience of UF? Lol.
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Mar 2, 2016 13:11
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Megazver posted:Predominately male audience of UF? Lol. Sorry, did I miss something? Most Urban Fantasy readers are dudes, as I understand the term and what it entails. I'm talking about stuff like Dresden Files, Rivers of London, Grim Noir, The Rook, etc. Skippy McPants fucked around with this message at 13:38 on Mar 2, 2016 |
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Mar 2, 2016 13:24
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Skippy McPants posted:Well, on the one hand, those pod-casters aren't exactly wrong and a lot of the pandering that the predominantly male audience of UF expects is horribly sexist. But on the other hand, plenty of the pandering that the predominantly female audience of Romance expects is also horribly sexist. We're talking about the pulpiest of pulp here and asking people to step outside their comfort zone while reading indulgent fiction is probably asking a bit much. I wouldn't really call it sexist - like people have said, I don't mind romance, where two people have a relationship, but I mind Romance, where the male lead is an incredibly hot (and usually dickish and overly controlling) vampire/werewolf/gargoyle/demon hunter/navy seal/all of the above and the protagonists immediately fall mutually in lust on sight. It's true that most male-written UF doesn't really even have lower r romance as wives and girlfriends are usually there to be fridged (or were already fridged as part of his tragic backstory) to poo poo on the main character as much as possible. A lot of the better female UF writers that don't fall into the paranormal romance trap do tend to have better written relationships - Seanan Mcguire, while not necessarily my favorite author, does low-key relationships and romance pretty well that develops slowly over the course of series instead of insta-love/lust. I enjoy her books pretty well. I've seen a lot of recommendations thrown around here for some of the various werewolfy books by female authors but i've been too iffy to start them - I'm really not a fan of the creepy relationship dynamics in paranormal romance-leaning werewolf books - the whole slightly (or sometimes not-so-slightly) rapey overly controlling douchebag male lead that's justified because he's an 'alpha' werewolf is just too weird for me even if the book might be good otherwise.
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Mar 2, 2016 13:48
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I'm mean sexist in particular reference to a lot of a pandering and fan service you see in both genres. I.E. scantily clad lady-folk who get described in cringe-worthy detail in UF or, as you point out, the creepily possessive, almost rapey 'alphas' of PR. Beyond that, the point I'm getting at is that both sub-genres are wish fulfilment at their core, with PR being focused on fantasy relationships and UF on power or hero fantasies. The terrible tropes in Romance have plenty of equivalents in UF, but they exist largely as a function of bad or lazy writing, rather than anything inherent to the focus of the story.
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Mar 2, 2016 14:17
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Skippy McPants posted:I'm mean sexist in particular reference to a lot of a pandering and fan service you see in both genres. I.E. scantily clad lady-folk who get described in cringe-worthy detail in UF or, as you point out, the creepily possessive, almost rapey 'alphas' of PR. Beyond that, the point I'm getting at is that both sub-genres are wish fulfilment at their core, with PR being focused on fantasy relationships and UF on power or hero fantasies. The terrible tropes in Romance have plenty of equivalents in UF, but they exist largely as a function of bad or lazy writing, rather than anything inherent to the focus of the story. I have to agree here, most UF, even without any vampire-loving is just wish-fulfillment of a different sort, but is ultimately just as shallow. Look at Dresden, with every new book he just gets more and more powerful as a part of that fantasy, forcing the author to constantly up the ante on the villains to keep up. Its basically a comic book at this point, and even has the same old inability to permanently let go of any characters by the author. And I say this as someone who enjoyed the Dresden books quite a bit, but I'm under no illusions about their level of quality. This is why I appreciate series like the Rivers of London so much more: The heroes are usually just pawns in the hands of their opponents, and only barely manage to scrape by and survive thanks to their wits rather than brute force and/or magic. Mr.48 fucked around with this message at 14:59 on Mar 2, 2016 |
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Mar 2, 2016 14:56
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Skippy McPants posted:Sorry, did I miss something? Most Urban Fantasy readers are dudes, as I understand the term and what it entails. I'm talking about stuff like Dresden Files, Rivers of London, Grim Noir, The Rook, etc. So question, where is the line to you between Urban Fantasy and Paranormal Romance? Where would something like Buffy fall? There is a serious plot there that's not romance but the romance is important. What about Seanan McGuire's stuff? She was mentioned above has having low key romance but usually there is mystery to be solved. Also do you have stats? Cause most of the signing I've seem pretty even. And a lot editors/publishers/authors I've talked to say the fanbase usually relates to the gender divid of the cast. So like the books you are declaring 100% urban fantasy might be mostly dudes it's probably more like 60/40 rather than a HUGE tip one way or the other. Also, it's very frustrating being a lady that likes urban fantasy but not romance. Seems like I got to flip a coin and pick between some ladies in probably rapey romance or ladies in skippy outfits that are there to get fridge. KellHound fucked around with this message at 09:04 on Mar 3, 2016 |
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Mar 3, 2016 09:01
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KellHound posted:So question, where is the line to you between Urban Fantasy and Paranormal Romance? Where would something like Buffy fall? There is a serious plot there that's not romance but the romance is important. What about Seanan McGuire's stuff? She was mentioned above has having low key romance but usually there is mystery to be solved. Also do you have stats? Cause most of the signing I've seem pretty even. And a lot editors/publishers/authors I've talked to say the fanbase usually relates to the gender divid of the cast. So like the books you are declaring 100% urban fantasy might be mostly dudes it's probably more like 60/40 rather than a HUGE tip one way or the other. quote:Atlanta would be a nice place to live, if it weren’t for magic… quote:From Ilona Andrews—#1 New York Times bestselling author of Magic Shifts and the Kate Daniels novels—comes a stark, seductive tale of a world torn asunder by supernatural gifts and irresistible passions... There might be a competency dimension as well. I've seen a few works that toe the line between UF and paranormal romance that have heroines that are ridiculously useless in a fight, which they also find themselves in all the time. Naturally she will need to be saved by her hunky superagent*/vampire/shapeshifter partner, because a heroine who can take care of herself apparently isn't that relatable to certain audiences. Bonus point if she's total rapebait (who needs to be saved by hunky etc etc). * Then again, useless in a physical confrontation woman and uberbadass man is pretty much the standard for any given male written wish fulfillment technothriller/mystery novel. That said there are some male UF writers who nicely thread the needle in creating powerful female characters with a decent amount of agency (who aren't just appendages of the male lead) and who aren't just sex objects or rape/fridge bait. Take Craig Schaefer's Caitlin, whose character doesn't revolve around sex and serves as the group's muscle or Harmony Black, who gets to lead her own series (which is apparently doing pretty well on Amazon). I'm also partial to Elliot James' Sig Norresdottir. Mars4523 fucked around with this message at 10:20 on Mar 3, 2016 |
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Mar 3, 2016 10:14
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KellHound posted:So question, where is the line to you between Urban Fantasy and Paranormal Romance? Where would something like Buffy fall? There is a serious plot there that's not romance but the romance is important. What about Seanan McGuire's stuff? She was mentioned above has having low key romance but usually there is mystery to be solved. Also do you have stats? Cause most of the signing I've seem pretty even. And a lot editors/publishers/authors I've talked to say the fanbase usually relates to the gender divid of the cast. So like the books you are declaring 100% urban fantasy might be mostly dudes it's probably more like 60/40 rather than a HUGE tip one way or the other. If anything I'd say it's 60-40 the other way. Going to goodreads or amazon and all the top books advertised in urban fantasy are female written for presumably female readers. Dresden is an outlier for the genre. I think it's easy to get into a pedantic rabbit hole contrasting urban fantasy and paranormal romance. The borders between the two overlap hugely for marketing purposes especially now when physical retail space isn't as important. I think the temptation for a lot of male readers is that anything that has a lady protagonist hooking up with a creature is paranormal romance which is unfair. This is a pretty good read about some of the differences between the two.
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Mar 3, 2016 10:22
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Mars4523 posted:Take Craig Schaefer's Caitlin, whose character doesn't revolve around sex and serves as the group's muscle
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Mar 3, 2016 10:31
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