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Spiros posted:e: my advice is to remind them that they get stacks for kills. the problem with devo is that kills/assists only grant 1 stack, the same as just killing a camp in the jungle. rift scuttler gives 2, and Dragon / Herald / Baron grant 5. Riot should make kills/assists grant more stacks, because the train of thought for most devo junglers is going to be why bother possibly blowing sums for a possible measly one stack when they could just clear two jungle camps in the same time and get double that.
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Feb 24, 2016 13:11
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seizure later posted:the problem with devo is that kills/assists only grant 1 stack, the same as just killing a camp in the jungle. rift scuttler gives 2, and Dragon / Herald / Baron grant 5. Riot should make kills/assists grant more stacks, because the train of thought for most devo junglers is going to be why bother possibly blowing sums for a possible measly one stack when they could just clear two jungle camps in the same time and get double that. If you cant get scuttle AND kill a lane you gotta git gud. its always preferable to gank a lane for a stack than it is to get one farming.
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Feb 24, 2016 13:43
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Ganking as devo after you've finished the item also delays all the spawn cycles of camps you would have killed, reveals you on the map, and can fail and get you 0 stacks or dead if things go wrong. It's still a good idea if some of your laners are backed on the other side of the map so you shouldn't invade, you know your targets don't have summoners and the other laners don't have global presence. Pretty much if you're sure there's no way you can get counterganked/tped on or otherwise lose the fight or fail the gank. All of these conditions are easier to fulfill the more efficiently you've counterjungled and warded. Before you've finished the devourer enchant it's fine to gank because it can get you the gold to finish the enchant really early. The best thing ever is to countergank or willingly get counterganked, kill everyone, and get like a 5 minute devourer, then go get a pre-6 minute dragon Whether you've finished the item or not, you absolutely can't sit in a bush and wait, or take a long route and pass up camps. No one should really do this except junglers that only gank, or if you're waiting on a cooldown--Thresh lantern, global ult, another laner to converge. It also can be worth it if your targets have bounties or you're setting up a big objective take. You never see devo in pro play because laners take all the camps, you get called to push lanes and take early towers instead of killing jungle camps, and have to build sightstone or have traps. Only the best early game junglers with good CC and huge base damage get to do that.
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Feb 24, 2016 14:26
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A Saucy Bratwurst posted:If you cant get scuttle AND kill a lane you gotta git gud. its always preferable to gank a lane for a stack than it is to get one farming. slydingdoor posted:Ganking as devo after you've finished the item also delays all the spawn cycles of camps you would have killed, reveals you on the map, and can fail and get you 0 stacks or dead if things go wrong. the sorts of junglers who go devo outside of Xin also aren't particularly strong gankers if the lane you're ganking doesn't have hard crowd control. it's not about "git gud" because the better opponents you face the more they're going to punish you for going devourer. you're probably gonna get counter jungled to hell by the opposing jungler if they had even the slightest idea on how to set you behind. can devo junglers work? yeah of course. but why bother going through that effort when you could just pick elise or (and god forbid if he's unbanned) udyr.
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Feb 24, 2016 15:04
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Gridlocked posted:He said it was because they don't have time to farm the stacks. I say it's because they don't play farm-for-20-min-and-carry-junglers who want Devourer but rather ones that have Cinderhulk/Warrior/Echos and can impact the game more readily. You are absolutely correct. I actually think there are a handful of devourer junglers that are strong enough to work in the current meta, but pro teams are too worried that they will get brutalized in the first 15 minutes of the game to try them outside of scrims. And they're probably viable but not ideal. As Rabid says... rabidsquid posted:Nidalee is a way stronger carry jungler in pro play than any devourer jungler ever could be Yup. And Graves. And Kindred. And Lee Sin. etc. rabidsquid posted:I hate 99% of the people who play devourer junglers because I hate the play style it promotes which isn't fun even if your team happens to win I kind of agree with this. A champion who AFK farms for 30 minutes then becomes nigh-unkillable (I'm looking at you, Master Yi) really isn't that interesting of a champion because every game is essentially a toss up: does Yi's team lose the early game hard enough to or do they keep it close enough that the Yi-machine gets into gear? And we know the answer to this question! The answer is that the latter happens roughly 52% of the time.
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Feb 24, 2016 15:04
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devourer doesn't seem too bad if you remember that at least they eventually stop farming. like remember the old feral flare where it would be 50 mins and all your inhibs were down and there's an udyr with 200 onhit stacks still farming wraiths. good poo poo imo
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Feb 24, 2016 15:08
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My favorite was when the item came out and every loving piece of poo poo idiot was bum rushing the jungle role and taking it from me to play feral flare nautilus or maokai or some other characters that had no right reason in the world to loving buy that item and farm endlessly. When I cared about ranked that patch ended up in me getting demoted two divisions. You couldn't win with that kinda garbage. I think that and the over buff to heal where it was better than barrier pound for pound and gave like a two second boost of movespeed made that quite possibly the worst patch in the game for me
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Feb 24, 2016 15:20
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I lost a game because I had Devourer Graves. I don't know why, maybe he thought the autos would do double damage or something?
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Feb 24, 2016 15:25
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Devourer is gonna keep winning games in solo queue purely on how powerful it gets if you don't a) cause enough hell early game to force the jungler to either let his team 4v5 and get behind or b) get outplayed by coordinated ganks, good vision or counter jungleing. In most solo queue games people are gonna be more focused on their lane; not the repercussions of ignoring the Devourer-Guy's farm on some annoying auto-attack champ like Yi or Xin. Especially on like Gold and below where the most team interaction you see "GG noob" if you give first blood, or a bunch of pings with no text; having coordinated counter juggling is hard as poo poo.
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Feb 24, 2016 15:30
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I mean, unless you're such a baby that you need your jungler to camp for you every game and for you to snowball, having a devo jungler isn't that much different from having a "regular" jungler that tries to snowball their lanes and hose enemy laners instead of snowballing themselves hosing the other jungler. If your entire teams sucks at taking objectives or the midgame in general, it can even be optimal If the enemy counterjungles you on devo, then they aren't ganking either. Then it becomes a question of who farms the jungle faster and more efficiently, or who can contest an invade better. Exhaust Shyvana is still good at both of these things, even if the enemy is also good at dueling and farming, like Nidalee, who you body because you can chase her without flash and exhaust her. The matchup can still be super bad such that the offensive summoner doesn't matter though. Echoes Udyr does everything better, as does Xin, and they dictate any fight against you. They can CC you and run away if they're going to lose ie during the exhaust, then chase you down if they're going to win ie while exhaust is down. I always play either of them instead of Shyvana if they're unbanned if I really want to win, especially after the dumbass new Runic Echoes and Xin buffs.
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Feb 24, 2016 15:31
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Servaetes posted:My favorite was when the item came out and every loving piece of poo poo idiot was bum rushing the jungle role and taking it from me to play feral flare nautilus or maokai or some other characters that had no right reason in the world to loving buy that item and farm endlessly. When I cared about ranked that patch ended up in me getting demoted two divisions. You couldn't win with that kinda garbage. i saw someone build it on loving nunu. to be fair, watching him attack that fast was quite funny
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Feb 24, 2016 15:34
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slydingdoor posted:Ganking as devo after you've finished the item also delays all the spawn cycles of camps you would have killed, reveals you on the map, and can fail and get you 0 stacks or dead if things go wrong. It's still a good idea if some of your laners are backed on the other side of the map so you shouldn't invade, you know your targets don't have summoners and the other laners don't have global presence. Pretty much if you're sure there's no way you can get counterganked/tped on or otherwise lose the fight or fail the gank. All of these conditions are easier to fulfill the more efficiently you've counterjungled and warded. Before you've finished the devourer enchant it's fine to gank because it can get you the gold to finish the enchant really early. The best thing ever is to countergank or willingly get counterganked, kill everyone, and get like a 5 minute devourer, then go get a pre-6 minute dragon Or on the other hand, play a good devourer jungler and gank. Yeah so what if you kill the camp a little later, this is a team game and putting pressure on the map is the junglers job. Being selfish and only farming because the enemy jungler might take your camps is just bad. Use your wards defensively and if you see them take your jungle A) Kill them with your team or B) Take theirs. If you play a devourer jungler and never gank at all because you are worried about counterjungling, you are bad. Full stop. Gank or don't play jungle. As much as I love yi, he is bad for the reason he can not gank. Play devourer udyr or shyvana or xin instead.
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Feb 24, 2016 15:55
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I like devo+bork trundle and it wins a lot in bronze
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Feb 24, 2016 16:00
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If Shyvana can gank then Yi can gank, they're both champs with a gapcloser + movespeed but no lockdown
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Feb 24, 2016 16:04
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Shyvana ganks much better than Yi
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Feb 24, 2016 16:07
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I'll never understand the widespread obsession with trying to play a scaling melee carry in the 4th place gold earning role which is defined by early game contribution. It's a mystery that has baffled me for years.
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Feb 24, 2016 16:10
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good thing to do on devourer junglers is to steal chicken buff every time you can and plant deep vision. while their ganks aren't always great they tend to be solid countergankers that can take great advantage of the overcommitment of a gank.
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Feb 24, 2016 16:12
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Libertine posted:I'll never understand the widespread obsession with trying to play a scaling melee carry in the 4th place gold earning role which is defined by early game contribution. It's a mystery that has baffled me for years. Because in solo queue if you don't stick your head out of your jungle for too long people will ignore you while you farm. Also because in solo queue you can wait for say top to go roaming then farm his lane to supplement your income rather then push for objectives.
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Feb 24, 2016 16:13
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Those urgot changes aren't coming this patch that makes me sad.
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Feb 24, 2016 16:14
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Tales of Woe posted:If Shyvana can gank then Yi can gank, they're both champs with a gapcloser + movespeed but no lockdown Except shyvana has her movespeed level 1 and does considerably more early game damage. Libertine posted:I'll never understand the widespread obsession with trying to play a scaling melee carry in the 4th place gold earning role which is defined by early game contribution. It's a mystery that has baffled me for years. this is the other reason yi is bad, he has to go full damage to do his thing whereas shyv/udyr/xin go tanky after 1-2 items.
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Feb 24, 2016 16:14
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Libertine posted:I'll never understand the widespread obsession with trying to play a scaling melee carry in the 4th place gold earning role which is defined by early game contribution. It's a mystery that has baffled me for years.
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Feb 24, 2016 16:26
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It's not that you're worried about getting counterjungled as devo while you gank, it's that you're being inefficient and taking a high risk. If your laners lost really hard, have no sums, the enemy has sums, have no vision control, the enemy has vision control, there are lower risk things to take, etc. then the likely outcome of a gank is usually getting nothing, or worse, outplayed. The risk is that the enemy will kill your weak laner and/or you then escape with their sums, or if there's a countergank, you all dying and snowballing the enemy team even more. This happens whether you're devo or not. If the opposite conditions are true, then ganking and farming aren't mutually exclusive: an enemy laner becomes another easy-take objective that you're as stupid to not take on spawn as any other objective. The reason devo is fun and effective that you can win and pressure the map even without having good gank-setup laners that also win lane and push hard--Garen, Graves, Quinn, Cass, Vlad, Sona, Soraka, any assassin. How often do you hear bad junglers complain that all their lanes are pushed so they can't gank? Especially if they're slow farmers that have trouble soloing objectives and dueling? If they were a devo jungler they'd be crushing the enemy jungler and eating every objective by themselves, leaving their own camps for their laners to take, and snowballing instead of starving. Also like I said, if the enemy jungler is starved, their ganks suck because they either risk running into you in the jungle, or they have to gank predictably and at a lower level with less gold. If you get counterjungled as devo, then the other jungler is wasting their time and you're winning because you farm faster and they aren't ganking. What you're really afraid of as devo is a better devo jungler or counterjungler (Nunu) with better laners that make your counterjungling really risky. If you pick devo into Nunu Kalista and all your lanes get pushed in, you've got your work cut out for you. You'll have to gank and devo junglers tend to kinda suck at that. You're playing against your strengths. I absolutely agree that if you farm on a ganking jungler you suck, but you're not a lovely jungler if you control the jungle and only gank when it's low risk, no matter how much your dumbass laners whine. They're only complaining about your being "selfish" because they don't understand all the ways a jungler can carry the game, and only care if a they're the ones that carry the game.
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Feb 24, 2016 16:28
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Tales of Woe posted:outscaling is one of the easiest ways to win in low elo (easy in terms of mental effort, not necessarily success rate) and teams often aren't coordinated enough to punish your lack of map pressure in the first 20 mins This. Little-to-no coordination with anyone who isn't in a duo with you and inability to close a game out will ensure the game goes on long enough that most scaling champs will hit their power spikes often enough to make a big difference.
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Feb 24, 2016 16:33
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A Saucy Bratwurst posted:Except shyvana has her movespeed level 1 and does considerably more early game damage. All the Yi's I've seen that have done well build Devourer, Titanic Hydra, Sunfire/Deadmans, Visage and end up being a total shitlord because of it. Full damage Yi is garbage except in bronze imo.
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Feb 24, 2016 16:40
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sometimes you just gotta enter the Yi Zone
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Feb 24, 2016 16:41
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The Shortest Path posted:All the Yi's I've seen that have done well build Devourer, Titanic Hydra, Sunfire/Deadmans, Visage and end up being a total shitlord because of it. Nope full damage yi is bad in bronze too.
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Feb 24, 2016 16:42
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Things aren't really "bad" in bronze apart from actual nonfunctional builds like stacking AP on Graves or some poo poo.
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Feb 24, 2016 16:48
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slydingdoor posted:It's not that you're worried about getting counterjungled as devo while you gank, it's that you're being inefficient and taking a high risk. If your laners lost really hard, have no sums, the enemy has sums, have no vision control, the enemy has vision control, there are lower risk things to take, etc. then the likely outcome of a gank is usually getting nothing, or worse, outplayed. The risk is that the enemy will kill your weak laner and/or you then escape with their sums, or if there's a countergank, you all dying and snowballing the enemy team even more. This happens whether you're devo or not. This is a lot of words about not ganking as the jungler. Even if you get "nothing" in terms of summoners or KDA because the laner was ahead, you still get a reduction of pressure on your lane by forcing the enemy back/damaging them so they can't all in etc. If you aren't doing that, your lanes will lose. Counterjungling is far far riskier than ganking and as a devourer jungler you lose a hell of a lot more failing an invade than not getting a kill or a summoner ganking. Theres literally no reason to not gank as the jungler. Getting your sated a minute earlier when all your lanes are losing isn't going to win you the game. Always be ganking. I am a jungle main who doesn't give a gently caress about what the laners want, I want to win, I gank.
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Feb 24, 2016 16:59
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Tales of Woe posted:outscaling is one of the easiest ways to win in low elo (easy in terms of mental effort, not necessarily success rate) and teams often aren't coordinated enough to punish your lack of map pressure in the first 20 mins I feel like this is not a mental error, but an expectations one. I'm never afraid of someone locking in a hyper carry in a standard role but especially less so in the jungle role, because it's hedging against an enormous risk of failure. You make one or two early mistakes/deaths on a scaling carry and you are basically out of the game unless you can get your team to freeze it the game for you for 40 minutes to get back into it, and out of the jungle it basically means your laners will be on their own for the whole game and have to pay for any mistakes you made. The reason pros never run scaling/Devo junglers is because the Jungler, like the Support, has to take the calculated risks with imperfect information for their team of actual carries to succeed at almost any Elo above clown fiesta. If you charge in to make an early game gank happen and get put on your rear end by a counter-gank, that's a rough early game loss, but it shouldn't be the end for you, the Jungler. But it is the end for you and for your team's ability to receive pressure if you then have to retreat into the jungle to farm for a half hour to recoup that loss. The only kind of characters I've jungled in the past few years are pro style high base value utility tanks who can provide information/vision while still powerful through most of the early/mid game just on pure numbers or characters so overloaded on certain patches that they qualify for all of those things and can still do that stuff. The reason that jungle picks at the competitive level are always so stagnant and lack diversity is because there just isn't a compelling reason to take the enormous risk on carry jungling when you can get a reliably better performance 9 out of 10 times with a standard "high base/good CC" cycling ganker. We talk about this a lot in the pro thread, but I think the Jungle player should pretty much always be the shot caller in terms of competitive play or solo queue play (if they have even the foggiest idea of how to do it). Because most solo queue teams struggle enormously to initiate fights and being the person with Smite, vision, information, and the decision-making power to call objectives like Dragon and Baron, if you concede the role of fight initiator to someone else who has less perfect information you end up with a lot more fights you aren't ready / willing to be a part of that can go to poo poo fast. Melee carries can almost never do this, and in fact the more fed they get, often times the more aggressive they get and the more easily focused down they get.
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Feb 24, 2016 17:02
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I've been doing something different with Jhin. I do essence reaver + PD + CD boots. In team fights my goal is to stay in auto range because that's dancing grenade range. I aim to achieve constant damage output through multi man bouncing grenades and DFT. I try to save the roots for priority targets or peeling. Jhin can actually peel pretty well for himself if you use the traps, roots, and speed boost properly. I'm not too sold on the fourth crit being guaranteed as actually being a big damage boost. The problem is you build 50% crit on him in the first two items. The expected amount of crits in 4 AAs for 50% crit is 2. If you get 2 or more crits in the first 3 AA's, 50% chance, you get extra damage, otherwise you actually lose damage because his crits do 25% less damage. Overall though, it should still be a damage boost, I just question it's significance. The other aspect of his passive may make this statement less accurate, but I've yet to see anything besides crappy diagrams that don't really prove anything in this regard.
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Feb 24, 2016 17:04
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I wish the pros didn't still play Elise jungle because I really hate seeing low elo Elise
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Feb 24, 2016 17:08
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I have yet to see anyone completing a sated devourer in time while the game wasn't already snowballed one way or another.
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Feb 24, 2016 17:16
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Just to clarify: the devo jungler strategy is a "win more," "disrespect," "pocket" strategy. It's best when you have strong laners and want to shut down the other jungler so they can't bail them out or become relevant at all, and really low probability if the conditions I talked about aren't fulfilled. It's like picking an AP carry mage support--it lets another position potentially snowball so they can make up for an underfed carry in another position or completely overwhelmingly snowball the game in terms of damage and fights. Even picking it is a gamble, but it's not stupid or always wrong unless you don't understand how or why it works. slydingdoor fucked around with this message at 17:28 on Feb 24, 2016 |
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Feb 24, 2016 17:24
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Kashuno posted:I wish the pros didn't still play Elise jungle because I really hate seeing low elo Elise Yeah I'm such a bad Elise player but she is so good right now. It's frustrating.
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Feb 24, 2016 17:32
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slydingdoor posted:Just to clarify: the devo jungler strategy is a "win more," "disrespect," "pocket" strategy. It's best when you have strong laners and want to shut down the other jungler so they can't bail them out or become relevant at all, and really low probability if the conditions I talked about aren't fulfilled. The main draw to devourer in solo queue is not necessarily that devourer junglers *carry* so much that they *close* games. Almost all of them are lightspeed objective-takers so if they get an inch they can take a mile.
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Feb 24, 2016 17:46
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I saw on PBE they were toying with making GP kegs store only 3 maximim? At any level? That would completely gut him in teamfights I think since you generally need to throw 2 kegs to reliably get them off without getting killed by the other team, hope that isn't something they're really doing
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Feb 24, 2016 18:00
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Pretty sure that's coming
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Feb 24, 2016 18:07
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a medical mystery posted:The main draw to devourer in solo queue is not necessarily that devourer junglers *carry* so much that they *close* games. Almost all of them are lightspeed objective-takers so if they get an inch they can take a mile.
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Feb 24, 2016 18:11
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Tales of Woe posted:sometimes you just gotta enter the Yi Zone agreed NEW PRO AS HECK MASTER YI BUILD  runes: movespeed quints, everything else attack speed build: devourer jungle, mob boots, and 3 zeals should be your midgame goal build each of the zeals into phantom dancer, statik shiv, and trinity force for maximum go fast last item is your choice, though duskblade isn't a bad choice and neither is ohmwrecker for those SICK NASTY TOWER KILLS
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Feb 24, 2016 18:21
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I build devo on junglers when problems come along, or when something's going wrong. I find it helps me get straight, go forward, and move ahead.
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Feb 24, 2016 18:24
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