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I think it's important to remember that for the writers this probably isn't their only job. An 'afternoon' spent compiling files may very well be, "Hey SLS, please wait for me to get home from the farm/factory/Olive Garden so I can send you those files." I don't imagine this excuses the delays by a long shot but when imagining Holden et al sitting around all afternoon slowly compiling files it's something to keep in mind.
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Feb 24, 2016 19:57
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I'm pretty sure that Holden and Mørke are both unemployed aside from this, although Mørke may be taking college classes right now? I know they're both pretty severely financially insecure.
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Feb 24, 2016 20:04
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RiotGearEpsilon posted:I'm pretty sure that Holden and Mørke are both unemployed aside from this, although Mørke may be taking college classes right now? I know they're both pretty severely financially insecure. Still, being unemployed can take up a surprising amount of time especially if you don't have a lot of money coming in. I'm not saying that there aren't a lot of unexplained delays over there, or that it's okay for a product to be this late. I'm just suggested that when you see "lol it takes 6 hours to update and send a file?" what may actually be going on is, "I will do that as soon as I can."
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Feb 24, 2016 20:11
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Today's Monday Meeting update: "Ex 3 core book – From RichT: Maria adding bookmarks to PDF, prepping printer files, and we’re getting an index for it." So, the book is done except for indexing. (I got confirmation on this from Holden.)
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Feb 24, 2016 20:16
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All the free time and focus in the world isn't going to help you if your actual workflow sucks, which is what's suggested by every single shred of evidence we have of the Ex3 layout and editing process.
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Feb 24, 2016 20:18
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Can we just, like, start a kickstarter to get these guys a copy of InDesign or get Chernobyl Peace Prize to do their layout for them or something? because there's an entire edition's worth of books to do yet and I want to see Alchemicals before I die
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Feb 24, 2016 22:58
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Autonomous Monster posted:Can we just, like, start a kickstarter to get these guys a copy of InDesign or get Chernobyl Peace Prize to do their layout for them or something? We can encourage them to include 'writers get basic tools they need to do their job' as a stretch goal for the next kickstarter I guess
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Feb 24, 2016 23:13
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Thought of something for people who don't like the whole "Ignore all Essence requirements when learning Charms" aspect of Supernal skills but still like the idea of being the best person around at being a Melee fighter or a Social butterfly or whatever. Make it into a uber-specialty that applies to anything you do with that skill. So, for example, a Melee supernal guy gets a extra die when he does anything related to melee, whether it be dual wielding knives or swinging a battleaxe because he's just that good. Should also free up an extra specialty to round out your character a bit, as most people feel obliged to have at least one specialty for their Supernal skill.
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Feb 24, 2016 23:48
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"Choose a skill; treat that skill as though it enjoys every conceivable specialty" is kind of cool, although it kind of undercuts a few lore charms and other effects that work by granting or moving around specialties. Here's my unrelated time-saving idea: when battle groups make big attacks such that they'll be rolling attack dice at multiple solar PCs at once, instead of asking each PC if and how they defend and then rolling once they've decided, you just make one big roll for the battle group right away and let each individual respond with defensive charms or WP expenditures or whatever after the fact (rather than making ahead-of-roll blind bets). BUT the costs of any such charms are doubled, to represent the fact that they're probably being used repeatedly and also to counteract the incredible efficiency advantage you gain from being able to perfectly adjust how many motes to dump into your excellencies so as to just barely evade the attack.
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Feb 24, 2016 23:56
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Ferrinus posted:"Choose a skill; treat that skill as though it enjoys every conceivable specialty" is kind of cool, although it kind of undercuts a few lore charms and other effects that work by granting or moving around specialties. I might go with a flat surcharge instead of a doubling, but I'd have to play with various numbers to really figure it out.
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Feb 25, 2016 00:18
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A flat surcharge was my first thought but since defensive charms might cost any combination of motes, willpower, and initiative it seemed really tricky to decide on.
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Feb 25, 2016 00:24
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Oh, hey, a Kickstarter update. Is it finallyquote:Right now, we are sending the totally corrected PDF out to get its index created, which should take a month ...oh.
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Feb 25, 2016 01:00
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At this point I assume they somehow lost the money they need to print the books (e: bullish position on bitcoin, maybe) and Holden and Morke have to engage in high risk cat burglaries to raise enough funds.
Nessus fucked around with this message at 01:09 on Feb 25, 2016 |
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Feb 25, 2016 01:05
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If they just released the PDF there would be a fan-made index in a week at most.
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Feb 25, 2016 01:12
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A month is actually pretty fast for a professionally-made index.
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Feb 25, 2016 01:26
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A month is a good turnaround time for a third-party indicer to knock something out, but the index of a book, when it is made by professionals, takes almost no time at all.
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Feb 25, 2016 01:38
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Rand Brittain posted:A month is actually pretty fast for a professionally-made index. Oh my god dude.
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Feb 25, 2016 02:02
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Schwarzwald posted:If that's the interview that I think it is, then I don't remember it actually being that harsh on Exalted. I read it as more a condemnation of White Wolf's NwoD trying to work in Exalted as the back story of everything.
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Feb 25, 2016 02:45
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Rand Brittain posted:A month is actually pretty fast for a professionally-made index. I do not believe this to be a true fact
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Feb 25, 2016 02:49
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Liquid Communism posted:I read it as more a condemnation of White Wolf's NwoD trying to work in Exalted as the back story of everything. What?
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Feb 25, 2016 02:52
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Liquid Communism posted:I read it as more a condemnation of White Wolf's NwoD trying to work in Exalted as the back story of everything. The NWoD never did that. The OWoD briefly did that, but backed off fast.
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Feb 25, 2016 02:53
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I think Exalted briefly did the reverse, as well, but I also don't remember that coming to much.
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Feb 25, 2016 03:04
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Rand Brittain posted:A month is actually pretty fast for a professionally-made index.
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Feb 25, 2016 03:25
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Nessus posted:I asked a friend of mine who teaches people how to use desktop publishing software and he said it'd probably be a day's work for a 400 page text. Say 3 days for a 700 page one like this. Granted, of course, you may be addressing a freelancer with a ton of other projects, because people in this economy either have nothing or are horribly overloaded so that the gods may feast on our sorrows, but I don't think it would take a month of work to do. I find it very difficult to believe that any given indexer could read Exalted 3e in three days, much less be in a position to know what needs to go into the index and what doesn't.
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Feb 25, 2016 04:09
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I find it very difficult to believe that what needs to go into the index and what doesn't will have any bearing on the index we get.
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Feb 25, 2016 05:06
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Rand Brittain posted:I find it very difficult to believe that any given indexer could read Exalted 3e in three days, much less be in a position to know what needs to go into the index and what doesn't.
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Feb 25, 2016 05:15
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A month to produce an index with many errors would be reasonable and understandable for a team not using automatic indexing software. What is neither reasonable nor understandable is the team not using automatic indexing software in TYooL 2016 when it's available for loving free, to say nothing of cloud-based file-hosting services that would allow all members access to the latest revision pass at any time.
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Feb 25, 2016 06:02
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Rand Brittain posted:I find it very difficult to believe that any given indexer could read Exalted 3e in three days, much less be in a position to know what needs to go into the index and what doesn't. As Chernobyl Peace Prize has said like five times, f they'd been keeping proper tags during the development process, the index would literally create itself with a single button press, and all you'd have to do is check for user error. Even assuming everyone involved with the project has another full time job, if they'd done that, lmao forever if you think that'd take more than a week. If you seriously think a solid month of work is an acceptable turnaround time for an index for a project you've been working on for years, you've either never worked on a project like this, or never actually worked on a project like this where the bar for competence wasn't roughly "Bulk and Skull from Power Rangers."
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Feb 25, 2016 06:59
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Brand Retain.
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Feb 25, 2016 07:01
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spectralent posted:I think Exalted briefly did the reverse, as well, but I also don't remember that coming to much. I can't be completely sure, as I got into the line during 2E, but from what I'd seen the most it amounted to was the blurb on the back cover implying it's the pre-history of WoD. I still think a game that basically amounts to a WoD/Exalted crossover is a good, or at least fun, idea. I am deeply sorry.
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Feb 25, 2016 07:42
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Bedlamdan posted:I can't be completely sure, as I got into the line during 2E, but from what I'd seen the most it amounted to was the blurb on the back cover implying it's the pre-history of WoD. I'd agree, except it'd be oWoD, which is neither good nor fun, in this, AD 2016.
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Feb 25, 2016 07:53
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Rand Brittain posted:I find it very difficult to believe that any given indexer could read Exalted 3e in three days, much less be in a position to know what needs to go into the index and what doesn't. No one should have to read anything, man. This should be automated!
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Feb 25, 2016 08:00
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Attorney at Funk posted:I'd agree, except it'd be oWoD, which is neither good nor fun, in this, AD 2016.
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Feb 25, 2016 08:15
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Nessus posted:*installs bloodlines at u* imho bloodlines is a good metaphor for oWoD in general because it starts out really strong in the beginning and by the end you're slogging through battles to the death with kaiju monsters.
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Feb 25, 2016 08:22
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oh and, it's really only in an acceptable state if you download the fan-patch, which I suspect is a metaphor for houseruling.
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Feb 25, 2016 08:25
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Bloodlines was emblematic of oWoD revised, which was basically nWoD already. It told a local, character-driven story peppered with low-key weirdness.
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Feb 25, 2016 08:29
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RiotGearEpsilon posted:No one should have to read anything, man. This should be automated! By "automated" people seem to mean that the writers should be trained to tag everything they write when they write it so that the index can be picked out that way. That isn't actually a small task, and given that RPG writers are already mostly underpaid to the point of being volunteers, it's not surprising that this isn't how it happens. I don't actually know anybody who constructs indexes the way you're describing. Maybe it's more common in other industries? But it's not common here. If you think it ought to be, maybe you should start finding or creating best practices guides and sending them to the major RPG publishers so they can benefit from your experience! ...that's not even really sarcasm. I keep wishing I had a copy of "Developing A Complex Art Project With A Small Team of Fanatical Amateurs And Hardly Any Money For Dummies." If you write one, I'll buy it!
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Feb 25, 2016 08:38
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Rand Brittain posted:By "automated" people seem to mean that the writers should be trained to tag everything they write when they write it so that the index can be picked out that way. That isn't actually a small task, and given that RPG writers are already mostly underpaid to the point of being volunteers, it's not surprising that this isn't how it happens. That's how we did Myriad Song, with two people, and Microsoft Word. Because it's easier that way. I mean - yes, it's harder than just not doing it, but then you still need an index. If you're going to do the index, and you're writing a book, the easiest way to do it is to tag your poo poo and let the machine handle all the pagination. I mean, I'm not just talking poo poo from a position of complete ignorance. I've been part of a project to make an RPG! With an index! This is a thing that I did! What frustates me is that Holden and Mørke should have _more_ assets, _more_ tools, _more_ guidance from their peers than our tiny indie project did, and it seems like they've either no access to those things or they've actively rejected them?! RiotGearEpsilon fucked around with this message at 08:50 on Feb 25, 2016 |
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Feb 25, 2016 08:42
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I guess if you were building an index manually... well, I guess you could just build some kind of spreadsheet for the 700 Charms, which presumably are what people are likely to search for the most often, because they have to find Resplendent Crane Stance vs. Resplendent Crane Style. Otherwise I'm figuring you have some kind of mix of: * You have terms you want in your index, and the indexer hits ctrl-F on the final draft and marks down when they appear. (Alternately, they tag them for the autoindexing software.) * The indexer goes through page by page and reads for key words and references if you're getting real completionist about every mention of the Guild or Dragon-Blooded or whatever, noting down which page they appear on. (And possibly also tagging them as they go.) The immediately obvious bug is that you'd get twenty entries for DBs on the two pages where they appear, but I assume indexing software corrects for this somehow, and if not, it'd be relatively easy to remove extraneous entries in the final index. This might not get you the most exhaustive index possible but Charms + similar + key terms + artifacts and monster outline names seems like it'd be a good go of it. How is indexing usually done?
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Feb 25, 2016 10:38
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The thing that bothers me most about this situation is that nobody at Onyx Path seems willing to admit there's a problem at all. We're supposed to pretend the project being so late is perfectly acceptable… somehow? How are they supposed to do better with the other books if they won't sit down to even reflect on what went wrong? I mean, honestly. None of their other properties have this problem. Regardless of whether a month for an index is sensible, I don't think being years late is anything to brush off casually. At the very least, I'd like to see a post-mortem eventually personally.
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Feb 25, 2016 12:59
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