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apple posted:I still visit the wiki sometimes, and while I imagine a player visiting the wiki is something crawl development strives to avoid needing to do, it's still pretty helpful for a number of things. I think GDR is a sensitive subject because it's an invisible (in-game) stat where knowing about it does make a tangible difference from a purely mathematical standpoint. You can argue how big or small this difference is, and whether this difference is worth factoring with other things like encumbrance, but if it was completely inconsequential it should have been removed a long time ago. I'm not a big fan of invisible secret numbers, but the problem with making GDR visible is that we'd be implying that it was worth caring about. I can see an argument for removing both GDR and accuracy penalties from armour, since they're both nearly invisible and roughly equal & opposite in significance, but it'd require some discussion. (Or possibly just reducing accuracy penalties? They're much more significant in the early game, probably...)
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Feb 26, 2016 18:28
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World Famous W posted:
By the way, when did you end up replacing that mace? Afraid I got distracted then fell asleep last night after watching you for a bit. Watching the abyss dick you over with irritation was good fun though. Funny how that worked out. I was looking for an online game with a Vine stalker, accidentally clicked World Famous W's game and didn't realize it was a goon until I saw that mace. PleasingFungus posted:Just the player! Cool! Matlock Birthmark fucked around with this message at 19:52 on Feb 26, 2016 |
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Feb 26, 2016 18:29
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PleasingFungus posted:(Or possibly just reducing accuracy penalties? They're much more significant in the early game, probably...) Accuracy penalties rarely make a lot of difference except in the early game, where they subject fighty characters to all kinds of unnecessary annoyance with strings of misses against enemies they should be able to simply knock down and walk over. Stealth, EV, and casting penalties are existing meaningful drawbacks to heavy armour, and they remain relevant to varying degrees for pretty much the whole game; just ditch the accuracy penalties altogether IMO. I might be slightly biased - armour accuracy penalties are particularly easy to notice on GSC-wielding Ogres, who spend most of the early game with crap for armour choices and then throw on a dragon armour and wander around missing more often with their inaccurate tree trunks, because they spent all their xp on skills that would keep their present selves alive instead of skills that would keep their hypothetical dragon armour-clad future selves alive. 
Angry Diplomat fucked around with this message at 18:44 on Feb 26, 2016 |
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Feb 26, 2016 18:41
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Angry Diplomat posted:Accuracy penalties rarely make a lot of difference except in the early game, where they subject fighty characters to all kinds of unnecessary annoyance with strings of misses against enemies they should be able to simply knock down and walk over. Stealth, EV, and casting penalties are existing meaningful drawbacks to heavy armour, and they remain relevant to varying degrees for pretty much the whole game; just ditch the accuracy penalties altogether IMO. I think dropping both would be great, though it feels like it would ultimately be a buff to high-AC melee characters in the early game (find plate armor on D2, smash through next four levels largely immune to *most* damage sources at those levels, no penalty to accuracy means even fewer turns spent with enemy making damage rolls that might punch through your armor.
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Feb 26, 2016 18:52
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PleasingFungus posted:I'm not a big fan of invisible secret numbers, but the problem with making GDR visible is that we'd be implying that it was worth caring about. Assuming that some form of bad damage roll mitigation is wanted, then you could make the math behind it more simple/effective so it's easier to display and let the player decide what to do ("Plate reduces all physical damage by 30%, then further reduced by AC!**" vs. "If I have 50 AC and 50 GDR and the enemy does 100 melee damage..."). If such a system is not wanted, just remove GDR and maybe give a slight AC buff to armors to compensate. ** I made up those numbers, of course You could do other things like have GDR tied to AC so it can remain invisible, too, but then GDR would remain a dreaded invisible secret number. apple fucked around with this message at 19:12 on Feb 26, 2016 |
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Feb 26, 2016 19:10
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Clearly the answer is to hide EV, AC, and SH, not just GDR. 
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Feb 26, 2016 19:26
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Somebody suggested a KoAs of Fedhas yesterday. I just finished L8, and I would like to thank that person and floorgod:
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Feb 26, 2016 19:32
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best amulet I've ever seencode:
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Feb 26, 2016 19:51
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PleasingFungus posted:You can argue that you should be more worried about hits that are less than your AC (in which case GDR becomes more proportionately important); I don't have a strong argument for or against that. But it looks to me like AC, spellcasting penalties, egos, and other factors are pretty much all more important than GDR when considering armour choice. This is definitely where GDR is more important, but as you said, another reason why it shouldn't be worried about over AC/EV/spellcasting. A higher GDR enables you to ignore more chip damage in melee if under assault by multiple enemies at once (see: Vaults:5 ambush, guardian serpents, the rear end in a top hat translocation draconians). For the average player, this means that there are less enemies to be concerned about. It also enables cleaving with sources of health regen (Makhleb, vampiric) as a new tactical direction of charging into a horde mostly made of trash mobs for increased survival from the more dangerous enemies, as the trash mobs are now more likely to be a source of healing over harm. However, with that in mind, it becomes important to compare your average AC roll between a set of armor with higher AC and less GDR vs one with lower AC and bigger GDR. If the average roll in the former is going to be higher than the minimum roll in the latter, you should pick the former (even if the potential damage range is more variable), especially since the former will also usually give better EV, have less Spellcasting penalties, require less strength, and still have some GDR itself (with the exception of robes). This also implies that you expect to take hits from multiple weaker minions at once or over an extended period of time, which already implies you may not be playing optimally. Edit: I also agree that GDR should just be replaced with a visible damage reduction percentage or just removed along with accuracy penalties. Floodkiller fucked around with this message at 20:17 on Feb 26, 2016 |
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Feb 26, 2016 20:14
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apple posted:I still visit the wiki sometimes, and while I imagine a player visiting the wiki is something crawl development strives to avoid needing to do, it's still pretty helpful for a number of things. I think GDR is a sensitive subject because it's an invisible (in-game) stat where knowing about it does make a tangible difference from a purely mathematical standpoint. You can argue how big or small this difference is, and whether this difference is worth factoring with other things like encumbrance, but if it was completely inconsequential it should have been removed a long time ago.
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Feb 26, 2016 20:15
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PleasingFungus posted:I'm not a big fan of invisible secret numbers, but the problem with making GDR visible is that we'd be implying that it was worth caring about. I literally cannot imagine a sentence that more strongly justifies removing GDR. Also I'm getting a repeatable crash on local tiles and am too lazy to use the bug tracker. Sometimes when dropping items (using the mouse) the game does not respond until I take another action; and if that action is to drop another item the game crashes instantly. Shift-lick, Shift-click, Shift-click desktop.
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Feb 26, 2016 20:24
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mossyfisk posted:I literally cannot imagine a sentence that more strongly justifies removing GDR. Sounds like the same as https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=10296 , probably.
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Feb 26, 2016 20:27
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PleasingFungus posted:Sounds like the same as https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=10296 , probably. I was going to post the same thing on the bug tracker, but saw that on there already. There's no sense in posting about something twice if most of the info is the same, right?
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Feb 26, 2016 20:30
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kaschei posted:If it were tangible you wouldn't have to do math to detect it Does the "how" in detecting it really matter though? I think it's pretty natural for a player to be curious about it and try to make decisions based on it. GDR brings about a lot of back and forth as to why it may or may not be worth considering, and while I don't think GDR's roundabout way of reducing damage is a good thing and should be changed/removed, I think the discussion behind is cool, fascinating even. If ultimately, in hypothetical optimal land (or even Average Player Land, to lower expectations), GDR considerations are worthless, it still provided an avenue for lesser players to brainstorm and occupy their heads with which I think is not worthless in itself, that's part of what you do in games.
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Feb 26, 2016 20:40
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BigFactory posted:I was going to post the same thing on the bug tracker, but saw that on there already. There's no sense in posting about something twice if most of the info is the same, right? Anything about how to reproduce it more reliably, or information about the platform you're running on (windows 7, 10...?) could be helpful.
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Feb 26, 2016 20:49
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is there a way to make local tiles look like webtiles with all the stupid poo poo on the lower right removed
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Feb 26, 2016 21:05
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Finally did my first 15-rune win, after playing on and off for several years. Here's my morgue file if anyone wants all the details: http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/sambair/morgue-sambair-20160226-204928.txt Now I can finally stop playing as a Gargoyle Fighter and actually enjoy the game.
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Feb 26, 2016 22:37
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the -3 hat of Submission {rF- Int+10} Uh... th--thanks, acquirement...?
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Feb 26, 2016 23:19
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Bondage gear makes you smart
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Feb 26, 2016 23:49
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I have a word on Dart Slugs. So far, an interesting enemy that adds some variety to the early game while not being that challenging. That said, I've noticed that they don't shoot very often, and instead decide to try and get in melee range. Is it intended for them to try and get into melee with the player, since they are laughably nonthreatening in melee. I mean I can understand if the answer is because Slugs are dumb, just wanted to check.
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Feb 27, 2016 00:16
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cheetah7071 posted:Bondage gear makes you smart Also please remove GDR/armor accuracy penalties. Especially armor accuracy penalties. Sage Grimm posted:Zot Defense was more maintained as a first attempt at morphing the crawl code-base to some other game type. It was hilariously buggy and the lead developer Chapayev eventually lost interest in trying to make it work. Instead he focused more time on developing Crawl Sprint which admittedly turned out much better.
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Feb 27, 2016 00:52
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apple posted:Does the "how" in detecting it really matter though? It would be like calling microwaves visible because you can tell they're there when your food gets hotter.
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Feb 27, 2016 01:14
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"Welcome to Hipruze's Jewellery Boutique! What would you like to do? a - 262 gold an uncursed ring of flight (unknown) b - 375 gold an uncursed ring of protection from fire c - 646 gold the ring of Midnight {+Fly rPois MR+ Str+2 Int+2} d - 300 gold an uncursed ring of poison resistance (unknown) e - 600 gold an uncursed amulet of faith f - 67 gold a cursed ring of teleportation (unknown) g - 724 gold the ring of the Slug {SustAt rElec Int+4 Dex+2 SInv} h - 952 gold the ring of Jilovum {+Blink rF+ rC+ MR+ Dex+5} i - 510 gold the ring of the Butterfly {rPois rC+ MP+9}" Holy poo poo, that was the best Gozag shop I've ever opened. (Died since then, of course.)
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Feb 27, 2016 01:46
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Matlock Birthmark posted:I have a word on Dart Slugs. So far, an interesting enemy that adds some variety to the early game while not being that challenging. That said, I've noticed that they don't shoot very often, and instead decide to try and get in melee range. Is it intended for them to try and get into melee with the player, since they are laughably nonthreatening in melee. every ranged monster in the game except orb spiders tries to close to melee. (afaik. possibly there are other exceptions.) it's part of crawl ai's lovable charm?
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Feb 27, 2016 02:02
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Needle nerfs! No needles of slowing, but more sleeping/confusion to make up for it. No more blowgun stabs.
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Feb 27, 2016 02:47
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Doesn't removing blowgun stabs considerably nerf high stealth builds in the postgame?
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Feb 27, 2016 02:50
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OK, I've finally managed to get a GrEE running for the second time only. Last time I took the 3 rune win. This time, I'm going to try for at least a few more if not a 15 rune. I know I can finish a 3 runer as is with my current power, but am a bit worried about gaps that will affect me in other rune branches. So, I have a few questions. Firstly, I have access to all manner of hides, quicksilver and mottled, or troll being the relevant choices. I also have quite a few enchant armour scrolls. I'm thinking mottled, but wanted some advice before blowing them all. Secondly, I've already got Shatter running and am working up firestorm. Staff of energy and amulet of gourmand are a great combo by the way. Any spells I absolutely should get before I go into the other branches? Finally, I'm thinking zot all the way without taking the orb, then slime, abyss, tomb, hells and pan. Is that a good order? Is it worth popping into the zig for a few levels? Here's the dump. http://pastebin.com/cF0M5ZD9 Thanks in advance!
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Feb 27, 2016 02:53
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Matlock Birthmark posted:By the way, when did you end up replacing that mace? Afraid I got distracted then fell asleep last night after watching you for a bit. Watching the abyss dick you over with irritation was good fun though. Also, I hate the Abyss. Thought I should mention that again.
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Feb 27, 2016 03:49
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kaschei posted:Tangible means you can feel it. You can't feel GDR; it is a smoothing of improbable events. You can never tell if you just took 30 damage because the death yak hit you for 35 but your GDR kicked in or you just rolled higher on your AC check. With knowledge of monster damage range you can tell when GDR is working though; it reduces the upper bound of damage. Sure it would require a large sample size and spoiling yourself on monster damage to observe this in-game, but it's observable nevertheless.
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Feb 27, 2016 03:56
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Unimpressed posted:OK, I've finally managed to get a GrEE running for the second time only. Last time I took the 3 rune win. This time, I'm going to try for at least a few more if not a 15 rune. I know I can finish a 3 runer as is with my current power, but am a bit worried about gaps that will affect me in other rune branches. First, skip Quicksilver, you already have an excellent selection of MR sources, and you can't enchant it beyond +0. Might do a ctrl-f ego && robe looking for resistance or archmagi just in case it spawned somewhere and you missed it. I don't have any strong leaning towards the remaining armors, I'm going to arbitrarily pick troll leather because a). i feel like it b). regen stacks c). regen is handy enough in the abyss/pandemonium d). low racial hp. Probably not the best choice though. Second, spells. Nothing to say on this topic today. Too much Stardew Valley and not enough roguelike on my brain. Third, don't do Zot all the way through unless you like Orbs of Fire and have spare Cure Mutation. You could do it, but why bother? One to four is going to be much less of a strain on your consumables. A few levels of Zigs are always quite manageable, but the moment they're not... splat. I haven't gotten quite that good at judging when to bail out but the signs are there, and you have wands of heal wounds, hasting, massive AOEs. Gonna say put Tomb at the very end of the list and note that I don't see any rCorr in that dump except for one randart leather way back on lair:2 so I'd also push Slime second to last. Fourth, +0 buckler is decidedly below average after three runes. Nothing better showing up with ctrl-f "buckler && ego" or shield && artefact (probably not worth switching to regular unless something really good shows up) or anything like that? If nothing shows up, why not try out an armor acquirement with that scroll? Fifth, how did I miss this. Do Crypt (not Tomb) before anything else, esp. Zot. Mild source of XP and loot, you won't have hunger issues with your gear. P.S. World Famous W, what server/nick do you play on? N/M, stumbled across you on CBRO. LordSloth fucked around with this message at 04:33 on Feb 27, 2016 |
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Feb 27, 2016 04:30
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PleasingFungus posted:every ranged monster in the game except orb spiders tries to close to melee. (afaik. possibly there are other exceptions.) it's part of crawl ai's lovable charm? I was thinking of them like Centaurs, which I don't think close range. Though it could be I'm almost always trying to just close range myself. (Centaurs have killed me a bunch) World Famous W posted:Ha, I replaced it after finishing up Slime and switching from Zin to TSO so I could make a Sacred Scourge. I also found an Eveningstar of Freezing so non-evil bastards are handled now to. About to start playing again if ya' happen to be on and want to watch Hell, Pan, and Tomb. Sure, I'm down. Might learn something.
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Feb 27, 2016 04:39
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Yaaaaaay.Angry Diplomat posted:Doesn't removing blowgun stabs considerably nerf high stealth builds in the postgame?
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Feb 27, 2016 04:39
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How does it affect the Assassin background? Aren't needlestabs pretty much the only thing they have in the earlygame?
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Feb 27, 2016 04:46
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No? They have A Blowgun with Needles™, which trivializes almost everything in the earlygame regardless of whether you have blowgun stabs or not, and curare which fucks almost all uniques
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Feb 27, 2016 04:53
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RPATDO_LAMD posted:How does it affect the Assassin background? Aren't needlestabs pretty much the only thing they have in the earlygame? I don't think so really. The background starts with a blowgun, poison and curare, which is much more significant early.
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Feb 27, 2016 04:54
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Hepatituslanu comments: http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/password/morgue-password-20160227-033805.txt I went with Hexer and the teleport on death power. I tried Knight and Battlemage as well on prior games and the former was decent enough while the latter was underwhelming, but I didn't get either to a particularly high level to see how they turn out. The Hexer was an excellent partner to have along the the entire way and having a portable mass-slow and confusion ally was immensely useful. Piety seems entirely useless for the god. I never felt a need to cast either of the invocations a single time. Romanticize seemed pointless since the ancestor ghost either had poo poo covered and didn't need it, or I wanted it to die and teleport away anything dangerous enough to threaten it or myself. I can see how Transference could be useful, but if I was ever threatened enough to need it, the ancestor was already dead or soon to die and teleport away said danger, or I just used a blink/teleport scroll and escaped. Perhaps instead of defensive abilities offensive ones would work better as a piety sink. On another note, with the torment resistance and great gear I thought about at getting the abyss and slime runes as well but after only getting three cure mutation potions in the game and needing one to fix my hosed up character after fighting all of four or five Orbs I decided to just win the thing since seeing my character dive deep into a sea of red mutations isn't particularly fun. Please bring back rMut or remove Malmutate oh god please.
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Feb 27, 2016 05:00
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I feel like Hep should charge some small about of piety when your ancestor dies, or maybe give a piety-costing ability to respawn him. That solves the problem of having nothing to spend piety on and the separate problem that there's really no consequence for your buddy dying every fight.
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Feb 27, 2016 05:05
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LordSloth posted:Third, don't do Zot all the way through unless you like Orbs of Fire and have spare Cure Mutation. You could do it, but why bother? One to four is going to be much less of a strain on your consumables. A few levels of Zigs are always quite manageable, but the moment they're not... splat. I haven't gotten quite that good at judging when to bail out but the signs are there, and you have wands of heal wounds, hasting, massive AOEs. Gonna say put Tomb at the very end of the list and note that I don't see any rCorr in that dump except for one randart leather way back on lair:2 so I'd also push Slime second to last.  He has rN+++ and shatter. Do tomb, it's easy with that setup. I mean, he should do vaults and crypt and maybe the first 4 levels of Zot first, but tomb is a really easy pick for first extended branch with that character.Also get regeneration. e: Slime is kinda not an extended branch but you should put it off, not because of rCorr but because trying to kill TRJ with shatter is a painful experience. Do it after you are full of experience from tomb etc and have firestorm. Darox fucked around with this message at 05:24 on Feb 27, 2016 |
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Feb 27, 2016 05:20
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Matlock Birthmark posted:I was thinking of them like Centaurs, which I don't think close range. Though it could be I'm almost always trying to just close range myself. (Centaurs have killed me a bunch) Centaurs close range eventually, they just spend much more time shooting. Find a centaur with a late-game character sometime and let them plink at you for a bit. (Or just test in wizmode.) Sojenus posted:Hepatituslanu comments... Thanks for testing! Agreed that the active abilities aren't that exciting right now - I've seen other people use piety more but it's still something that needs tweaking. Glad hexer worked well for you - that seems to be the one people are choosing least, for some reason! RPATDO_LAMD posted:I feel like Hep should charge some small about of piety when your ancestor dies, or maybe give a piety-costing ability to respawn him. This was how I initially implemented the god. When I started playtesting, though, I found it very unfun, since it encouraged you to avoid using your ancestor to minimize the risk of them dying & costing piety. You could also get trapped early-game spending all your piety to revive the ancestor when it died - this was less of a problem after reaching 2* and choosing a type, but it was easy to get trapped below that threshold. I don't consider the lack of consequence for your ally dying to be a problem that needs solving - it's very intentional that their death is a tactical concern, not a strategic one. For a god who strongly encourages you to worry about your allies' wellbeing, Beogh and Yred already exist!
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Feb 27, 2016 05:34
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PleasingFungus posted:Thanks for testing! Agreed that the active abilities aren't that exciting right now - I've seen other people use piety more but it's still something that needs tweaking. Glad hexer worked well for you - that seems to be the one people are choosing least, for some reason! Even without active abilities of note I still found it one of the more fun gods to play with and having a ghost buddy grow along with you is satisfying so I hope it gets developed on more! I was worried that the Hexer would fall off in the late game as things started resisting hexes but that was never really a problem (I didn't bother with extended but man gently caress extended), so maybe that's why people aren't trying it as much. I was kind of hoping it would get Discord eventually since that seemed like it would be funny but it's obvious enough why that's not a good thing to throw on something you can't directly control.
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Feb 27, 2016 06:05
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