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You can definitely install a NFPA 13D residential sprinkler system for $1500. The heads are $5-$10 a piece, and you don't need any control valves or switches at all. Just plumb it up with PEX, inline with with your standard plumbing.
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Feb 27, 2016 05:59
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Zhentar posted:You can definitely install a NFPA 13D residential sprinkler system for $1500. The heads are $5-$10 a piece, and you don't need any control valves or switches at all. Just plumb it up with PEX, inline with with your standard plumbing. Retrofitting is going to cost a bundle more though, no?
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Feb 27, 2016 08:20
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Zhentar posted:You can definitely install a NFPA 13D residential sprinkler system for $1500. The heads are $5-$10 a piece, and you don't need any control valves or switches at all. Just plumb it up with PEX, inline with with your standard plumbing. In most states is required to be installed by a certified person. Not sure what the requirements are to take the test.
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Feb 27, 2016 17:07
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Zhentar posted:you don't need any control valves or switches at all. Just plumb it up with PEX, inline with with your standard plumbing. Stop talking out of your rear end, Zhentar. You need at least one rated and certified valve at the beginning of the system. Otherwise you can't service it without shutting off domestic water. You also want/possibly are required to have a water flow switch in there tied into a panel or at least a water gong. You also need to have a rated pressure gauge so when the system is tested (which requires more valves and fittings) so the inspector can see the residual water pressure and confirm activation of the flow switch. And very likely a rated expansion tank. We aren't talking about installing this in a chicken coop . You don't just guess at placement, k factor, pipe size and waterflow. 13d has reduced requirements, but they aren't simply "have your plumber cobble some things together with pex and we'll call it good." Depending on jurisdiction and placement you're looking at a minimum of blazemaster for risers along with full waterflow calculations, line drawing, floor plan with placement and pressure certification from the water company and cut sheets for every component. Stamped by an engineer. And if you give a poo poo about what your house looks like you don't use $12 heads. Drop pendents with escutcheons are pretty standard. And let's not even get into areas of the country where you'd need an antifreeze mix or a dry valved zone when installing into an attic space. And what c0ldfuse said.
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Feb 27, 2016 18:07
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Yeah, I deal with sprinkler systems for a living. I don't install them but my work relates to them heavily. You can totally install a "sprinkler system" for 2 grand or so. The problem is, it will be a "sprinkler system", not an actual system that counts for anything legally/insurance wise. I've seen old old buildings that have these lovely sort of systems. Just run off their domestic lines, the same lines as their cold water to their sinks and toilets except goes to a pipe with a few sprinkler heads. No proper valves, no meter, no clean out. When I document these systems in a building our recommendation is usually always the same: disconnect it, it's not really doing you any good, might not even work after 40 years, and if no one in the building even knows how to turn it off let alone isolate the system it's far more of a flooding risk than a safety feature. People put these in 40+ years ago but the codes have all changed since then. If all you want are some pipes in your ceiling that spray water maybe if theres a fire, yeah you can do it for cheap. But not only will the FD and insurance not recognize it, they might even hate it and call it a useless water damage hazard and refuse to insure or approve your house. I haven't really dealt with a sprinkler system in a single family house, but usually a sprinkler system's water supply comes direct from the street, it's not shared with the domestic water. You need a back-flow device so your nasty sprinkler pipe water doesn't contaminate the city supply. You need some sort of flow switch/valve that tells the system water is flowing and allows you to isolate the system (these valves also report that they are turned off, to warn you that your system is not currently protecting you). Then from there are various "zone valves" that feed the different areas of the building, each of those should have a flow switch as well so the system knows which sprinklers are going off, and to isolate specific areas rather than having to turn off the whole system for upkeep/cleaning. And yeah, then there's dry systems. If your pipes have ANY risk of freezing it has to be a dry system. This means the pipes don't have water in them, they're full of pressurized air. To get this pressure you need a compressor to constantly be topping up the air pressure in the system. When a sprinkler head goes off there's of course a sudden drop of pressure, which then allows the system to flood with water and go off. The air pressure needs to be monitored, the compressor needs to be monitored and serviced. Everything needs different monthly, yearly, 5 year and 10 year inspections ranging from checking and testing the valves and switches to totally flushing and cleaning out the entire system. It's all a pretty big deal.
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Feb 27, 2016 18:32
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Motronic posted:Stop talking out of your rear end, Zhentar. Great post+red text combo here. Just to throw some context numbers out, I found the escutcheon for a Viking concealed head, and that's $25 by itself. Can't find a price for the head itself--I suppose that's proprietary information or something.
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Feb 27, 2016 18:33
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moist turtleneck posted:Is that toiled hooked up or did you want a giant two story outhouse? It was a spare, long gone now. I did run a 4" waste out there from the house (along with buried electric, gas , cable Cat5 & phone), but have yet had reason to hook it u/
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Feb 28, 2016 02:38
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Motronic posted:We aren't talking about installing this in a chicken coop . Y'know, now that we're on the subject, does anyone know about barn fire suppression systems? Just something to get the hayloft and wet in case of emergency.
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Feb 28, 2016 04:13
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Suspect Bucket posted:Y'know, now that we're on the subject, does anyone know about barn fire suppression systems? Just something to get the hayloft and wet in case of emergency.
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Feb 28, 2016 04:20
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Slugworth posted:In most jurisdictions, the standard is a hose and a well trained horse. How does the horse hold the hose?
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Feb 28, 2016 04:33
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:How does the horse hold the hose? He doesn't hold the hose, he does a rein dance. 
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Feb 28, 2016 04:47
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Suspect Bucket posted:Y'know, now that we're on the subject, does anyone know about barn fire suppression systems? Just something to get the hayloft and wet in case of emergency. Based on the fire load you're looking at a full on commercial system. I've been through a couple installs/inspections around my area, and it's always at high end barns for obvious cost-related reasons.
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Feb 28, 2016 05:31
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Suspect Bucket posted:Y'know, now that we're on the subject, does anyone know about barn fire suppression systems? Just something to get the hayloft and wet in case of emergency. Put a cistern on the roof and drop some of those melty automatic nozzles down, I'd say.
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Feb 28, 2016 05:56
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c0ldfuse posted:In most states is required to be installed by a certified person. Not sure what the requirements are to take the test. I was referring to the scenario in DocCynical's post; parts & labor for a certified installer, before any markup for business overhead and profit (so installed cost to the customer would be at least $3k-4k). Motronic posted:You need at least one rated and certified valve at the beginning of the system. Otherwise you can't service it without shutting off domestic water. You also want/possibly are required to have a water flow switch in there tied into a panel or at least a water gong. You also need to have a rated pressure gauge so when the system is tested (which requires more valves and fittings) so the inspector can see the residual water pressure and confirm activation of the flow switch. And very likely a rated expansion tank. I would not consider it unreasonable to require shutting off domestic water for service (and neither does 13D); it shouldn't be frequently required. Water flow switches are not required, pressure gauges are only required if you have a dry system or a pressure tank, and I don't think you need an expansion tank. 5.1.2.1 exempts pressure gauges, water flow switchs, and expansion tanks from listing. Motronic posted:We aren't talking about installing this in a chicken coop . You don't just guess at placement, k factor, pipe size and waterflow. 13d has reduced requirements, but they aren't simply "have your plumber cobble some things together with pex and we'll call it good." Depending on jurisdiction and placement you're looking at a minimum of blazemaster for risers along with full waterflow calculations, line drawing, floor plan with placement and pressure certification from the water company and cut sheets for every component. Stamped by an engineer. I wasn't trying to suggest a random plumber can throw poo poo it, but I will concede that the requirements here go much further than I realized. I didn't know there were any riser requirements, and the minimum coverage is much more thorough than I had understood (On a quick estimate, my house would be required to have at least three times more sprinklers than I had thought). Motronic posted:And if you give a poo poo about what your house looks like you don't use $12 heads. Drop pendents with escutcheons are pretty standard. I guess on a closer look the $12 drop pendents aren't lead free, so they can't be used in a mixed system like I was suggesting. But the lead free ones are still only $15-20. Motronic posted:And let's not even get into areas of the country where you'd need an antifreeze mix or a dry valved zone when installing into an attic space. I live in one of those areas. But you only need sprinklers in an attic space if you have mechanicals in there. And putting them in the attic is a bad idea in the first place, so don't, and problem solved.
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Feb 28, 2016 08:12
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Zhentar posted:But you only need sprinklers in an attic space if you have mechanicals in there. And putting them in the attic is a bad idea in the first place, so don't, and problem solved. FWIW, it's very common where I live (Dallas/Ft Worth metro in TX) to stick the furnace and water heater in the attic. I'm more surprised when I see them in a garage or closet; you'll only see that on homes built before ~1990, and after that, sometimes you'll see them in the garage in multi-floor homes. A friend's mid 1980s 2 story has one furnace in the second attic (walk-in from a closet on the 2nd floor), the other in a 1st floor closet.  My neighbors behind me (2 story, built in 1994) have their water heater in the garage, and both furnaces in the attic.Not only is my furnace in the attic, the drat thing is sideways and hanging from the rafters.
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Feb 28, 2016 09:04
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Hello construction thread. Now I'm scared of basements and glad they don't exist in my area. We're having a house built this year and I'm sperging out about doors and frames. Our floors are light wood and the door/frames can be white, black, or 4 shades of wood. Is there any common wisdom about how to choose?
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Feb 28, 2016 12:13
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peanut posted:Hello construction thread. Now I'm scared of basements and glad they don't exist in my area. Is this a color palette question? Or did you mean something about fire doors/residential light doors or heavy as gently caress awesome doors and how to armor your floor properly to support say ehhh.. maybe 400 pounds of some sort of material?
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Feb 28, 2016 13:17
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SneakyFrog posted:Is this a color palette question? 400 pounds of goon
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Feb 28, 2016 13:24
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Jusupov posted:400 pounds of goon Every door is a French door
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Feb 28, 2016 15:12
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I was just walking around a new build area around here and as is the standard around here no framed building. It's breezeblocks or the likes and render all the way. Also, huge concrete foundations and basements. It's all buildings on a hillside but you see solid concrete on stuff built on flatter ground. That's even with the code not requiring a bomb shelter in the basement anymore. UK of course the standard building material is brick. Outside piping as well which gives people from elsewhere seeing it conniptions. It's funny to compare and contrast different building traditions.
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Feb 28, 2016 15:30
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It's been about 10 years since I did fire sprinkler design and drafting but Motronic is right, there's no cheap residential systems. When designing residential systems we never ever used dry systems, either they were antifreeze or normal water. Occasionally we would use dry drops in certain ceiling conditions. Quoting head prices is pretty funny cause it's easily the cheapest part in the system and pex is not allowed either (AFAIK with my 2006 knowledge).
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Feb 28, 2016 17:00
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A friend has ongoing problems with flooding in his basement and he recently shared this. A 30 gallon trash installed as a sump basin:
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Feb 28, 2016 19:01
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some texas redneck posted:FWIW, it's very common where I live (Dallas/Ft Worth metro in TX) to stick the furnace and water heater in the attic. I'm more surprised when I see them in a garage or closet; you'll only see that on homes built before ~1990, and after that, sometimes you'll see them in the garage in multi-floor homes. A friend's mid 1980s 2 story has one furnace in the second attic (walk-in from a closet on the 2nd floor), the other in a 1st floor closet. Oh, I'm well aware that it's popular, particularly in places that don't have basements. But it's dumb. Sticking your air handler in the attic has on average a 20% efficiency penalty and a 25% sizing penalty. The water heater in the garage isn't bad in warm climates, though. BraveUlysses posted:It's been about 10 years since I did fire sprinkler design and drafting but Motronic is right, there's no cheap residential systems. When designing residential systems we never ever used dry systems, either they were antifreeze or normal water. Occasionally we would use dry drops in certain ceiling conditions. PEX and CPVC are allowed, with some restrictions. An NFPA study put the median cost of a residential sprinkler system at $5,000, or $1.22 per sprinklered square foot.
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Feb 28, 2016 19:27
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Zhentar posted:$1.22 per sprinkled square foot. This is how it should be.
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Feb 28, 2016 20:48
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Zhentar posted:Oh, I'm well aware that it's popular, particularly in places that don't have basements. But it's dumb. Sticking your air handler in the attic has on average a 20% efficiency penalty and a 25% sizing penalty.
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Feb 28, 2016 21:26
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I'd be curious to compare lives saved by sprinklers vs. property damaged by malfunctioning sprinklers on an actuarial table that places value on human lives.
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Feb 28, 2016 22:23
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I've never heard of a head malfunctioning. They pretty much all behave exactly as designed. Or do you want to count the sprinklers getting hosed with and inappropriate design in those numbers?
CopperHound fucked around with this message at 22:34 on Feb 28, 2016 |
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Feb 28, 2016 22:31
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its funny... you guys are talking bout sprinklers INSIDE your home, in some parts of Australia its a legal requirement if you want to build in a high bushfire risk area to have sprinklers on the OUTSIDE of your home. And those systems are no joke either- you need a minimum of a 5000G tank to supply it, with a petrol or diesel pump that doesnt rely on mains power to pressurize it, and any piping thats above ground has to be metal. If you dont meet the code requirements, you wont get building consent to even START building a house, and if you say your going to do it and then dont, the government can slap you with a $10K fine, force you by court order to either knock the house down because it doesnt meet the approved design or remediate it at your costs, and while all of this is going on, no insurance company will touch you. Hope it doesnt happen during the bushfire season!
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Feb 28, 2016 23:20
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And would it actually save your house from a brush fire?
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Feb 29, 2016 02:50
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Munin posted:I was just walking around a new build area around here and as is the standard around here no framed building. It's breezeblocks or the likes and render all the way. Also, huge concrete foundations and basements. It's all buildings on a hillside but you see solid concrete on stuff built on flatter ground. That's even with the code not requiring a bomb shelter in the basement anymore. I have some pictures from when my parents had a house built (in Kenya). I have considered posting them here to see how bad the reactions are, but I am not sure I want to know the truth.
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Feb 29, 2016 03:05
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smackfu posted:And would it actually save your house from a brush fire? Looking this up (and maybe I'm misunderstanding it), but I guess there are all sorts of requirements for brushfire protection based on assessed danger to the building, based on location and geography. A lot of it seems concerned with preventing airborne embers from finding ways of getting stuck in nooks and starting fires, as well as using radiant heat reflectors (i forget what they call the material) in all sorts of places. The sprinklers are required at the higher end of the danger scale, I think.
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Feb 29, 2016 03:26
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smackfu posted:And would it actually save your house from a brush fire? Depends on the severity. There is very little that will save a home from a wall of flame 20 meters high, but it could work against a smaller fire. I reckon more of it would come down to how the landscape around the home was designed. For example, not having trees that explode under high temps near your house and having fire retardant plants instead, decently sized fire breaks, that sort of thing.
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Feb 29, 2016 04:32
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A new level to the old saying about everything wanting to kill you in Australia. Even trees that explode in wildfires (hyperbole I hope  ).Surprised California doesn't do the same thing for its fire-prone areas too.
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Feb 29, 2016 04:43
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crazypeltast52 posted:A new level to the old saying about everything wanting to kill you in Australia. Even trees that explode in wildfires (hyperbole I hope Explosive trees are not specific to Australia, just to incredibly hot fires. The water in them flash-boils and the increased pressure rips the tree apart. Kind of like exploding a potato in the microwave.
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Feb 29, 2016 04:47
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Note to self: when landscaping my new home, avoid trees that loving EXPLODE.
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Feb 29, 2016 04:58
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Explosive trees are not specific to Australia, just to incredibly hot fires. The water in them flash-boils and the increased pressure rips the tree apart. Kind of like exploding a potato in the microwave. I assumed it was the tree just going up like a dried Christmas tree. That is something else entirely!
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Feb 29, 2016 05:01
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Explosive trees are not specific to Australia, just to incredibly hot fires. The water in them flash-boils and the increased pressure rips the tree apart. Kind of like exploding a potato in the microwave. Yes and no. Some of the native trees have really high oil content, so the same process happens, only its got oil added to the mix as well.
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Feb 29, 2016 05:07
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Explosive trees are not specific to Australia, just to incredibly hot fires. The water in them flash-boils and the increased pressure rips the tree apart. Kind of like exploding a potato in the microwave. Occasionally when walking through a pine forest in the southern US you will start to notice bits of wood sticking out of the ground, pointed in one direction. If you walk the in direction they came from you will find more and more of them and eventually the remains of a dead tree which looks like someone set off a stick of dynamite in it. Lightning isn't to be hosed with. Some of the pieces I have seen were 100lbs or more thrown 100 yds.
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Feb 29, 2016 05:08
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CopperHound posted:I've never heard of a head malfunctioning. They pretty much all behave exactly as designed. Or do you want to count the sprinklers getting hosed with and inappropriate design in those numbers? Putting clothes hangers through wall mounted sprinklers in hotel rooms is probably the #1 "malfunction".
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Feb 29, 2016 06:21
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Motronic posted:Putting clothes hangers through wall mounted sprinklers in hotel rooms is probably the #1 "malfunction". Oh my god I hate people so much.
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Feb 29, 2016 06:38
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