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Whodat Smith-Jones posted:I really hate to see stuff like this for a multitude of reasons that I don't feel like typing here, but one of the many things that I find confusing is the fake email. I guess we don't have context for it, but what the gently caress? Does someone have michaelgira@gmail.com, and did some random person email that account and ask about the rape allegations? Maybe there's a very obvious explanation that I fail to come up with on my own. Just very odd. It's a screenshot that was circulated on 4chan, sounds like a pretty easy thing to fake
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Feb 26, 2016 18:21
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Whodat Smith-Jones posted:I really hate to see stuff like this for a multitude of reasons that I don't feel like typing here, but one of the many things that I find confusing is the fake email. I guess we don't have context for it, but what the gently caress? Does someone have michaelgira@gmail.com, and did some random person email that account and ask about the rape allegations? Maybe there's a very obvious explanation that I fail to come up with on my own. Just very odd. It's 4chan.
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Feb 26, 2016 19:01
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Just going to respond with what I've already posted on the Swans FB:quote:It's important to remind ourselves that it's wrong to dismiss a claim out of hand "because she seems crazy" - so much rape goes unreported in this country for exactly that reason, the victim knows that no one will believe them. Bottom line being always take rape claims seriously. Investigate everything and dismiss nothing, but don't presume guilt on claims alone. Friends Are Evil posted:These allegations are genuinely heartbreaking, if true. Swans seriously changed my life and it feels like a betrayal to hear this. I have no idea one way or the other but perhaps a more detailed rebuttal is pending his lawyer's advice. Deified Data fucked around with this message at 19:59 on Feb 26, 2016 |
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Feb 26, 2016 19:27
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I'm properly torn up by this. Deified Data data summed up my thoughts on rape accusations in general extremely well with regard to taking them seriously but not making assumptions. But on the other hand, if you listen to Drainland, it becomes clear that Gira can turn into a nasty piece of work when he's been drinking. I really, really hope the proof his wife has (her statement was in extremely poor taste) pans out, and that Gira can convincingly clear his name. If he can't, gently caress. Like, even if suddenly this whole thing just stops and we're left exactly where we are now, the thought will forever linger in my mind that one of the greatest musicians, not only responsible for Swans but the plethora of bands that took after Swans (almost the entire post-rock genre), is a loving rapist. I actually feel ill.
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Feb 26, 2016 20:19
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I'm not sure what "proof" would exactly exonerate him but yeah, I'm interested to see what it is (and I'm hoping it's not just a bunch of texts/emails to say: she's crazy!!) I understand how tough this is because obviously as humans we should assume innocent until proven guilty, but these are special cases, since there's little that can be proven or disproven, and at the end of the day it's so rare for these allegations to be completely fabricated and I don't think there's a single example of someone furthering their career due to a rape allegation. In fact all this really does is make the next person who gets abused by a famous person that much more weary about coming out. The victims really do get raked over the coals...everything they have ever said about this person in the past can and will be used against them.
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Feb 26, 2016 20:26
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Texts/emails from Larkin that literally spell out her plan to destroy Gira's life would go a long way, but I feel like if those existed we'd have seen them by now. I don't think there's anything Larkin can say that will prove her claims, and I don't think there's anything Gira can say that will disprove them. So we're stuck in an ugly stalemate and Swans fans are faced with the unenviable proposition of deciding if they want to continue enjoying the music of someone who might be a rapist. And yeah, it's rough. The system is designed to give special scrutiny to rape victims when it should be the other way around (special scrutiny given to the subject of their claims). I think there's still room for presumed innocence even when we exercise that due diligence, though. Ultimately I believe rape allegations need to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, like any other serious crime. I realize the challenge this poses to victims but I can't imagine a way around it that doesn't drag the civil rights of the accused through the mud. Saying "this kind of accusation is rarely false" sets a bad legal precedent, and has led to hosed up poo poo like the Satanic sex abuse scare of the 80's/90's because why would a child lie about something like that? I'm in no way comparing the two substantially but I think I clumsily conveyed my point.
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Feb 26, 2016 20:40
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Deified Data posted:Texts/emails from Larkin that literally spell out her plan to destroy Gira's life would go a long way, but I feel like if those existed we'd have seen them by now. I don't think there's anything Larkin can say that will prove her claims, and I don't think there's anything Gira can say that will disprove them. So we're stuck in an ugly stalemate and Swans fans are faced with the unenviable proposition of deciding if they want to continue enjoying the music of someone who might be a rapist. Gira said that he plans on writing a more in-depth statement, and his wife said that they're currently talking to an attorney about the collection of evidence they have proving Gira's innocence. Whatever it is that they have, Jennifer sounded extremely confident about their case against Larkin. I guess we'll see in the coming days.
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Feb 26, 2016 20:57
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Since Jarboe has been brought up in the last day, I just wanted to share an interview with her from a few years ago. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NE6Z2mCe0wY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkEwH9EPsuA Not that anyone has the right to apply how he treated Jarboe to the accusations made by Larkin. I actually saw her perform with Helen Money in Italy and it was great. She sang her heart out, in front of a few dozen people (compared to seeing Swans in Bologna in front of 1,000). I genuinely feel so sorry for her, seeing how she was in the band for 15 years and wasn't even extended an invite like Norman was, much less the other, shorter-serving members. Perhaps it would too hard for MG to have his ex in the band again? She also provided vocals on The Seer when he asked for them, even though she had every right in the world to tell Gira to go gently caress himself. This behavior alone is making it hard for me to enjoy his music from here on out, rape or not. Soundtracks... is one of my desert island discs. Also, I generally skip the Jarboe-sung Swans tracks and went to that concert to see Helen Money. Her collaboration with Neurosis was rad as well, but again I really like Neurosis.
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Feb 26, 2016 21:20
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These allegations definitely put a new light on songs like "Time is Money (Bastard)" and "A Screw."
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Feb 26, 2016 21:39
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"Everyone who knows me knows I would never sexaully assault a woman." - El Duce, of the Mentors. God Of Paradise fucked around with this message at 22:45 on Feb 26, 2016 |
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Feb 26, 2016 22:31
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The characterization of Gira saying, "I'm going to make you a star, baby," doesn't seem to fit.
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Feb 26, 2016 22:46
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Really hoping this isn't true, for both their sakes.
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Feb 26, 2016 23:46
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Official statement from Gira: http://pitchfork.com/news/63799-swans-michael-gira-issues-statement-on-larkin-grimm-rape-accusations/Michael Gira posted:Eight years ago, while I was still married to my first wife, Larkin Grimm and I headed towards a consensual romantic moment that fortunately was not consummated. As she wrote in her recent social media postings about that night, I said to her, "this doesn't feel right," and abruptly but completely our only intimate encounter ended. It was an awkward mistake.
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Feb 27, 2016 02:39
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HorseRenoir posted:Official statement from Gira: http://pitchfork.com/news/63799-swans-michael-gira-issues-statement-on-larkin-grimm-rape-accusations/ So it's basically He Said She Said. Gira says it's consensual, Grimm says it wasn't. Given this statement and lack of "evidence", Gira's wife's post was in extremely poor taste.
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Feb 27, 2016 02:55
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Blast Fantasto posted:So it's basically He Said She Said. Gira says it's consensual, Grimm says it wasn't. I'm assuming that the evidence is with their attorney and wisely being kept private. Publicly releasing Grimm's emails and private correspondence is a really bad idea and would probably make things worse, regardless of what they prove. From what I can tell, Gira's claim is that the specific event itself happened, but that circumstances surrounding it and the events that happened after were false. If Gira is telling the truth and he immediately ended things when he realized the situation was no longer consensual, apologized, and left it at that, then I can forgive that.
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Feb 27, 2016 03:21
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Here is Grimm's response to Gira's statement:Larkin Grimm posted:This is a perfect example of why we need to have education about consent. In a gentlemanly move he admits the act happened but cannot conceive of himself as a rapist. Thank you Michael Gira for your honesty. This is your truth as you remember it. Unfortunately, this was still rape. I said no to you many times before that day, begged you not to interfere with me sexually, even made it a part of a verbal agreement we had when I signed a contract with you. I asked you to promise that you would never have sex with me. You assured me that I could trust you. That is about as clear a NO as I could ever cry. I asked for this because I had had other experiences in my music career and I KNEW.
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Feb 27, 2016 16:00
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"This was your truth as you remember it"? "I asked you to promise that you'd never have sex with me"? "In the end, this is about business"? Her response is just as weird as the Giras'
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Feb 27, 2016 18:09
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Yeah specifically requesting of someone that they never have sex with you is a pretty strange way to think of these things. As far as the actual incident of assault goes, it sounds like they're both telling legitimate versions of the truth, and that it was more a weird drunken at least partially mutual mistake or miscommunication, more than something calculated or actively malicious. The accusations that Grimm has made about the ongoing relationship being predatory and exploitative are more upsetting to me at this point, but as some have mentioned the specifics sound pretty out of character for Gira. I'm sure again that there's truth to both sides, but I have a hard time swallowing Gira as a cartoonish music industry villain telling Grimm "Stick with me kid and I'll make you a star" as he lowers his thousand dollar sunglasses and slinks his arm around her. It sounds like they had a complex relationship. The bit about Grimm getting cut from the label shortly after this sounds damning, but I also keep hearing that the majority of the Young God roster was cut around the same time. I wasn't paying attention at the time. Anyone know the full story on that?
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Feb 27, 2016 20:46
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Decades posted:Yeah specifically requesting of someone that they never have sex with you is a pretty strange way to think of these things. As far as the actual incident of assault goes, it sounds like they're both telling legitimate versions of the truth, and that it was more a weird drunken at least partially mutual mistake or miscommunication, more than something calculated or actively malicious. IIRC Gira said that running the label was too expensive and that he had to downsize Young God Records into being an outlet for Gira's personal releases. This makes sense, considering each new Swans album has involved a fundraiser just to get made. I'm still skeptical about the claims that Gira continued to make sexual advances towards Grimm after the event. Partly because some of the details sound super out of character for Gira ("Trust me, I'm gonna make you a star"?) and partly because Gira claims to have proof that the exact opposite happened. It's a really tricky and ambiguous situation but the sexual encounter itself doesn't seem like something I would consider intentional sexual abuse.
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Feb 27, 2016 21:04
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Ok all the talk of this seeming "out of character" for Gira needs to stop unless you have spent a considerable amount of time with him, yeah?
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Feb 27, 2016 21:23
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I just can't imagine Jerry would've hosed those kids, he was so dedicated to helping them
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Feb 27, 2016 21:38
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Wraith of J.O.I. posted:Ok all the talk of this seeming "out of character" for Gira needs to stop unless you have spent a considerable amount of time with him, yeah? I see your point, though I did say "sounds" rather than "was", it's maybe more of a question of language than character. The quote Grimm uses even with no context sounds more like something from a biased account than something a person would literally say to another person without irony. I'm sure Gira's account has a degree of bias too, it's how these things go. I believe Grimm and mostly agree with her ideas and admire her apparent intentions. It sounds like Gira, regardless of how exactly it was initiated, had sex with someone who he should've known wouldn't have had sex with him sober. It's obvious that that was wrong, because both accounts agree that Gira acknowledged as much and stopped. We could argue about definitions of assault and consent - I'd be reluctant to call him a rapist over this. The important practical question we should each ask ourselves is in situations like this is whether it's right to continue supporting the artist. Bowie arranged coke fueled threesomes with intoxicated minors and I still bought Blackstar. Whatever Gira did falls well short of the Bowie line, so this is basically a wash for me in that sense. We could still talk about whether or not he's a lovely person. Safe to say he's flawed. If this is the worst thing he's ever done then he's lived a better life than I'd have guessed.
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Feb 27, 2016 23:01
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Listening to the Seer currently. It's still good. To me it seems like they're both speaking the truth, Rashomon style. This does make Gira look more pathetic in my eyes than before, but it's not like we didn't already know he is/was kind of batshit.
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Feb 28, 2016 00:01
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What do any of us really know about Michael Gira's "character" beyond "writes scary, noisy music" and "sometimes wears cowboy hats"?
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Feb 28, 2016 01:09
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has small dilz
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Feb 28, 2016 01:14
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Wraith of J.O.I. posted:Ok all the talk of this seeming "out of character" for Gira needs to stop unless you have spent a considerable amount of time with him, yeah? Yeah, the guy that wrote this would offer to make people stars: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIRnPUhSdA8
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Feb 28, 2016 01:27
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Blast Fantasto posted:What do any of us really know about Michael Gira's "character" beyond "writes scary, noisy music" and "sometimes wears cowboy hats"? I dunno, considering the split with Jarboe was pretty acrimonious and public, I'd imagine she would have had similar lovely stories to tell of him.
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Feb 28, 2016 02:44
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I am not personally invested in these people, I haven't listened to any of their music and I doubt I will. That said she comes off as a huge drama queen type personality which immediately makes me doubt all of this. She also seems to be connecting this incident to being dropped from the record label which seems to be blatantly false as far as I can tell so that just damages her credibility further, especially with that cheesy rear end 'make you a star' poo poo like real life is a badly written movie. It feels like a publicity ploy, and it worked because I would never have known who the gently caress she is if it weren't for this. Also I am sure I will get some poo poo for saying this but if he actually did do it as described it's basically a 1/10 on the rape scale. They kidnap little girls in India and lock them in a room for 20 years then throw them out on the street to die once they're all used up and I don't see anyone really giving a poo poo about that but oh you're an artist you're so important this is such an issue you're fighting for women everywhere blah blah blah shut the gently caress up. I know just because worse things happen elsewhere it doesn't invalidate lesser evils but on a scale that includes "to death, for years" this is about as tame as it gets and if she is actually claiming it ruined her life or anything near that she needs some loving perspective. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 28, 2016 10:10
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Mr. Unlucky posted:I am not personally invested in these people, I haven't listened to any of their music and I doubt I will. You're a poo poo man
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Feb 28, 2016 11:09
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Mr. Unlucky posted:I am not personally invested in these people, I haven't listened to any of their music and I doubt I will. Good lord.
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Feb 28, 2016 14:39
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I rate that post an 8.0 on the rape scale.
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Feb 28, 2016 14:50
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Stop quoting that piece of poo poo
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Feb 28, 2016 14:56
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Not speculating on the veracity of someone's account of a rape, and not trying to figure out what Really happened based on your impression of a performer's public persona, are both really good, and nice, things to do, and I'm super into doing them, currently, and generally.
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Feb 28, 2016 15:39
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"This rape isn't as bad as other rapes in my mind." gently caress you Mr. Unlucky.
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Feb 28, 2016 15:47
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Cool Buff Man posted:You're a poo poo man
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Feb 28, 2016 15:53
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If this turns out to be true I'm gonna toss all my SWANS stuff except my Public Castration is a Good Idea t-shirt because that will become deliciously ironic.
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Feb 28, 2016 16:30
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Think we'll just have to resign ourselves to never knowing.
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Feb 28, 2016 17:11
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Nanomashoes posted:If this turns out to be true I'm gonna toss all my SWANS stuff except my Public Castration is a Good Idea t-shirt because that will become deliciously ironic.
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Feb 28, 2016 20:58
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Mr. Unlucky posted:I am not personally invested in these people, I haven't listened to any of their music and I doubt I will. Mr. unlucky talking about the rape scale even though he is pretty sure he will get poo poo for saying anything about a rape scale
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Feb 28, 2016 21:31
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Bolocko posted:If you owned a Caravaggio painting would you get rid of it because he murdered someone (while attempting to castrate him)? I'm throwing away all my Caravaggios as we speak.
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