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Grapplejack posted:The RPG is acceptably balanced. You are wrong.
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Feb 28, 2016 07:34
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Grapplejack posted:The RPG is acceptably balanced. You are wrong.
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Feb 28, 2016 07:58
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Vox has been wrong about the RPG pretty much forever and I find "read the previous posts" pretty laughable considering he's never read any of the multitude of posts disagreeing so Grapplejack posted:The RPG is acceptably balanced. You are wrong.
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Feb 28, 2016 08:00
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Psion posted:Vox has been wrong about the RPG pretty much forever and I find "read the previous posts" pretty laughable considering he's never read any of the multitude of posts disagreeing What have I missed? I've done my best to respond to all arguments on the subject that are more than "nuh-uh".
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Feb 28, 2016 08:07
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Discendo Vox posted:What have I missed? I've done my best to respond to all arguments on the subject that are more than "nuh-uh". Even if you took out every single explosive weapon in the game, Dozers are still laughably easy to wreck. Mag dump practically any weapon of your choice with a reasonable fire rate into the face plate and you're done. From that perspective, taking an RPG for Dozer-loving is almost inefficient, since something like a Clarion is basically just as effective, and doesn't kneecap you for ammo pickups and overall utility. Winters also drops reasonably swiftly to Molotovs/flamethrower. And if you want to nerf them too, then consider this: Winters is nothing more than a health hack. And if I recall correctly, that's one of the reasons you don't like DW. So... John Murdoch posted:I was just thinking about the viability of a silly hyper-fast armor regen build (squeezing in Aced Bulletproof) and Ex-President the other day, but Bullseye automatically triggering the heal means I'm going to totally switch to this kind of build next time I play. Pretty sure I have a Fugitive build lying around that I can switch perk decks on and bingo. Yeah. It's fun. It's just a shame Technician is such a goddamn wasteland for points.
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Feb 28, 2016 08:27
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LuciferMorningstar posted:Even if you took out every single explosive weapon in the game, Dozers are still laughably easy to wreck. Mag dump practically any weapon of your choice with a reasonable fire rate into the face plate and you're done. From that perspective, taking an RPG for Dozer-loving is almost inefficient, since something like a Clarion is basically just as effective, and doesn't kneecap you for ammo pickups and overall utility. As previously mentioned, other weapons require aiming and some degree of proximity. With the current spread of damage, having one weapon slot for conventional weapons isn't really a problem- the M308 and a large number of other primary weapons can operate on their own indefinitely. The low ammunition on the weapon is itself a nonissue if any one player brings ammo bags. You have to get close to use fire on Winters, fire weapons have other significant drawbacks, and molotovs are in limited supply. The problem of enemy health on DW is somewhat less of an issue these days to to the powercreep of current player weapons- at this point the largest problems are some fundamental map tweaks (like the bridge on Watchdogs day 1) and DW enemy damage and accuracy adjustments. The utility of Winters is less directly in his HP increase effect and more in that 1) the assault becomes endless and 2) players fighting him ordinarily have to move to a less defensible position to take him down. Being able to fire-and-forget an RPG from across the map defeats all of those purposes. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 08:58 on Feb 28, 2016 |
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Feb 28, 2016 08:37
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The quintessential Vox experience. Him trying to explain how brilliant and true fun his ideas are to an audience that already told him no every single time he brought it up before.
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Feb 28, 2016 08:55
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Discendo Vox posted:As previously mentioned, other weapons require aiming and some degree of proximity. It's almost like that's the trade-off... And they're still 100% as effective as an RPG, unless you're bad at aiming. In which case, I guess you need all the help you can get. E: Is HE also OP for its stun capabilities? Because then you don't even need to be good at aiming.
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Feb 28, 2016 08:58
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Also to properly facefuck a dozer, by design you kind of have to be in a situation where he's actually facing you, and therefore probably shooting back. Tbh, that kind of dumb "shoot wherever and they just die due to ridiculous damage numbers" thing is why I've always been annoyed by the Thanatos, even if it's otherwise more or less balanced. For the RPG, I like the idea of direct spike damage being largely unaffected but giving stuff splash resistance. John Murdoch fucked around with this message at 09:07 on Feb 28, 2016 |
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Feb 28, 2016 09:00
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It's just the limitations of the Disel Engine that are holding back the ability to have damage points outside of being hit, die just the same outside of getting them in the head. When Payday 3 actually happens, they could at least introduce crotch shot reactions with a new engine. Until then just enjoy the ability to make them puke, burn and maybe even get electric shocks using the existing game engine.
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Feb 28, 2016 09:09
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John Murdoch posted:Also to properly facefuck a dozer, by design you kind of have to be in a situation where he's actually facing you, and therefore probably shooting back. And this isn't even necessarily true. People with crits can wreck Dozers without taking off the faceplate. Guess we better nerf that, too.
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Feb 28, 2016 09:48
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The RPG's not balanced. I have enough fun with it to not give a poo poo either way, though.
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Feb 28, 2016 10:06
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Grapplejack posted:The RPG is acceptably balanced. You are wrong.
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Feb 28, 2016 10:17
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LuciferMorningstar posted:It's almost like that's the trade-off... And they're still 100% as effective as an RPG, unless you're bad at aiming. In which case, I guess you need all the help you can get. As I already said, the disadvantages of the RPG aren't material due to the abundance of ammo and the immateriality of "giving up" a weapon slot. The proposed change would be to add explosive damage resistance to the enumerated enemies. This would effect all explosive damage, not just the RPG(effecting just the RPG would actually be much harder to implement). The HE stun isn't OP, it's actually pretty limited, honestly. Fire damage freezing dozers and cloakers in place is a bigger issue. I don't think it's inappropriate for cloakers, but it gets a bit absurd when a bulldozer and a flamethrower meet. LuciferMorningstar posted:And this isn't even necessarily true. People with crits can wreck Dozers without taking off the faceplate. Guess we better nerf that, too. This requires aim, chance, and often some degree of proximity. Plan Z posted:The RPG's not balanced. I have enough fun with it to not give a poo poo either way, though. This is a much better argument. 
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Feb 28, 2016 10:39
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Grapplejack posted:The RPG is acceptably balanced. You are wrong. Using explosive to wreak Winters takes some skill as it is most effective if delivered to the top of their heads, not whatever side you are facing. Three shells from the nade launcher in enough to knock out Winters if you arc it, yeah, lets nerf that too because oh no killing things too fast. Outside of Death Wish or Winters using RPGs on Dozers is really inefficient to the point I don't bring it on anything less than Death Wish. loving lol, a weapon needs ammo bags, lets nerf it. Also loving LOL, something requires AIMMING so it's balanced, poo poo I have been playing this wrong the entire time. I am finding the M16 DMR quite a bit better than the M308. Sure it doesn't have perfect accuracy, but it's accurate enough in addition to it's large magazine, makes mince meat of everything with out the hassle of reloading and the extra bullets make taking out DW dozers safer as you aren't worrying about running out. Anything short of Goat snipers you are going to hit it first shot.
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Feb 28, 2016 10:43
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Discendo Vox posted:This requires aim, chance, and often some degree of proximity.  Though frankly I haven't seen a single person running around with some goofy crit build in forever, and I'm honestly struggling to even remember seeing anyone using HE rounds lately. It's almost as if a much simpler loadout option came along that accomplishes the same thing much more easily. 
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Feb 28, 2016 10:50
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oh yeah by the way, why the gently caress was this not posted here
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Feb 28, 2016 10:53
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Discendo Vox posted:This requires aim, chance, and often some degree of proximity. And we get to the crux of the matter: your arbitrary boundaries. If we want to get really technical, firing an RPG requires "some degree" of aim, chance, and proximity. You have to aim close enough to the Dozer/Winters. You have to have your rocket not get shot down. And you have to be close enough to see them. It's a question of where you want to draw the line. And there's no obvious boundary that everyone will agree on. Opinions vary.
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Feb 28, 2016 11:40
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John Murdoch posted:I was under the impression they patched out the really blatant HE crit stuff? So what weapons are still capable of doing that? HE crits were severely toned down sometime last summer when they patched it so bulldozer armor wasn't taking multiple hits from a single explosion. Before that, you could crit once with an explosive Plainsrider and kill a bulldozer immediately on DW. For what it's worth I still see lots of people explosive bows of some sort when they want to run pistols, especially in a dodge build. HE rounds are less common, I assume due to the huge accuracy nerf they received. The China Lake/RPG are pretty common secondaries that have taken their place - I know I certainly run them a lot especially when stoving. oohhboy posted:Using explosive to wreak Winters takes some skill as it is most effective if delivered to the top of their heads, not whatever side you are facing. Three shells from the nade launcher in enough to knock out Winters if you arc it, yeah, lets nerf that too because oh no killing things too fast. Depending on the map and when Winters appears during a heist, it can be more or less effective to use a grenade launcher versus the RPG on him as well. People also forget - or maybe they don't know - that the Thanatos is also really good at dealing with Winters and you don't have to deal with your shots being destroyed mid-air. The headshot multiplier applies after the damage cap, and it takes 4 headshots on him to make him retreat on DW.
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Feb 28, 2016 12:40
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UnknownMercenary posted:Depending on the map and when Winters appears during a heist, it can be more or less effective to use a grenade launcher versus the RPG on him as well. People also forget - or maybe they don't know - that the Thanatos is also really good at dealing with Winters and you don't have to deal with your shots being destroyed mid-air. The headshot multiplier applies after the damage cap, and it takes 4 headshots on him to make him retreat on DW. On Overkill you can run up and jump fire to get the explosive head shots. Doing that on DW would likely get get you killed though, but ammo bags, so launch away. You have to somehow blast though his shield bunker to use the Thanatos on him and if you find an elevated position on him both work a treat. Either way you have to AIM at poo poo.
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Feb 28, 2016 14:43
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LuciferMorningstar posted:And we get to the crux of the matter: your arbitrary boundaries. If we want to get really technical, firing an RPG requires "some degree" of aim, chance, and proximity. You have to aim close enough to the Dozer/Winters. You have to have your rocket not get shot down. And you have to be close enough to see them. It's a question of where you want to draw the line. And there's no obvious boundary that everyone will agree on. Opinions vary. I hate this stupid slapfight when it comes up as much as anyone, but don't pretend there's little difference between having to shoot out the mask, and having to aim near him for a one-shot that can kill other dozers right next to him. It's not the reason why Overkill is the default difficulty, but it certainly mitigates more difficulty than any other weapon. The gun's not balanced. It is, however, fun, and this late into the game's life, I don't want it nerfed.
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Feb 28, 2016 16:46
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Kikas posted:Well poo poo's it's Muffet. Manuel Calavera posted:I need to know the specifics. Couldn't find that pattern. Tulip posted:This is the important stuff c'mon man. Flamer Rainbow Black/Magenta Edit: Piano Black looks better, instead of Rainbow. The Electronaut fucked around with this message at 17:19 on Feb 28, 2016 |
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Feb 28, 2016 17:14
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Much obliged. 
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Feb 28, 2016 18:47
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Plan Z posted:I hate this stupid slapfight when it comes up as much as anyone, but don't pretend there's little difference between having to shoot out the mask, and having to aim near him for a one-shot that can kill other dozers right next to him. It's not the reason why Overkill is the default difficulty, but it certainly mitigates more difficulty than any other weapon. The gun's not balanced. It is, however, fun, and this late into the game's life, I don't want it nerfed. Errr, no. There is no need to shoot out the mask to kill a bulldozer with crits. Just last night I was in a game with LuciferMorningstar and we were commenting on the fact that dead dozers still had their faceplates. In a Big Bank, I was rolling up on a dozer in the teller corridor. I switched to my micro uzi and before I had fully switched weapons the dozer just keeled over. It took me a second to figure out that ClonedPickle, standing on the balcony in front of the locked double doors, had landed a crit or two with his akimbo deagles and killed the dozer from a pretty good distance with an obstructed sightline. By the end of the heist there were quite a few dozer corpses with intact, or just cracked, faceplates. If the RPG is unbalanced then so are crits.
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Feb 28, 2016 20:23
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THE CHORSE posted:akimbo deagles LEO. Maybe 10 shots or so before it fell over, and it's suppressed without GS Aced or suppressor skills so it's like, low-60s damage. It is hilariously easy to kill Dozers with akimbo Deagles though, that is very true. He's not looking at me? Crit buttshots, still dead very quickly. Honestly the only thing that's been made clear from this slapfight is that Vox isn't getting team-rocketed enough. Please shoot more rockets at Vox, thanks in advance. ClonedPickle fucked around with this message at 20:42 on Feb 28, 2016 |
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Feb 28, 2016 20:35
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If crits are this much of a balance problem I'm a lot less sure about how to address them, given that they're part of the skill system. edit: looking at how Low Blow is implemented, it seems pretty easy to disable its effect on Bulldozers, but leave it viable for removing their armor. Alternately, I can look into adjusting damage calculations for Bulldozers generally, which are a real mess as implemented. I need to look into how adjusting that would also effect explosive damage- right now explosive damage is actually multiplied by each piece of Bulldozer armor, which is nuts. edit 2: hahah, I see. If the long guide is accurate, it looks like the effect of crits on Bulldozers is a bug- instead of consistently doubling your damage, which was probably the intention, a bodyshot multiplies your damage by 11.5 . Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 21:17 on Feb 28, 2016 |
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Feb 28, 2016 20:52
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THE CHORSE posted:Errr, no. There is no need to shoot out the mask to kill a bulldozer with crits. Just last night I was in a game with LuciferMorningstar and we were commenting on the fact that dead dozers still had their faceplates. In a Big Bank, I was rolling up on a dozer in the teller corridor. I switched to my micro uzi and before I had fully switched weapons the dozer just keeled over. It took me a second to figure out that ClonedPickle, standing on the balcony in front of the locked double doors, had landed a crit or two with his akimbo deagles and killed the dozer from a pretty good distance with an obstructed sightline. By the end of the heist there were quite a few dozer corpses with intact, or just cracked, faceplates. If the RPG is unbalanced then so are crits. I wasn't talking about crits, since I mentioned the mask. I'm talking basic weapons, with no Low Blow added. I'm fine with crits, as they're are an investment, since they require quite a few points to get to, a concealment rating, are limited with armor, and require direct hits against an enemy . It's much different to take an RPG, equip it, fire, and getting 1-2 dozers, or single-shotting Winters. Especially since it's a DLC weapon. I more agree with Lucifer than anything that it boils down to how you view it.
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Feb 28, 2016 22:32
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Plan Z posted:I wasn't talking about crits Everybody else was. It's kind of hard to have any kind of discussion when one person doesn't accept the context.
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Feb 28, 2016 22:51
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Discendo Vox posted:If crits are this much of a balance problem I'm a lot less sure about how to address them, given that they're part of the skill system. They're not. I mean, for everyone except you, apparently. quote:edit 2: hahah, I see. If the long guide is accurate, it looks like the effect of crits on Bulldozers is a bug- instead of consistently doubling your damage, which was probably the intention, a bodyshot multiplies your damage by 11.5 . Not a bug. This is how crits work for every enemy, as far as I know. Getting a crit applies an additional headshot multiplier to your damage. Dozers have a huge headshot multiplier. You just don't like the product that the system produces because it doesn't fit whatever arbitrary balance you think is objectively correct. More broadly, though, for someone who apparently spends a bunch of time thinking about balance in PD2, you seem to consistently take myopic perspectives on balance, rather than considering the whole system. Plan Z posted:I more agree with Lucifer than anything that it boils down to how you view it. Thanks. This is really the only point I care about making. I'm not unsympathetic to the notion that the game could use some rebalancing, but there are a lot of culprits that could be looked at. And not just the "OP" stuff. There's a bunch of stuff that could use improvement. Just nerfing stuff tends to produce unfun outcomes (see: KF2). And it's total nonsense to assume that one particular conception of balance is objectively correct or necessarily more fun than another. As much as I dislike utilitarian reasoning, my guess is that the best way forward (if one exists) is the way that produces the most fun for everyone.
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Feb 28, 2016 22:59
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If they nerf the RPG I'll miss my pub carrying Rambo loadout of combining it with the Buzzsaw. 
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Feb 28, 2016 23:11
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If anything in this game needs a nerf, it's muscle. Played deathwish with the beta gambler the other day and it felt like taking the training wheels off for the first time, despite the fact that for a long time I didn't touch muscle at all. I was a steadfast disciple of infiltrator for ICTV builds.
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Feb 28, 2016 23:11
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They could do with cutting the HP regen further (halving it would be fine, or making it so it only regenerates a certain % and not all of it) and changing the panic back so that it has varying chances of success for each weapon type instead of a flat 20% for all weapons.
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Feb 28, 2016 23:15
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UnknownMercenary posted:They could do with cutting the HP regen further (halving it would be fine, or making it so it only regenerates a certain % and not all of it) and changing the panic back so that it has varying chances of success for each weapon type instead of a flat 20% for all weapons. I agree fully, though balancing health gain is going to be a real mess. The introduction of dodge skills and unbounded health gain together have made it really difficult to balance player challenge. Both systems make general outcomes of combat bimodal before player skill comes in. Crits are another example of that, but they're really only a problem with Bulldozers because the multiplier is so high. LuciferMorningstar posted:Not a bug. This is how crits work for every enemy, as far as I know. Getting a crit applies an additional headshot multiplier to your damage. Dozers have a huge headshot multiplier. You just don't like the product that the system produces because it doesn't fit whatever arbitrary balance you think is objectively correct. Unlike most other enemies, the Bulldozer has a separate, flattened crit multiplier that isn't derived from the headshot multiplier. This is necessary because the interaction of armor and health for bulldozers means the normal headshot multiplier is used to incentivize taking off the faceplate- it's much higher, 17-22 with a bunch of trailing decimals (I think it's derived). The crit multiplier on bulldozers is at 11 due to a value error. It's hard to tell exactly what they were going for, but it looks like they flipped an operator and the plan was for the multiplier to be 2. I think anything in range of other multipliers, which go as high as 6 on gensec guards, would make sense. For comparison, Winters et al have a headshot and crit multiplier of 5 (3.75 on DW) and turrets have a crit multiplier of 4. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 23:57 on Feb 28, 2016 |
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Feb 28, 2016 23:51
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LuciferMorningstar posted:They're not. I mean, for everyone except you, apparently. This. Almost everything you propose Vox is anti-fun including the fan fiction. I value how much fun I am getting way over whatever your idea of "balance" is. If I cared about balance more than anything else in a game I would ply CS:GO or DOTA 2.
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Feb 29, 2016 03:01
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People have an absurd hate-boner when it comes to balance in PvE games which is really stupid but the RPG is not The One Thing that trivializes PAYDAY 2 and any suggestions on how to "improve" it have been garbage. The fact of the matter is that --aside from black dozers on Deathwish and Skulldozers to a lesser extent-- dozers are a non-threatening non-issue and that has been the case for way longer than the RPG has been in the game. Shields and Tazers are way more threatening than dozers are. The RPG has a few uses but most of them are as a panic button or "dude, check this out" moments and since the secondary slot hosts most of the best weapons in the game now the choice of bringing one has become way more of a trade off than you give it credit for. tl;dr Grapplejack posted:The RPG is acceptably balanced. You are wrong.
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Feb 29, 2016 05:06
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I killed more than a thousand cops during Euro Bag Simulator and I still couldn't get 10 kills in 10 seconds with the piglet by the end of it. Explosives are hardly reliable when you're not the host. Maybe the death vox fever dream will get more traction in PvE cop shooter payday 3 when and if the engine + netcode is less squiffy.
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Feb 29, 2016 06:46
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The sad thing is the only reason why we don't even see four or another three day heist is that there is no fixing this game's netcode completely. The more days you add, the more likelyhood that the greatest challenge to getting the deathwish achievement is get lucky and never crash.
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Feb 29, 2016 07:06
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watho posted:People have an absurd hate-boner when it comes to balance in PvE games which is really stupid but the RPG is not The One Thing that trivializes PAYDAY 2 and any suggestions on how to "improve" it have been garbage. If you're going to talk about something trivializing threats, it's better to look at the plethora of health regen than the RPG. The ability of 3/4 members of the team (whoever's not running Armorer/Rogue, basically) to recover health has had a far greater impact than any particular gun. (Also, I've mostly stopped bringing the RPG in favor of the China Lake, it's just a FAR better weapon unless you absolutely have to delete Winters/multiple dozers at long range.)
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Feb 29, 2016 14:41
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China Lake is pretty much as good as the RPG when it comes to taking out Winters but it's also really amazing at taking out everything below a dozer.
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Feb 29, 2016 14:54
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Tempest_56 posted:If you're going to talk about something trivializing threats, it's better to look at the plethora of health regen than the RPG. The ability of 3/4 members of the team (whoever's not running Armorer/Rogue, basically) to recover health has had a far greater impact than any particular gun. (Also, I've mostly stopped bringing the RPG in favor of the China Lake, it's just a FAR better weapon unless you absolutely have to delete Winters/multiple dozers at long range.) It's hard to ignore the sudden power bump given to a whole slew of weapons in the rebalance. And not just in terms of raw damage, but ammo efficiency as well. You know something's weird when you can stay as ammo independent on DW as you can on OVK. It's certainly a far cry from the old days when every ammo bag was a big drat deal. Not to say that Muscle wasn't definitely over-buffed, but its regen (any regen, really) is that much more potent when you can wipe entire DW squads with the greatest of ease using nothing more than the M308 or Deagle or whatever and rarely be pressured inbetween health ticks. John Murdoch fucked around with this message at 15:07 on Feb 29, 2016 |
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Feb 29, 2016 15:02
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