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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:What's wrong with sweatpants and reversed baseball caps? The terrifying notion that there might be vampires that dress blue-collar.
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Feb 29, 2016 18:26
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Alien Rope Burn posted:The terrifying notion that there might be vampires that dress blue-collar. The Masquerade be damned!
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Feb 29, 2016 18:30
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Pope Guilty posted:The Masquerade be damned! No guys don't you see. If there really was a masquerade they'd make sure that goth clothing was hip and with it. quote:I always took for granted, after reading the vtm rulebook that the following is true; Dude is bizarrely invested in how vampires dress.
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Feb 29, 2016 19:07
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It's never gonna be the 90's again and whether we like or dislike that fact what matters is that it's true.
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Feb 29, 2016 19:09
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American goths are weird anyway. Just wear eyeshadow, an Offspring hoodie, listen to Nine Inch Nails and bring a knife to school like everyone else, jeez.
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Feb 29, 2016 19:12
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Full of mundane details and framed as a true narrative: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxlJxDr26mM
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Feb 29, 2016 19:17
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I know it gets said every time, but "My magical blood sucking immortal humanoids must be VERSIMILITUDINOUS DAMMIT" is always gold.
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Feb 29, 2016 19:18
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It takes a pretty specific and bizarre set of assumptions for "people widely dress like 90s club goths in the modern day" to follow logically from "vampires control society".
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Feb 29, 2016 19:29
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unseenlibrarian posted:I'm still just boggling at: Dracula is an epistolary novel.
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Feb 29, 2016 19:29
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Kurieg posted:No guys don't you see. If there really was a masquerade they'd make sure that goth clothing was hip and with it. A centuries-old elder whose tastes were forged in the court of King Henry II dons his leathers and eyeshadow and sits down for a nice, relaxing evening of listening to The Cure. 'This is good,' he thinks, 'this is what I like.'
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Feb 29, 2016 19:30
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Yeah Nosferatu is more impressionist than Gothic fiction, all of the examples he list rely a lot on referencing real places and events, and in Dracula's case the epistolary format, to give a sense of place and verisimilitude, which incidentally is a big hook of the World of Darkness as a setting as well. That being said, he might be overstating the point, but in general what he's describing is why I liked the new World of Darkness over the old one's Gothic-Punk vibe, which is all the more ironic.
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Feb 29, 2016 19:32
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Yeah, but he also referenced Varney, which, for example, was supposedly set in the 1700s but continually referenced contemporary-to-the time-it-was-written-events instead, literally ripped off the plot of Frankenstein at one point for several chapters in a row because 'hey, this galvanic science stuff is popular', gave multiple origin stories and changed up the motives for the title character repeatedly... It may have referenced real places, but only because it couldn't decide where any of the stuff going on was happening, since sometimes the same setpiece location might be located in relation to a different city. We're not talking a masterwork of verisimilitude here.
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Feb 29, 2016 19:51
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unseenlibrarian posted:Yeah, but he also referenced Varney, which, for example, was supposedly set in the 1700s but continually referenced contemporary-to-the time-it-was-written-events instead, literally ripped off the plot of Frankenstein at one point for several chapters in a row because 'hey, this galvanic science stuff is popular', gave multiple origin stories and changed up the motives for the title character repeatedly... It may have referenced real places, but only because it couldn't decide where any of the stuff going on was happening, since sometimes the same setpiece location might be located in relation to a different city. That's because it was a penny dreadful.
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Feb 29, 2016 19:55
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unseenlibrarian posted:Yeah, but he also referenced Varney, which, for example, was supposedly set in the 1700s but continually referenced contemporary-to-the time-it-was-written-events instead, literally ripped off the plot of Frankenstein at one point for several chapters in a row because 'hey, this galvanic science stuff is popular', gave multiple origin stories and changed up the motives for the title character repeatedly... It may have referenced real places, but only because it couldn't decide where any of the stuff going on was happening, since sometimes the same setpiece location might be located in relation to a different city. 
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Feb 29, 2016 19:57
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MalcolmSheppard posted:That's because it was a penny dreadful. Which is kind of -beside the point- when we're specifically talking about a quote where it was called out for being realistic, dude.
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Feb 29, 2016 19:57
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unseenlibrarian posted:Which is kind of -beside the point- when we're specifically talking about a quote where it was called out for being realistic, dude. Verisimilitude isn't factual realism, but whether something is believable sentimentally. It's not really beside the point that it's sketchy sense of history is probably the direct result of it being a cheap proto-pulp. Varney's filled with overwrought language, but it also grabs whatever it can (from whenever) to make the reader feel present. It doesn't do a fantastic job but again: penny dreadful. It's not presenting an urban fantasy world where churches are 10 stories tall and covered with twitching gargoyles.
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Feb 29, 2016 20:08
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MalcolmSheppard posted:Verisimilitude isn't factual realism, but whether something is believable sentimentally. It's not really beside the point that it's sketchy sense of history is probably the direct result of it being a cheap proto-pulp. Varney's filled with overwrought language, but it also grabs whatever it can (from whenever) to make the reader feel present. It doesn't do a fantastic job but again: penny dreadful. It's not presenting an urban fantasy world where churches are 10 stories tall and covered with twitching gargoyles. Thats an interesting evolution of the word past "the appearance of being real" as a synonym of authentic or credibile.
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Feb 29, 2016 20:15
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I'd just like to point out that 'don't sweat the details and just run with it' is actually a very Nordic Larp-ish way of thinking. I'm almost certain that what he means by versimulitude is that it's something you can loose yourself in. Something that allows you to suspend disbelief, not something that is realistic in the details. I have the same instinctual aversion to the word versimilitude, but i think it's important to remember that martin likely isn't aware of its infamy in certain internet circles.
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Feb 29, 2016 21:00
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Alien Rope Burn posted:The terrifying notion that there might be vampires that dress blue-collar. More terrifying is that they might shop at J Crew! (yes GothWhiz has actually said that is the issue with Requiem)
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Feb 29, 2016 21:23
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Gerund posted:Thats an interesting evolution of the word past "the appearance of being real" as a synonym of authentic or credibile. Did you know that words have meanings specific to their contexts? For example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verisimilitude_(fiction)
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Feb 29, 2016 21:45
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MalcolmSheppard posted:Did you know that words have meanings specific to their contexts? For example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verisimilitude_(fiction) You cite wikipedia in your defense of your idiosyncratic reading of a word.  Okay, but lets take it at face value.In the text you cite, it mentions explicitly that writers would include real references to real locations and events in order to "create credibility (and in turn verisimilitude)". This jives with ME when he says that the vampire novels used "mundane details and are framed as true narratives for a reason." Nowhere is ME going full pomo by saying that a genre (such as Gothic Punk) creates itself its own reality that can be adhered to (because he'd be arguing against himself in his own text). In the text that you and ME are upholding and defending as achieving verisimilitude, it is noted by unseenlibrarian that the text failed to achieve linear events and confused both mundane details and had muddled narratives to tell a story. So if you're going to lean fully into saying that genre is, in itself, a valid expression of verisimilitude, your defense of Varney for being a penny dreadful is destructive to ME's argument that Gothic Punk is a wrong genre that should be abandoned for lacking verisimilitude. Its much more likely that ME wasn't prepared to make a real defense of his argument against Gothic Punk and so pulled some words he thought he knew how to use and some references he somewhat knew about. Gerund fucked around with this message at 22:15 on Feb 29, 2016 |
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Feb 29, 2016 22:13
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I think that he tossed off a loose usage in the literary/dramatic sense of the word to get across the point that putting lace and spikey flying buttresses on everything isn't how he's going to go (by noting that vampire fiction doesn't transport people into another world) but some of you are pretty desperate to be mad at him and willing to go full reductio ad absurdum because Varney the Vampire has continuity problems.
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Feb 29, 2016 22:46
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But verisimilitude is tenuous at best in novels like Dracula and Carmilla, and is not in any way why these stories work. There's a reason all the adaptations go full in on the gothic stuff rather than try and make them seem real. Also, it really doesn't fit with the oWoD, which is stylized as gently caress.
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Feb 29, 2016 22:53
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Androc posted:A centuries-old elder whose tastes were forged in the court of King Henry II dons his leathers and eyeshadow and sits down for a nice, relaxing evening of listening to The Cure. I got bit on purpose so I could live forever and see future cars.
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Feb 29, 2016 23:34
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This is kind of a weird detail to be hung up on. Like yeah, I agree with the basic objection. Dracula and Carmilla are Gothic novels, which defacto makes them Romantic novels. Romanticism is about the form of the thing rather than the specifics (among other things), so saying that it's the verisimilitude of those works that makes them enduring is sort of wrong-faced. That being said, he's otherwise correct, and I thought we'd be in full alignment here: vampires don't have to wear black lace and eyeshadow anymore. One of the problems with cWoD is/was that each of the Clans was very much a reflection of some idiosyncratic part of gothic-punk culture filtered through some specific part of vampire mythos. By removing that reliance on a very 80's-90's movement we're moving away from those stereotypes. It's sort of ironic that there seems to be a little mild pushback on this point from some of the more hardcore Masquerade fans. It's the same objection they had to Requiem. Maybe Toreador don't need to be nihilistic artist stereotypes anymore. Maybe the Tremere have given up their love affair with long jackets. I don't know. I'd like to see that. I think admitting that gothic-punk culture is just a part of the world that vampires live in, rather than some part of vampire culture in specific, you open the door to lots of cool new character archetypes. This was one of the great things about nWoD. We got characters like Count loving Dracula, or Earth Baines, or that Ventrue guy who rules over a trailer park. If that's what this shift means, I'm all for it.
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Feb 29, 2016 23:46
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I'm kind of surprised I'm saying this, but I find myself sympathizing with those lament the passing of Gothic-Punk. This isn't to say that you can have Vampire without Gothic Punk, as Requiem showed. But aesthetics are part of the experience and I don't think it's necessarily true that all RPGs must be set in the Always Evolving Now. Embrace the 90s as gently caress of it, and just say that Masquerade is by default set in the world of bulky cellphones, the fall of the Berlin Wall, and mournfully watching down on the city in your trenchcoat while it rains. View it as what it is, a snapshot of a point in time, but one that is worth engaging on those merits just as much as, say, 1930s Call of Cthulhu.
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Mar 1, 2016 01:02
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I'm not sure the 90s ever ended in Europe?
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Mar 1, 2016 01:20
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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:I'm not sure the 90s ever ended in Europe? Well, Margaret Thatcher died.
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Mar 1, 2016 01:23
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Mors Rattus posted:Well, Margaret Thatcher died. Thatcher isn't dead. She's just waiting to assume her terrible final form.
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Mar 1, 2016 01:28
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Dave Brookshaw posted:Thatcher isn't dead. She's just waiting to assume her terrible final form. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_MW65XxS7s
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Mar 1, 2016 02:06
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dr_ether posted:More terrifying is that they might shop at J Crew! (yes GothWhiz has actually said that is the issue with Requiem) And here I thought the reason the City Gangrel broke from the Gangrel was their insistence on wearing track jackets instead of comfortable yet stylish flannel shirts.
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Mar 1, 2016 02:11
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dr_ether posted:More terrifying is that they might shop at J Crew! (yes GothWhiz has actually said that is the issue with Requiem) You can't just post that and not link to it.
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Mar 1, 2016 02:33
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Mors Rattus posted:You can't just post that and not link to it. I have been digging through my own FB and G+ threads to find it all evening.
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Mar 1, 2016 02:40
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Alien Rope Burn posted:And here I thought the reason the City Gangrel broke from the Gangrel was their insistence on wearing track jackets instead of comfortable yet stylish flannel shirts. City Gangrel were my favorite clan as a teenager, because they got Protean, Celerity, and Obfuscate. 
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Mar 1, 2016 02:43
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MonsieurChoc posted:Full of mundane details and framed as a true narrative: I'll give him Dracula the novel. It opens with three chapters of kinda boring exposition about the eastern European countryside train trip Harker takes on his way to the castle, has long "cutting edge science" sections about Helsing giving Lucy blood transfusions, etc.
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Mar 1, 2016 02:46
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There's a lot of semantic nitpicking over the meaning of the word 'verisimilitude' when it's obvious that what they meant, and what everyone is reacting to, is nostalgia for the 90s aesthetic.
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Mar 1, 2016 02:59
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dr_ether posted:More terrifying is that they might shop at J Crew! (yes GothWhiz has actually said that is the issue with Requiem) I love CofD, obviously, but we could stand to have a few less hoodies. I aimed for zero hoodies in the Awakening 2nd signature characters. Ross Garfield wears vintage Dickies and Acronym techwear. (It's in the art notes!) I have to admit when V20 came out and everybody was wearing these brass-buttoned pirate coats and things it wasn't what I imagined Masquerade was like at all, but was a lot what I imagined well-financed MET LARPers wore.
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Mar 1, 2016 03:14
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MalcolmSheppard posted:I love CofD, obviously, but we could stand to have a few less hoodies. I aimed for zero hoodies in the Awakening 2nd signature characters. Ross Garfield wears vintage Dickies and Acronym techwear. (It's in the art notes!) I often wonder if the pushback on the goth attire that saturates the LARP, and so sets a stereotype of VtM, is an active decision by WWP in order to try and market the game to a wider audience that likes vampires and horror, but not all the crushed velvet, brocade, and faux Victorian clothes - clothes which can be quite expensive which again makes it appear that there is some sort of level of investment to have the "right" clothing for the game.
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Mar 1, 2016 03:32
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dr_ether posted:I often wonder if the pushback on the goth attire that saturates the LARP, and so sets a stereotype of VtM, is an active decision by WWP in order to try and market the game to a wider audience that likes vampires and horror, but not all the crushed velvet, brocade, and faux Victorian clothes - clothes which can be quite expensive which again makes it appear that there is some sort of level of investment to have the "right" clothing for the game. Wardrobe can be a huge thing in Nordic, so I don't think so. I believe it's more so that art and design assets and mood boards and poo poo aren't stuck in old stereotypes.
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Mar 1, 2016 03:53
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MalcolmSheppard posted:Wardrobe can be a huge thing in Nordic, so I don't think so. I believe it's more so that art and design assets and mood boards and poo poo aren't stuck in old stereotypes. But even that will then have a knock on to how it inspires the LARP scene, and perhaps by modernizing the looks makes it more accessible.
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Mar 1, 2016 03:57
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