PYF Historical Fun Fact: (USER LOSETH POSTYNG PRIVILYGES FOR FOUR AND TWENTY HOURS)

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Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

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ToxicSlurpee posted:

Pretty sure a lot of contemporary paganism in the western world is just plain descended from Wicca, which is literally a made up religion that a guy fabricated in the 1950's. He claimed he was talking to people who had been practicing magic in secret but that turned out to be bullshit.If memory serves it was 100% provably bullshit.

Other parts of contemporary paganism are based on concepts that ancient religions had rather than direct lines from them. Other parts are...well, literally crazy people just being crazy and believing they're wizards that talk to faeries.

In the case of ancient druids their histories and religions were generally passed down orally. There just weren't written records so once the Romans started to kick their faces in there was little chance of it surviving. If memory serves druids were generally also leaders of various types, which got them targeted something fierce. When they died their histories died with them.

Yeah, no.

Wicca was conceived in the fifties, but can claim a direct lineage to hermetic magic orders (one of which Gardner was a member of) as well as greek mysteries, and some of their workings are the exact same as animist shamans have used for thousands of years.

I get that you may not like new age thought (a lot of pagans don't either, fyi), but don't present your speculation as certainty :p

# ? Mar 1, 2016 08:20

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# ? May 13, 2024 21:35

Tiny Brontosaurus: Aug 1, 2013; by Lowtax

Tias posted:

Yeah, no.

Wicca was conceived in the fifties, but can claim a direct lineage to hermetic magic orders (one of which Gardner was a member of) as well as greek mysteries, and some of their workings are the exact same as animist shamans have used for thousands of years.

I get that you may not like new age thought (a lot of pagans don't either, fyi), but don't present your speculation as certainty :p

Why are they always so smug.

# ? Mar 1, 2016 08:26

Ellie Crabcakes: Feb 1, 2008; Stop emailing my boyfriend Gay Crungus

Tiny Brontosaurus posted:

Why are they always so smug.

Because they have access to knowledge kept secret for millennia until it landed in the hands of some schmuck who spilled the beans in one or more lovely books.

# ? Mar 1, 2016 08:48

Shbobdb: Dec 16, 2010; by Reene

Aesop Poprock posted:

Isn't there a huge debate as to whether Confucius even existed as a singular/actual person, let alone had a traceable ancestory?

Depends on what you mean. The Analects (complied ~473 BCE) is mostly thought to contain two related groups of thinkers (that we may as well treat as individuals) and, in the later chapters, a random smattering of related comments. But they are all accepted within Confucianism through Mencius (372-289 BCE trad) and Xunzi 313-238 BCE trad), through Han Feizi (280-236 BCE). Han Feizi was a former disciple of Xunzi and a Daoist philosopher who holds the distinction of actually existed as a more or less singular entity as opposed to previous ones that presumably existed as individuals in some sense but are really more gestalt entities representing their schools.

Those Confuciuses are distinct from the Confuciuses that edited the Spring and Autumn Annals (more or less finishing sometime in the 5th century BCE) and wrote the Ten Wings compendium to the Yijing (written sometime/over the course of 500-200 BCE). The authors and compliers of the Spring and Autumn Annals likely became Confucius at the Jixia Academy (381-284 BCE) but may have and the authors of the Ten Wings likely became Confucius during the mid-Han (let's just say sometime between 100BCE and 1CE.

Then there is Kong Qiu, a second son of somebody (lots of mythology here, doesn't matter). That is the individual modern descendants of Confucius trace their lineage to. Lineage is a big deal in Confucianism, so that guy likely existed (and modern genetic evidence seems to bear that out if you are willing to accept some Taiwanese propaganda with your genetic analysis.

Which, if any, of the other Confuciuses that guy was is totally uncertain. Since Mencius seems to authentically mention that guy's grandson, and since Mencius basically used Confucian morality to argue against Mozi's statecraft, you can kinda start to make an argument that maybe it was the moral Confucius from the Analects but that is really far from certain.

# ? Mar 1, 2016 09:21

Comrade Koba: Jul 2, 2007

Tias posted:

Wicca was conceived in the fifties, but can claim a direct lineage to hermetic magic orders (one of which Gardner was a member of) as well as greek mysteries, and some of their workings are the exact same as animist shamans have used for thousands of years.

[citation needed]

# ? Mar 1, 2016 09:36

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Tias posted:

Yeah, no.

Wicca was conceived in the fifties, but can claim a direct lineage to hermetic magic orders (one of which Gardner was a member of) as well as greek mysteries, and some of their workings are the exact same as animist shamans have used for thousands of years.

I get that you may not like new age thought (a lot of pagans don't either, fyi), but don't present your speculation as certainty :p

I sincerely doubt this. I mean sure, it may *claim* to but bullshit.

# ? Mar 1, 2016 10:01

Sucrose: Dec 9, 2009

Tias posted:

Yeah, no.

Wicca was conceived in the fifties, but can claim a direct lineage to hermetic magic orders (one of which Gardner was a member of) as well as greek mysteries, and some of their workings are the exact same as animist shamans have used for thousands of years.

I get that you may not like new age thought (a lot of pagans don't either, fyi), but don't present your speculation as certainty :p

Didn't a lot of the formation of Wicca rest on the theory that various people accused of witchcraft in earlier eras were really secret pagans passing down their knowledge from the old days? Which is complete BS.

# ? Mar 1, 2016 10:40

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

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Sucrose posted:

Didn't a lot of the formation of Wicca rest on the theory that various people accused of witchcraft in earlier eras were really secret pagans passing down their knowledge from the old days? Which is complete BS.

A lot of secret orders said that they were founded in cooperation with a "mysterious crone" who had the true lineage of real G witchery, but this missing link never materialized.

All I'm saying is that that there were hermetic orders older than the fifties, and that Gardner used a lot of what he learned there when founding Wicca.

# ? Mar 1, 2016 11:27

ToxicSlurpee: Nov 5, 2003; -=SEND HELP=-; Pillbug

Sucrose posted:

Didn't a lot of the formation of Wicca rest on the theory that various people accused of witchcraft in earlier eras were really secret pagans passing down their knowledge from the old days? Which is complete BS.

Yeah a great deal of it rests on people managing to practice a religion completely in secret for over a thousand years which never, ever changed once. The claims the guy makes about its foundings are utterly absurd.

A lot of Wicca is based on the theories of one Margaret Murray. A lot of it hinges on witch trials not being bullshit which they frequently were and also witch trials and witch burning being very common, which they weren't. It also hinges on witch trials being entirely truthful which, again, they often weren't. There just isn't evidence existing at all that witchy pagan religions were even practiced let alone persecuted. People that studied witch trials for a living went "yeah this is bullshit" and before too long completely tore the argument to shreds. A big snag is the assumption that witch trials were a perpetual threat to witchcraft for its entire existence. Centuries where witch trials happened at all were an exception rather than a rule in the history of Christianity.

Given that Wicca argues that this is literally its origin story doesn't speak well of the religion. Even the things that can't be proven false are also impossible to prove true. It is possible, though improbable, that witch cults did exist in secret though again very little evidence has been found of such things. More importantly if they were hidden, small, and had been actively hunted it was very unlikely they would be unchanged for 1,000 to 2,000 years. Religions as a whole are prone to changing, schisming, and reorganizing all the drat time. There is absolutely no way that ancient traditions were preserved exactly the way they were for that long.

# ? Mar 1, 2016 12:38

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

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ToxicSlurpee posted:

Yeah a great deal of it rests on people managing to practice a religion completely in secret for over a thousand years which never, ever changed once. The claims the guy makes about its foundings are utterly absurd.

A lot of Wicca is based on the theories of one Margaret Murray. A lot of it hinges on witch trials not being bullshit which they frequently were and also witch trials and witch burning being very common, which they weren't. It also hinges on witch trials being entirely truthful which, again, they often weren't. There just isn't evidence existing at all that witchy pagan religions were even practiced let alone persecuted. People that studied witch trials for a living went "yeah this is bullshit" and before too long completely tore the argument to shreds. A big snag is the assumption that witch trials were a perpetual threat to witchcraft for its entire existence. Centuries where witch trials happened at all were an exception rather than a rule in the history of Christianity.

Given that Wicca argues that this is literally its origin story doesn't speak well of the religion. Even the things that can't be proven false are also impossible to prove true. It is possible, though improbable, that witch cults did exist in secret though again very little evidence has been found of such things. More importantly if they were hidden, small, and had been actively hunted it was very unlikely they would be unchanged for 1,000 to 2,000 years. Religions as a whole are prone to changing, schisming, and reorganizing all the drat time. There is absolutely no way that ancient traditions were preserved exactly the way they were for that long.

No religion does, though, which I why I don't think it speaks particularly ill of Wicca as a religion. What are they doing that christianity or buddhism isn't?

While Gardners claims to have been taught by an "original witch" are clearly bullshit, he didn't invent the religion or it's practices.

# ? Mar 1, 2016 12:46

ToxicSlurpee: Nov 5, 2003; -=SEND HELP=-; Pillbug

Tias posted:

No religion does, though, which I why I don't think it speaks particularly ill of Wicca as a religion. What are they doing that christianity or buddhism isn't?

While Gardners claims to have been taught by an "original witch" are clearly bullshit, he didn't invent the religion or it's practices.

Buddhism and Christianity have provable historic precedent as do other religions.

Wicca does not. In fact what precedent Wicca claims to have is proven to be bullshit.

This doesn't invalidate Wicca as it is practiced now; the problem is that claiming as fact something that has been proven to be nonsense is stupid. It can claim to be modern paganism. Fine, whatever, it is. It cannot claim to be an ancient religion that can trace its roots back 3,000 years.

# ? Mar 1, 2016 12:48

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

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ToxicSlurpee posted:

Buddhism and Christianity have provable historic precedent as do other religions.

Wicca does not. In fact what precedent Wicca claims to have is proven to be bullshit.

This doesn't invalidate Wicca as it is practiced now; the problem is that claiming as fact something that has been proven to be nonsense is stupid. It can claim to be modern paganism. Fine, whatever, it is. It cannot claim to be an ancient religion that can trace its roots back 3,000 years.

No, some of Wiccas claims are demonstratably false, others are not. If you want to say Gardners techniques are made up from whole cloth, you have to disregard the existence of the Golden Dawn and Ordo Templi Orientis, where, you know, he learned them.

# ? Mar 1, 2016 12:56

VanSandman: Feb 16, 2011; SWAP.AVI EXCHANGER

Is it really secret knowledge when it doesn't do any of the magic it claims to?

# ? Mar 1, 2016 13:34

Solice Kirsk: Jun 1, 2004; .

VanSandman posted:

Is it really secret knowledge when it doesn't do any of the magic it claims to?

You have to believe for the magic to work. You know, like how you have to believe in gravity or you'll float away from the Earth.

# ? Mar 1, 2016 14:39

Hogge Wild: Aug 21, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Pillbug

My Hanzo steel Katana +5 has been enchanted by a Wicca High Priestess.

# ? Mar 1, 2016 14:49

e X: Feb 23, 2013; cool but crude

No, you see, he didn't invent all that bullshit, he stole all that bullshit.

# ? Mar 1, 2016 14:54

Aphrodite: Jun 27, 2006

When there are people alive today who were contemporary with the guy who made up your religion, it's bullshit.

In a couple of hundred years maybe Wicca can be a real thing, but right now my grandfather could have known that dude.

He only died in 1964. The guy probably saw Mary Poppins.

# ? Mar 1, 2016 15:06

Solice Kirsk: Jun 1, 2004; .

e X posted:

No, you see, he didn't invent all that bullshit, he stole all that bullshit.

Eh, if Mormons are allowed to be a thing, I have no problem with Wiccans being a thing. Also, I've slept with a couple of Wiccans and they were pretty good in bed and thanked Artemis afterward and stuff. Kinda fun.

# ? Mar 1, 2016 15:07

System Metternich: Feb 28, 2010; But what did he mean by that?

e X posted:

No, you see, he didn't invent all that bullshit, he stole all that bullshit.

I wasn't aware that occultists were patenting their ideas and theories

I know next to nothing about Wicca, but I know that ideas don't simply pop up in a vacuum. Disregarding whether the New Forest coven existed or not, Gardner clearly is part of a tradition in Western thought concerned with occultism and ritual magic going back millennia. The texts on which the Hermetic tradition is based probably date back to the 1st to 3rd century AD (and were themselves probably heavily inspired by ancient Egyptian thought). They were rediscovered during the Renaissance and were quite popular until the 17th century and then again from the late 18th century onward (just read Edgar Allan Poe's writings, which are chock full with this sort of stuff). Gardner didn't simply come up with Wicca all on his own, he was part of a larger school of thought popular in late-19th and early-20th century England which again can be traced back to what I mentioned earlier. There's no need to believe in any of his stuff (I don't), but just going "lol he made it all up am I right fellas!? :smug:

" is both smug and dumb

# ? Mar 1, 2016 15:26

BravestOfTheLamps: Oct 12, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Lipstick Apathy

Magic is made up.

# ? Mar 1, 2016 15:56

Solice Kirsk: Jun 1, 2004; .

Well so is god so, you know, what ever.

# ? Mar 1, 2016 15:58

Byzantine: Sep 1, 2007; Can't post for 3 days!

Solice Kirsk posted:

Eh, if Mormons are allowed to be a thing, I have no problem with Wiccans being a thing. Also, I've slept with a couple of Wiccans and they were pretty good in bed and thanked Artemis afterward and stuff. Kinda fun.

The Goddess of Midwifery? Hope you wrapped it good.

# ? Mar 1, 2016 16:00

System Metternich: Feb 28, 2010; But what did he mean by that?

BravestOfTheLamps posted:

Magic is made up.

So what?

# ? Mar 1, 2016 16:02

Solice Kirsk: Jun 1, 2004; .

Byzantine posted:

The Goddess of Midwifery? Hope you wrapped it good.

Oh that poo poo was bagged tight.

# ? Mar 1, 2016 16:20

Safety Biscuits: Oct 21, 2010

Shbobdb posted:

Which, if any, of the other Confuciuses that guy was is totally uncertain. Since Mencius seems to authentically mention that guy's grandson, and since Mencius basically used Confucian morality to argue against Mozi's statecraft, you can kinda start to make an argument that maybe it was the moral Confucius from the Analects but that is really far from certain.

Do you have a source on this, because I was under the impression that Confucius was unusual for a religion's founder in that we know the facts of his life fairly well and are sure he wasn't a conflation or fictional.

# ? Mar 1, 2016 16:21

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

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e X posted:

No, you see, he didn't invent all that bullshit, he stole all that bullshit.

# ? Mar 1, 2016 17:00

the holy poopacy: May 16, 2009; hey! check this out; Fun Shoe

System Metternich posted:

I wasn't aware that occultists were patenting their ideas and theories

I know next to nothing about Wicca, but I know that ideas don't simply pop up in a vacuum. Disregarding whether the New Forest coven existed or not, Gardner clearly is part of a tradition in Western thought concerned with occultism and ritual magic going back millennia. The texts on which the Hermetic tradition is based probably date back to the 1st to 3rd century AD (and were themselves probably heavily inspired by ancient Egyptian thought). They were rediscovered during the Renaissance and were quite popular until the 17th century and then again from the late 18th century onward (just read Edgar Allan Poe's writings, which are chock full with this sort of stuff). Gardner didn't simply come up with Wicca all on his own, he was part of a larger school of thought popular in late-19th and early-20th century England which again can be traced back to what I mentioned earlier. There's no need to believe in any of his stuff (I don't), but just going "lol he made it all up am I right fellas!? " is both smug and dumb

The fact that Wicca can trace its inspirations to so many disparate sources makes it in many ways less authentic, not more. It cannot simultaneously be a syncretic system and an ancient historical tradition. Moreover, Gardner himself acknowledged that a lot of the traditions of "witchcraft" were lost and many of the practices he was teaching were indeed made up as a good-faith approximation.

The sad fact is that a lot of Celtic culture went extinct by the early modern era and a lot of what we think of as Celtic culture was invented around the 19th century in an attempt to fill in the blanks.

# ? Mar 1, 2016 17:02

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

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Gabriel Pope posted:

The fact that Wicca can trace its inspirations to so many disparate sources makes it in many ways less authentic, not more. It cannot simultaneously be a syncretic system and an ancient historical tradition. Moreover, Gardner himself acknowledged that a lot of the traditions of "witchcraft" were lost and many of the practices he was teaching were indeed made up as a good-faith approximation.

The sad fact is that a lot of Celtic culture went extinct by the early modern era and a lot of what we think of as Celtic culture was invented around the 19th century in an attempt to fill in the blanks.

The point that I (and wiccans AFAIK) was trying to make, is that Wicca IS a syncretic system, with practices that incorporate both hermetic esotericism (way older than the fifties) and revivalist mother earth/father sky worship (which at least tries to reconstitute something much, much older).

# ? Mar 1, 2016 17:13

A Festivus Miracle: Dec 19, 2012; I have come to discourse on the profound inequities of the American political system.

The only ancient religion that lets you pick up chicks and burn thing is Hellenism. gently caress your wiccan bullshit. :colbert:

# ? Mar 1, 2016 17:18

Philippe: Aug 9, 2013; (she/her)

What about Crusading?

# ? Mar 1, 2016 17:21

Aphrodite: Jun 27, 2006

There might be a lot to Wicca but I'll never know because everyone I've met who says they are one doesn't go any further than "I'm a witch and I believe in magic" and paid way too much for a cheap metal necklace.

# ? Mar 1, 2016 17:23

Greatbacon: Apr 9, 2012; by Pragmatica

Tasteful Dickpic posted:

What about Crusading?

That's more of a lifestyle than a religion.

# ? Mar 1, 2016 17:25

Apprentice Dick: Dec 1, 2009

Aphrodite posted:

There might be a lot to Wicca but I'll never know because everyone I've met who says they are one doesn't go any further than "I'm a witch and I believe in magic" and paid way too much for a cheap metal necklace.

Don't forget the magic crystals (polished quartz usually) that pull negative energy from the surrounding area.

# ? Mar 1, 2016 17:54

Tiny Brontosaurus: Aug 1, 2013; by Lowtax

Tias posted:

See! So smug! You're the spherically fat harry-potter-kin here, Megyyyn with three Ys and also it's in ye olde timey script or you're spelling it wrong, DAD, so the burden of proof is on you. I bet you're exactly this insufferable about people with Wrong Opinions about Dr. Who

# ? Mar 1, 2016 17:57

Aphrodite: Jun 27, 2006

Apprentice Dick posted:

Don't forget the magic crystals (polished quartz usually) that pull negative energy from the surrounding area.

No, that part's real. I got one that also keeps tigers away and it works great.

I mean sometimes I still feel the negative energy, but you're never going to get full 100% performance from a hybrid item and I haven't been attacked by a tiger even once.

# ? Mar 1, 2016 18:25

Shbobdb: Dec 16, 2010; by Reene

Well, first we can write off the mythological parts (dancing dragons, talking animals, etc) leaving us with the records of the grand historian Sims Qian who lived 145-86 CE, so a good couple of hundred years after Confucius.

In the Analects, Confucius calls himself a transmitter not an innovator of the scholarly tradition of the Zhou Empire, Rujia. The Mozi (Micius), which chronologically more or less fits between the Analects and the Mencius, talks about 5 schools of Rujia some of which have very "unconfucian" beliefs, so where do you place Confucius within that?

I believed there was an influential Ru from Lu who held some minor positions at different states and opened an academy. The Spring and Autumn Annals and the Ten Wings were written by somebodies, and the Analects were complied by Ru but connecting some or even most of these to a single person is sketchy at best.

Daniel K Gardner at Smith College has written a lot about this if you have access to an academic account. While dated, Wing Tsit-Chan's source book of Chinese philosophy is also really solid.

# ? Mar 1, 2016 18:26

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To oohs😮 to ahhs😱 to 👏big👏applause👏
With all of my 😡anger I scream🤬 and shout📢
🇺🇸America🦅, I love you 🥰but you're freaking 💦me 😳out; Biscuit Hider

Tias posted:

The point that I (and wiccans AFAIK) was trying to make, is that Wicca IS a syncretic system, with practices that incorporate both hermetic esotericism (way older than the fifties) and revivalist mother earth/father sky worship (which at least tries to reconstitute something much, much older).

So are you backing off of your claim that it can claim "direct lineage" to ancient tradition?

# ? Mar 1, 2016 18:59

BravestOfTheLamps: Oct 12, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Lipstick Apathy

Our tradition can claim descent from a long lineage of frauds.

# ? Mar 1, 2016 19:06

System Metternich: Feb 28, 2010; But what did he mean by that?

Tiny Brontosaurus posted:

See! So smug! You're the spherically fat harry-potter-kin here, Megyyyn with three Ys and also it's in ye olde timey script or you're spelling it wrong, DAD, so the burden of proof is on you. I bet you're exactly this insufferable about people with Wrong Opinions about Dr. Who

you should get your anger issues sorted out, hth

# ? Mar 1, 2016 19:40

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# ? May 13, 2024 21:35

Shbobdb: Dec 16, 2010; by Reene

Tracing itself back to 19th century romanticism makes Wicca as old as Mormonism. Don't hate just because they changed the name from Theosophy.

# ? Mar 1, 2016 19:41

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