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watho posted:I have played DW rats and cook off religiously and I've never seen Winters taken out with just one rocket and 2 is rare.
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Mar 1, 2016 06:35
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Discendo Vox posted:800*6*1.25=6000 Maximum theoretical RPG damage on Winters is 800*6*1.15 = 5520 The only modifiers that apply after clamping are damage type bonuses. The only damage type bonuses applicable to the RPG is spotter (1.15x). Winters has an additional explosive vunlerability that applies like a damage type bonus (6x). Perk deck bonus only applies on raycast weapons, but even if it did apply to the RPG it'd apply before the damage clamping, not after. It's a weapon type bonus, not a damage type bonus.
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Mar 1, 2016 06:37
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My apologies, then- two rockets to make Winters retreat, from any distance, on DW. One rocket on Overkill.watho posted:Not saying it can't happen, just that the build and accuracy required to make it happen is not something worth counting on. Accuracy is essentially perfect for the RPG. With my dear friends' very politely worded corrections above, if you hit near Winters twice, he leaves. Thank you for correcting me-you're helping me learn! I'm thinking dropping the explosive multiplier on Winters et al would make the most sense. edit: separately, I'm visualizing the religious playing of Rats and DW, and it's giving me horrible flashbacks to the time shortly after release. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 07:01 on Mar 1, 2016 |
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Mar 1, 2016 06:50
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It's still 2 rockets on Overkill because the damage clamp is 10% of Winters' total health, so an RPG will do 600*6*1.15 for 4,140 damage, or 69% of Winters' health. Also all this discussion doesn't take into account Winters' damage reduction. If you can't deal with him right away and he manages to post up at his designated spot it's going to probably take 3 rockets as the damage reduction is done after all the multipliers are applied.
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Mar 1, 2016 07:11
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Insert name here posted:It's still 2 rockets on Overkill because the damage clamp is 10% of Winters' total health, so an RPG will do 600*6*1.15 for 4,140 damage, or 69% of Winters' health. Also all this discussion doesn't take into account Winters' damage reduction. If you can't deal with him right away and he manages to post up at his designated spot it's going to probably take 3 rockets as the damage reduction is done after all the multipliers are applied. Well there must be something wrong with the calculation then, because 1 rocket definitely sends Winters running, even after he's set up shop for a time on overkill.
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Mar 1, 2016 07:15
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Discendo Vox posted:Well there must be something wrong with the calculation then, because 1 rocket definitely sends Winters running, even after he's set up shop for a time on overkill. Nah, one rocket will do the trick if you hit dead center right as he's setting up shop but if you wait a bit it moves to 2 ones on OVK iirc although once you're at the point where it takes 2 rockets the reload time will push it into the 3 rocket territory.
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Mar 1, 2016 07:19
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I see the reason everyone agrees the RPG is balanced and Vox doesn't isn't a disagreement over the RPG itself, it's that one party in the debate doesn't actually know how it works.
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Mar 1, 2016 07:30
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watho posted:Nah, one rocket will do the trick if you hit dead center right as he's setting up shop but if you wait a bit it moves to 2 ones on OVK iirc although once you're at the point where it takes 2 rockets the reload time will push it into the 3 rocket territory. Well, here's what I don't get- if the calculations Insert Name Here and I were working from were accurate, a single rocket should be flat out impossible. And I'm pretty confident of DW one-rocket takedowns, as well. How can these be reconciled? Psion posted:I see the reason everyone agrees the RPG is balanced and Vox doesn't isn't a disagreement over the RPG itself, it's that one party in the debate doesn't actually know how it works. I guess I'm just better at the game than everyone else, and I'm not reading the Long Guide enough.  Sorry, everyone- I'll try to correct both of these errors in the future! Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 07:40 on Mar 1, 2016 |
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Mar 1, 2016 07:30
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https://gfycat.com/BitterImperturbableCirriped Overkill, Winters untouched by anything but the RPG, no Spotter bonus, not fired on until the badge popped up. Please tell me exactly how to recreate the anecdotal evidence you keep referencing with no one to back you up, especially how to one-shot him once his DR has gone closer to 50%. Thanks! And gently caress it, while I'm posting gfys: https://gfycat.com/EssentialInferiorJellyfish
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Mar 1, 2016 08:02
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You know, maybe if someone could, like, provide some evidence to support their claims... Maybe, like, a video? I dunno... Maybe like this video here that I literally just made. Discendo Vox posted:1 rocket definitely sends Winters running, even after he's set up shop for a time on overkill. So this is demonstrably false. Yes, it's entirely plausible that Overkill did something/there's a bug/whatever, such that you can kill Winters in one RPG shot. But you'll have to forgive me for insisting that someone provide evidence of that. E: Goddammit, Pickle.
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Mar 1, 2016 08:02
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One of these days Death Vox may actually be made and it will have even less of an enclosed player population than the mod that keeps the game forever before safes were added. Just ONE.
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Mar 1, 2016 08:37
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'Game is not hard enough' is the new 'gently caress you Overkill for microtransactions'. At least it's rational discussion here though, unlike on the Steam forums where someone suggested removing the Restart option because having it there is 'spoiling the community'.
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Mar 1, 2016 08:51
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I've confirmed that several people I run with have separately taken out Winters on Overkill with a single RPG, no other damage applied.Wastrel_ posted:'Game is not hard enough' is the new 'gently caress you Overkill for microtransactions'. At least it's rational discussion here though, unlike on the Steam forums where someone suggested removing the Restart option because having it there is 'spoiling the community'. Hey now, I'm not an antisemite. More generally, when large segments of the playerbase are generally finding the game too easy, the game might actually be too easy. The powercreep problem itself has been pretty accepted since the stat rebalance, if not before.
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Mar 1, 2016 09:14
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Discendo Vox posted:I've confirmed that several people I run with have separately taken out Winters on Overkill with a single RPG, no other damage applied. No they obviously haven't.
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Mar 1, 2016 09:21
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My uncle at Overkill says no it doesn't, Vox. Show real video evidence where you play with Morningstar and Pickle without any mods that one rocket can kill winters on Overkill or above or admit that you aren't arguing about anything other than what you feel.
Crabtree fucked around with this message at 09:24 on Mar 1, 2016 |
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Mar 1, 2016 09:21
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Discendo Vox posted:
Well and good, except that the Steam forums might not represent a significant segment of the playerbase, and also most of the people who claim the game is too easy have barely made a dent in the DW heist achievements. I like the power creep, DW on large heists was all but impossible before it.
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Mar 1, 2016 09:39
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I'm not just (or particularly) referring to the steam forums. I maintain accounts in several different places with payday 2 discussion. Pretty much any sub-community that's got enough organization to set up games among themselves have turned to discussing how the game has become too easy, and can no longer hold player attention. If there were particular DW heists you were having trouble with, we could discuss them? DW represents the other end of the bimodal distribution of outcomes- the blunt way that difficulty was implemented was what got me interested in discussing the game's design and balance in the first place. Black dozers are just the most infamous part of that process.
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Mar 1, 2016 10:02
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Are we suppose to take your word for it when you wanted to nerf explosives hidden in terrible double talk?
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Mar 1, 2016 10:04
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oohhboy posted:Are we suppose to take your word for it when you wanted to nerf explosives hidden in terrible double talk? you are supposed to ignore his opinions because they bad
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Mar 1, 2016 10:05
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Payday difficulty is perfect, overkill is just right if you're terribly drunk or something similar.
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Mar 1, 2016 13:09
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Discendo Vox posted:
DW when it was first introduced was unbelievably terrible because at that time neither perk decks nor dodge builds existed, let alone powerful weapons like RPGs, molotovs, flamethrowers. The newest innovation at that time was grenades, which did gently caress-all on DW. The most viable build at that time was the techforcer, which tanked damage very well on Overkill. But DW - then as now - meant more policemen who could hit harder. So being hit was inevitable on DW, and the damage was such that 3-4 bullets could totally drain a fully upgraded ICTV, after which 3-4 shots would down you (remember - no muscle perk deck nor health regen at this time). So you had a situation where the most viable build made you slow and thus unable to avoid enemy fire, and this enemy fire would quite rapidly bring you down (I believe Muscle perk deck was developed precisely to make heavy armour viable on DW, so that people would have an alternative to/shut the gently caress up about akimbo fugiminds). After which you got revived at 10% health - and no cupcakes existed at this time, either! So it was either heal, or get inevitably rapidly downed again and eventually go into custody. So health bags tended to go quickly, and once they went things essentially became a death spiral. Hence only shorter heists could be beaten as only then would the health supplies last long enough. That was unbelievably unfun to play and led me to quit the game for nearly a year. I'll take the current DW over that stupid bullshit any day of the week.
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Mar 1, 2016 13:26
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Perhaps - just perhaps - the solution for your problem, Vox, isn't to nerf the poo poo out of everything explosive for doing what explosives are designed to do. Have you considered other, far more elegant solutions like Winters respawning (killing him with 1-2 RPGs isn't a big deal until he's coming back every 3 minutes) or not having him be (bugs aside) clockwork predictable? A lot of the ease of dealing with him is that he shows up only once, loudly lets everyone know he's there so you can get into position, then he spawns at exactly the same spot every time, paths to exactly the same spot and chills out there, normally with easy long range sightlines to him and plenty of easy cover.
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Mar 1, 2016 15:22
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Winters on The Diamond is a prime example on how to utilize him. Him spawning disrupts everything and you really need to fight your way towards him.
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Mar 1, 2016 15:31
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I don't think putting Winters spawns in locations where it's difficult to find cover would be a good solution, it should be manageable for a crew to murder the captain with regular guns. The easiest way to do that is put two crew members on opposite sides of the phalanx and play peek-a-boo. The one thing Counterfeit gets right is having multiple locations for the captain to path to. watho posted:Winters on The Diamond is a prime example on how to utilize him. Him spawning disrupts everything and you really need to fight your way towards him. Big Bank does this as well, it's great.
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Mar 1, 2016 15:31
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watho posted:Winters on The Diamond is a prime example on how to utilize him. Him spawning disrupts everything and you really need to fight your way towards him. I also like the spot on Firestarter 1 - it's a wonderfully dickish position and puts real pressure on because he shows up (when he shows up) right when the crew is moving a dozen bags through that space. On the other hand you've got his spot in Alesso, which is basically rpg-target.jpg.
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Mar 1, 2016 16:29
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Wastrel_ posted:DW when it was first introduced was unbelievably terrible because at that time neither perk decks nor dodge builds existed, let alone powerful weapons like RPGs, molotovs, flamethrowers. The newest innovation at that time was grenades, which did gently caress-all on DW. The most viable build at that time was the techforcer, which tanked damage very well on Overkill. But DW - then as now - meant more policemen who could hit harder. So being hit was inevitable on DW, and the damage was such that 3-4 bullets could totally drain a fully upgraded ICTV, after which 3-4 shots would down you (remember - no muscle perk deck nor health regen at this time). So you had a situation where the most viable build made you slow and thus unable to avoid enemy fire, and this enemy fire would quite rapidly bring you down (I believe Muscle perk deck was developed precisely to make heavy armour viable on DW, so that people would have an alternative to/shut the gently caress up about akimbo fugiminds). After which you got revived at 10% health - and no cupcakes existed at this time, either! So it was either heal, or get inevitably rapidly downed again and eventually go into custody. So health bags tended to go quickly, and once they went things essentially became a death spiral. Hence only shorter heists could be beaten as only then would the health supplies last long enough. While I largely agree with your overall sentiment, you're not quite correct. Dodge did exist back then, as did Enforcer bonus health, by way of tier bonuses. Though in the former case very few people ever figured out how to take advantage of it. Speaking of tier bonuses, another reason things were hosed up is that the 25% headshot bonus was only available by investing in Technician, which constricted builds further. (And that was on top of the DW headshot penalty, which created even more of a gap.) For Winters tweaks, it would be much better if he only announced himself once his phalanx was in position and the damage resistance was beginning to tick. You could still theoretically camp his spawn, but on a lot of maps that means keeping yourself in an odd position and far away from objectives. Combined with respawning and some improved spawn locations, he'd work much better as a panic event. Also we still need more map remixes (which was always half the point of Death Vox) like the closed warehouse on Watchdogs 2. Though to their credit, Overkill has been pretty good about their randomized objectives lately, at least in their new maps. Both Point Break heists and Goat Sim do good jobs of forcing you into odd positions without totally scrambling everything. I think one of the reasons why the Wolf Pack maps feel flat is that most their randomizations aren't meaningful. Where the water valve is on Counterfeit doesn't radically change your strategy, whereas if and where the SWAT van spawns definitely does. John Murdoch fucked around with this message at 17:02 on Mar 1, 2016 |
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Mar 1, 2016 16:50
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I've been trying to get my main group back together for some payday after a break since basically November, and it's just not going anywhere. One of my friends biggest problem with the game is that "everything is the same." We played some counterfeit as our first mission and they basically just go "cooking meth but with paper and printer ink? Boring." And I am not sure what exactly they want from the game other than shooting cops. Any implementation of an objective in this game falls into the category of "get stuff or do stuff." What else can you ask for in a game about "heisting?" Granted we have been steamrolling OVK difficulty so maybe a move to Death wish will give more challenge and more interest?
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Mar 1, 2016 17:14
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Probably. With the current environment Death Wish is a nice difficulty level.
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Mar 1, 2016 17:35
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the shame of not putting an ACOG on your rocket launcher the shame this is also my exact experience as well and I use the RPG as much or more than Sykic. (Sykic is better with the GLs than me though, so he's still king explosion). Winters takes two rockets, three if you don't pounce immediately and therefore let him get his DR up, and this makes him a real concern on DW because sprinting to his spawn position from deeper inside the map is not always feasible, even for grinders  I should also point out it usually requires a teammate to pull aggro lest the shield phalanx shoot down your rocket, which is a real concern considering the long reload time of the launcher. It's something you can mitigate, sure, but interceptable projectiles are, obviously, relevant to balance. Even if I think it's exceptionally dumb RPGs can get shot down by cops, it is a thing. Speaking of which, I hope everyone noticed even Vox's original bad math proved his own claim wrong? 6000 != 6400. Remembering that our original situation was Deathwish, where Winters has 8000 hp, and Winters always retreats at 20% hp (so, 1600 hp remaining): Even with the incorrect calculation, it means one rocket would not force Winters to retreat even under the initial claim, much less the subsequent actual mathematical and video proof demonstrating in Actual Payday instead of Vox's Head, it's still incorrect. for reference, the original incorrect math: Discendo Vox posted:A direct or near-direct hit (within ~4 meters, I think) from the RPG will cause Winters to retreat instantly on DW Psion fucked around with this message at 17:47 on Mar 1, 2016 |
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Mar 1, 2016 17:41
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boy goddamn howdy these last couple pages were a right joy to read except that they made me want to disfigure my face
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Mar 1, 2016 17:41
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Dr Cheeto posted:I don't think putting Winters spawns in locations where it's difficult to find cover would be a good solution, it should be manageable for a crew to murder the captain with regular guns. The easiest way to do that is put two crew members on opposite sides of the phalanx and play peek-a-boo. he always shows up when we're loading bags into the van, so for me Winters on Big Bank is "I wish that slaughterhouse achievement was on this map too"
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Mar 1, 2016 17:45
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Coolguye posted:boy goddamn howdy these last couple pages were a right joy to read except that they made me want to disfigure my face Well yes they are probably the worst, least productive pages the thread has had to date, on the plus side I actually kind of like this mask: Psion posted:Let's post mask roulettes instead.
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Mar 1, 2016 17:48
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Coolguye posted:boy goddamn howdy these last couple pages were a right joy to read except that they made me want to disfigure my face RPG and winters balance chat again is always so goddamn bad. we need a new DLC so that people can complain or gush about that instead
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Mar 1, 2016 17:53
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Literal Nazi Furry posted:RPG and winters balance chat again is always so goddamn bad. we need a new DLC so that people can complain or gush about that instead Agreed. Or we could at least talk about the guns we want added to the game. Like a Bizon, or a Calico, or a G11...
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Mar 1, 2016 17:57
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Explosionface posted:Agreed. Or we could at least talk about the guns we want added to the game. Like a Bizon, or a Calico, or a G11... that dual-barrel 1911 is clearly the answer akimbo, of course Tulip posted:on the plus side I actually kind of like this mask: Mask roulettes are proof of that 'infinite monkeys with typewriters eventually banging out shakespeare' concept. Eventually you get non-atrocious roulettes. Have some more!         (this one is actually pretty good, all things considered)    gently caress THIS FOREVER    Psion fucked around with this message at 18:06 on Mar 1, 2016 |
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Mar 1, 2016 17:59
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I kinda want a payday 2 XCOM 2 DLC where we get a few of the alien tech weapons from that, and a heist DLC in the same vein where the cops are replaced with advent troops and bulldozers are mutons, and so on. The heist would be to get onto an Alien ship and steal some sort of Alien tech for Vlad (Because always Vlad) that would make Meltdown look like baby's first WMD deal. Alternatively I want a new weapon DLC that adds a bunch of random weapons from different countries and movies. Like a PKM, or maybe a few more WW2 weapons like an MP40 or a MP44 or something like that.
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Mar 1, 2016 18:05
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Psion posted:that dual-barrel 1911 is clearly the answer I hate that it exists in real life, but it's ludicrous enough that I like the idea of it in Payday. I like the way you think.
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Mar 1, 2016 18:16
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Let's post about skins. The Tribal Feud is great and they finally stopped being a completely ludicrous price a few weeks ago.  I was gonna flip this for money but it turns out the Street Sweeper is actually a fine gun worth using now. It also looks real nice.  I'm actually a bigger fan of the color scheme than the Houston decal, which is kinda tacky.  The event safes, are, IMO, the start of Overkill improving their design.   I'm not much of a fan of the paid safe skins until the Dallas safe.     You don't need flashy designs for a good skin of course.    Sometimes flashy is good. 
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Mar 1, 2016 18:46
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And then sometimes, there's this 
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Mar 1, 2016 19:03
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Psion posted:Unless we can demonstrate evidence of a bug (Overkill? Bugs? Never!) your claims are demonstrably false and the burden of proof lies solely with you to demonstrate otherwise. At the time, and as you've excised from the original post, I stated that any of a number of other skills or multipliers could also apply on top of that calculation. I accepted I was wrong about that. I still have multiple people who tell me Winters can leave after one rocket on overkill. I still think that even being able to do this with two rockets defeats the purpose of the Winters concept. Randomizing Winters locations is plausible on some maps more than others. I was one of the people advocating for this idea before it was implemented in Counterfeit. Winters time of spawn is randomized. Having a voice line far in advance of his arrival appears to be a bug, but I think the idea of removing all of those pre-arrival lines in general-for turrets too- is a good one. The complication for Winters is that the initial line also locks the assault status. That bug would need to be fixed before this change would really work. I don't think a Winters respawn would be a good idea, primarily because Winters as a unit screws with a large number of game systems beyond enemy health-for one thing, Winters and his unit take up about a third of all enemy spawn slots. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 20:34 on Mar 1, 2016 |
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Mar 1, 2016 20:26
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