CanPol Megathread: Big Changus

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vyelkin: Jan 2, 2011

MagicCube posted:

I just have to point out how stupid your objection to teaching Aboriginal languages is. There are already Aboriginal Studies departments at most universities so how would Aboriginal language programs involve, as you put it,
?

Asking universities to consider offering a few courses on a subject is the same thing as making it mandatory for every university student to attain fluency in Beothuk in order to graduate. Especially STEM students.

# ? Mar 3, 2016 02:02

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# ? May 14, 2024 14:50

Helsing: Aug 23, 2003; DON'T POST IN THE ELECTION THREAD UNLESS YOU JOE BIDEN

Do it ironically posted:

communism doesn't work

Posters like you are the reason that any time I make a joke post I get this sinking feeling that a non-trivial number of people assume I"m being sincere.

# ? Mar 3, 2016 02:02

flakeloaf: Feb 26, 2003; Still better than android clock

THC posted:

My ex-boyfriend is from a small native community and they couldn't even teach him their own language while he was growing up because the only person qualified to do it (and who had done it for decades) had gone senile. His older sister is now able to do it, because she committed herself to it, but unfortunately a generation of their community had to go without while she was gaining the necessary qualifications. It would be fantastic if the feds provided more funding and incentives for this. One could even argue, that it would Create Jobs�

This is the example I was looking for. Making me pore over Nishi for Dummies for two semesters isn't going to do squat, but teaching a university student to speak his own people's language at a scholarly level unlocks things about his culture that he (and those he'd teach) would never discover otherwise.

Helsing posted:

I suggested to CI a while back that his next term of abuse for the thread should be Marijuana Marxists, and then Pinterest Mom improved upon that with the more elegant "Tokin Trots".

And lo, the gang tag was born.

# ? Mar 3, 2016 02:03

Argas: Jan 13, 2008; SRW Fanatic

Melian Dialogue posted:

Learning languages for White people isn't to directly help Aboriginal people (stop saying Native, you sound like an old racist grandpa), its to integrate them into our predominantly white society and to teach non-aboriginals about aboriginal culture so that in the future idiots who don't "get" why we need to give a gently caress about writing wrongs won't be so easily swayed into their echo chamber.

Look at New Zealand where Maori is an official language and where traditional aboriginal practices are integrated into the identity of what being a New Zealander is. Thats why you see New Zealand Army members doing Hakas at funerals, but you don't see Canadian Forces members doing the Sundance.

Now I'm aware NZ had an easier time because their version of colonialism was "back the strongest warrior tribe and ally with them to ethnically subjugate the others inline", but nevertheless their method of integration is much more appropriate.

And it might give Canadians a sense of cultural pride and identity that isn't rooted in being less lovely than America in certain specific ways.

# ? Mar 3, 2016 02:12

Agnosticnixie: Jan 6, 2015

PittTheElder posted:

Also, the towns were already there.

Along with a lot of the roads.

Also lol at PT6A acting like an unironic angryphone. Quebec has funded primary and secondary levels in a bunch of non official languages and has had it for decades and you're going to cry about the cree getting a university because you feel oppressed by a few frogs?

Nobody is going to force you to learn beothuk, the anglo tears that would come with that would probably make the lakes overflow and nobody wants that much schadenfreude.

# ? Mar 3, 2016 02:14

Excelsiortothemax: Sep 9, 2006

Here in Lethbridge we are preparing for water sanctions so we can use all the tears pls.

# ? Mar 3, 2016 02:18

PT6A: Jan 5, 2006; Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

Agnosticnixie posted:

Along with a lot of the roads.

Also lol at PT6A acting like an unironic angryphone. Quebec has funded primary and secondary levels in a bunch of non official languages and has had it for decades and you're going to cry about the cree getting a university because you feel oppressed by a few frogs?

Nobody is going to force you to learn beothuk, the anglo tears that would come with that would probably make the lakes overflow and nobody wants that much schadenfreude.

I think there's a difference between encouraging universities to offer courses in other languages (they should be offering instructional courses in as many languages as possible) and/or even creating a university that will function entirely in another language (which is a great idea too) and requiring universities to offer special status for aboriginal languages.

Ironically, if there were to be a university created in Quebec to operate in an aboriginal language, Quebec's retarded language laws would allow for students to take their examinations in French :v:

So, yeah, basically I wanted to take a potshot as Quebecers (notice I didn't specify Francophones in general, because non-Quebec Francophones in Canada have the entirely reasonable protections of federal law, and nothing beyond that) because they are whiny and I don't like them. Protecting endangered languages is cool and good provided they are actually endangered, not simply endangered in the drug-addled fever dreams of their fiercest partisans.

# ? Mar 3, 2016 02:35

Frosted Flake: Sep 13, 2011; Semper Shitpost Ubique

MA-Horus posted:

Frosted, I hate to say it but your views on Roman Gaul are hilariously revisionist. Yes, Caesar's conquests brought "culture" and "civilization" to Gaul and Belgae, much in the same way Ghengis Khan brought "culture" to China and the Quarismian middle east

By murdering EVERYONE

You can't just say "oh yes towns and roads showed up" without also bringing up the fact that Caesar basically walled in tens of thousands of gauls and left them to starve to death because "great men are very often bad men"

I know I know. Classics is right now in a revisionist-revisionist phase in reaction to scholars for the last few decades throwing Durant and Gibbons out the window. This is really apparent in the study of Late Antiquity and the Early Middle ages where books written even 5 years apart have wildly different slants. For example, the current take is that Christianity was probably not The Worst Thing Ever and there might have been some appealing aspects to it, causing Jew, Roman and later 'Barbarian' to convert (mostly) willingly and (mostly) sincerely.

When in the Kingdom of Soissons recalled their glorious past in the 5th century, they looked back to the Roman world not the Gallic. However it happened, the people living in that area really did come to think of themselves as being Roman, even after there was no 'Rome'. I'd be happy to shoot the poo poo about Late Antiquity in the GiP history thread if that's your thing. I just finished The Origins of Business, Money and Markets which is a pretty interesting take on the Roman world from a different perspective.

e: Sorry for the Classics derail.

Most of the recommendations are good, and I hope they're acted on. Residential Schools were bad in theory, bad in policy and bad in implementation.

Frosted Flake fucked around with this message at 02:42 on Mar 3, 2016

# ? Mar 3, 2016 02:37

Baronjutter: Dec 31, 2007; "Tiny Trains"

Of course GiP needs their own history thread. One in another sub forum might have an anti-military bias.

# ? Mar 3, 2016 02:44

JawKnee: Mar 24, 2007; You'll take the ride to leave this town along that yellow line

flakeloaf posted:

And lo, the gang tag was born.

would wear with pride

# ? Mar 3, 2016 02:58

Helsing: Aug 23, 2003; DON'T POST IN THE ELECTION THREAD UNLESS YOU JOE BIDEN

flakeloaf posted:

And lo, the gang tag was born.

420 Full Communism Every Day

Frosted Flake posted:

I just finished The Origins of Business, Money and Markets which is a pretty interesting take on the Roman world from a different perspective.

I'll have to check this one out, I love this kind of history. If I could ask you to clarify though, the author doesn't intend for the title to imply that business, money and markets all arose simultaneously does he? These are generally thought to all have distinct and separate origins.

# ? Mar 3, 2016 03:00

Frosted Flake: Sep 13, 2011; Semper Shitpost Ubique

Helsing posted:

I'll have to check this one out, I love this kind of history. If I could ask you to clarify though, the author doesn't intend for the title to imply that business, money and markets all arose simultaneously does he? These are generally thought to all have distinct and separate origins.

Highly recommend!

Not in the slightest! He shows separate origins for the three and then proposed that the Hellenistic and then Roman system combined and diffused them throughout the Mediterranean.

Roberts in in agreement with most historians in the Lydians minting the first western coins. He suggests that pure gold coins were too valuable for everyday transactions. Instead coins paid mercenaries for a year of service and not much else. The Persians and then Greeks minted lower value coins that, when combined with Greek market systems made them practical for daily use.

e: He also goes very in depth in how the Roman client-patron system enabled empire spanning enterprise on a level previously impossible. It's really amazing work, and I'm afraid to do it a disservice by phoneposting an explanation but it helps explain how someone like Crassus could accumulate wealth like he did or how the Republic could have as few as 200 landowners. Roman patronage is really one of those subjects that isn't too interesting if you don't read up on it - but once you do it's fascinating!

Frosted Flake fucked around with this message at 03:18 on Mar 3, 2016

# ? Mar 3, 2016 03:12

Agnosticnixie: Jan 6, 2015

Frosted Flake posted:

Highly recommend!

Not in the slightest! He shows separate origins for the three and then proposed that the Hellenistic and then Roman system combined and diffused them throughout the Mediterranean.

Roberts in in agreement with most historians in the Lydians minting the first western coins. He suggests that pure gold coins were too valuable for everyday transactions. Instead coins paid mercenaries for a year of service and not much else. The Persians and then Greeks minted lower value coins that, when combined with Greek market systems made them practical for daily use.

The hellenistic push in Gaul predates the roman conquest by centuries so I hope he's not acting as if it's a thing the empire brought there when between greek merchants and Carthage it was already there. The romans wanted Gaul because of the Garonne wine trade among other sources of cold hard cash which Caesar was in desperate need of.

quote:

Ironically, if there were to be a university created in Quebec to operate in an aboriginal language, Quebec's retarded language laws would allow for students to take their examinations in French

As demonstrated by the fact that McGill, Concordia and Bishop are now forced to operate in French.

Even within the french system, at least as far as cegep since I went to english unis, you take 2L exams in the language that's being taught, and nobody's going to change that outside your fantasies.

# ? Mar 3, 2016 03:18

blah_blah: Apr 15, 2006

THC posted:

It's an insignificant expense in the grand scheme and it has zero downside.

There is definitely not 'zero downside' to having people remain ignorant of modern science or medicine in the long run (in the same way that there are real longterm costs to government-covered acupuncture, chiropractic, naturopathy,...).

# ? Mar 3, 2016 03:20

Frosted Flake: Sep 13, 2011; Semper Shitpost Ubique

Agnosticnixie posted:

The hellenistic push in Gaul predates the roman conquest by centuries so I hope he's not acting as if it's a thing the empire brought there when between greek merchants and Carthage it was already there. The romans wanted Gaul because of the Garonne wine trade among other sources of cold hard cash which Caesar was in desperate need of.

No, he gives credit to the extensive trade networks that brought Lapis lazuli from Afghanistan to pharaonic Egypt for example. Greek market systems and Roman patronage linked it all together more coherently than it could be before and concentrated the wealth in fewer hands. This also allowed for lucrative tax farming, and that taxation in turn funded military expansion, which brought in new markets, which created new opportunities for tax farmers, and on and on.

e: I know that gets dangerously close to Military Industrial Complex talk, but it makes sense in context. One of the driving factors in the "accidental empire" theory.

Frosted Flake fucked around with this message at 03:27 on Mar 3, 2016

# ? Mar 3, 2016 03:24

PT6A: Jan 5, 2006; Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

Agnosticnixie posted:

As demonstrated by the fact that McGill, Concordia and Bishop are now forced to operate in French.

Well... yes, partially. I went to McGill. We were allowed to write exams in French if we chose. It's a loving retarded policy. That's exactly what I was talking about.

# ? Mar 3, 2016 03:27

PT6A: Jan 5, 2006; Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

blah_blah posted:

There is definitely not 'zero downside' to having people remain ignorant of modern science or medicine in the long run (in the same way that there are real longterm costs to government-covered acupuncture, chiropractic, naturopathy,...).

But since it's nonsense that native people believe, instead of EVIL COLONIALISTS, we must indulge it!

# ? Mar 3, 2016 03:29

Risky Bisquick: Jan 18, 2008; PLEASE LET ME WRITE YOUR VICTIM IMPACT STATEMENT SO I CAN FURTHER DEMONSTRATE THE CALAMITY THAT IS OUR JUSTICE SYSTEM.; Buglord

Rob Ford health update: more aggressive tumours, :airquote:

not dying

( seeking any possible experimental treatment)

# ? Mar 3, 2016 03:32

Kafka Esq.: Jan 1, 2005; "If you ever even think about calling me anything but 'The Crab' I will go so fucking crab on your ass you won't even see what crab'd your crab" -The Crab(TM)

jm20 posted:

Rob Ford health update: more aggressive tumours, not dying ( seeking any possible experimental treatment)

*goes to Twitter to recommend cleansing orange juice and sweat lodges, only*

# ? Mar 3, 2016 03:38

Geoid: Oct 18, 2005; Just Add Water

If anyone wants to discuss Canadian Politics, the Manitoba Liberal party is entirely incapable of vetting candidates:

CBC posted:

One post from Hall's Twitter account, dated Aug. 17, 2012, asks, "If a whore screams in the bedroom and no one is around to hear it, is she really a whore?"
Another tweet from May 24, 2011, states, "Killin' them with kindness doesn't work if they're born bitches." Critics also pointed to 7 Deadly Women, a novel Hall wrote in 2011.
In a YouTube video promoting the book, the main character describes "seven types of women that I have found to have taken control of my story," including "the slut," the "good girl," "the virgin" and "the crazy bitch." In the novel, he compares explicit sex acts by women to driving a race car.

. . .
"I have countless friends that are women � my girlfriend, my mother, my sister, my grandmas who are no longer with me � and I am not by any means sexist," he said.

# ? Mar 3, 2016 03:38

Baronjutter: Dec 31, 2007; "Tiny Trains"

I have females in my family, some are dead, I can not be sexist.

# ? Mar 3, 2016 03:40

Jordan7hm: Feb 17, 2011; Lipstick Apathy

Geoid posted:

If anyone wants to discuss Canadian Politics, ~~the Manitoba Liberal party is~~ all political parties are entirely incapable of vetting candidates:[/url]

# ? Mar 3, 2016 03:41

Postess with the Mostest: Apr 4, 2007; Arabian nights
'neath Arabian moons
A fool off his guard
could fall and fall hard
out there on the dunes

Geoid posted:

If anyone wants to discuss Canadian Politics, the Manitoba Liberal party is entirely incapable of vetting candidates:

The fun bit is that vetting is the problem, we've been governed by these people forever it's just easier to expose them

# ? Mar 3, 2016 03:45

Geoid: Oct 18, 2005; Just Add Water

Baronjutter posted:

I have females in my family, some are dead, I can not be sexist.

It is unclear whether any sexist indeed had a mother or grandma.

# ? Mar 3, 2016 03:49

Juul-Whip: Mar 10, 2008

blah_blah posted:

There is definitely not 'zero downside' to having people remain ignorant of modern science or medicine in the long run (in the same way that there are real longterm costs to government-covered acupuncture, chiropractic, naturopathy,...).

PT6A posted:

But since it's nonsense that native people believe, instead of EVIL COLONIALISTS, we must indulge it!

So when my friend's dad was intubated and receiving intravenous drugs, on his deathbed, you're saying his family was being ignorant of medical science when they brought smudge sticks and sang traditional songs? Maybe the hospital should get rid of the smudging space they opened, after all it's a waste of valuable resources and it just encourages superstitious practices. Bunch of nonsense that has no place in a hospital!

# ? Mar 3, 2016 04:32

Postess with the Mostest: Apr 4, 2007; Arabian nights
'neath Arabian moons
A fool off his guard
could fall and fall hard
out there on the dunes

THC posted:

So when my friend's dad was intubated and receiving intravenous drugs, on his deathbed, you're saying his family was being ignorant of medical science when they brought smudge sticks and sang traditional songs? Maybe the hospital should close the smudging room, after all it's a waste of valuable resources and it just encourages superstitious practices. Bunch of nonsense that has no place in a hospital!

So there's no law against that now eh? Seems reasonable

# ? Mar 3, 2016 04:38

namaste friends: Sep 18, 2004; by Smythe

You can hook up a loving car battery to him and try to reanimate his rear end and I wouldn't give a gently caress as long as I didn't have to pay a loving cent for it

# ? Mar 3, 2016 04:42

Geoid: Oct 18, 2005; Just Add Water

THC posted:

So when my friend's dad was intubated and receiving intravenous drugs, on his deathbed, you're saying his family was being ignorant of medical science when they brought smudge sticks and sang traditional songs? Maybe the hospital should get rid of the smudging space they opened, after all it's a waste of valuable resources and it just encourages superstitious practices. Bunch of nonsense that has no place in a hospital!

There's definitely a place for spirituality in the health system, or at least to have some humanity in the whole process. I agree it's necessary and I'm the classic atheist/secular type, just grown up from my teenage years unlike some people around here. Despite CI's anti-social pronouncements, I'm totally ok with open non-denominational prayer/meditation spaces in hospitals to help the healing and grieving process.

# ? Mar 3, 2016 04:52

Juul-Whip: Mar 10, 2008

Ikantski posted:

So there's no law against that now eh? Seems reasonable

Not every hospital is as awesome as the ones we have here in Vancouver. I would fully support government funding to universalize ideas like the All-Nations Sacred Space at SPH. It would be a negligible item on the budget and it would go a long way to making some people more comfortable when they do access the healthcare system. In fact, it would make people MORE likely to access medical care in the first place, when they feel their culture is welcome in hospitals. As long as it doesn't get in the way of the healthcare team doing their jobs, I don't see a problem.

# ? Mar 3, 2016 04:54

cougar cub: Jun 28, 2004

I'd rather just let my kid die of leukemia

# ? Mar 3, 2016 04:58

Juul-Whip: Mar 10, 2008

Geoid posted:

There's definitely a place for spirituality in the health system, or at least to have some humanity in the whole process. I agree it's necessary and I'm the classic atheist/secular type, just grown up from my teenage years unlike some people around here. Despite CI's anti-social pronouncements, I'm totally ok with open non-denominational prayer/meditation spaces in hospitals to help the healing and grieving process.

I stopped identifying as atheist because of this loving crap. The whole atheist "movement" is just old-school cultural chauvinism with a fresh coat of lily-white paint.

# ? Mar 3, 2016 05:00

Geoid: Oct 18, 2005; Just Add Water

THC posted:

I stopped identifying as atheist because of this loving crap. The whole atheist "movement" is just old-school cultural chauvinism with a fresh coat of lily-white paint.

Yep, the whole movement is full of garbage people with terrible views. Nice to hang out with elderly Unitarians though.

# ? Mar 3, 2016 05:21

Juul-Whip: Mar 10, 2008

I knew I'd made the right decision when Dorkins started palling around with gamergaters and Harris was like, "all religion is bad BUT ESPECIALLY ISLAM, THEYRE CRAZY, WE GOTTA STOP EM"

# ? Mar 3, 2016 05:24

Baronjutter: Dec 31, 2007; "Tiny Trains"

This feminist said all sex is rape so now I'm totally not a feminist anymore. Not because my ideology or ethics have changed in any way, I'm just super sensitive about embarrassing people sharing the same broad labels as me.

# ? Mar 3, 2016 05:28

Frosted Flake: Sep 13, 2011; Semper Shitpost Ubique

THC posted:

In fact, it would make people MORE likely to access medical care in the first place, when they feel their culture is welcome in hospitals.

As opposed to...? Turning down medical care if it doesn't cater to them?

# ? Mar 3, 2016 05:29

JawKnee: Mar 24, 2007; You'll take the ride to leave this town along that yellow line

THC posted:

I knew I'd made the right decision when Dorkins started palling around with gamergaters and Harris was like, "all religion is bad BUT ESPECIALLY ISLAM, THEYRE CRAZY, WE GOTTA STOP EM"

# ? Mar 3, 2016 05:37

Juul-Whip: Mar 10, 2008

Frosted Flake posted:

As opposed to...? Turning down medical care if it doesn't cater to them?

As opposed to not going to hospital because they perceive it as a place where they and their culture are unwelcome and disdained.

Baronjutter posted:

This feminist said all sex is rape so now I'm totally not a feminist anymore. Not because my ideology or ethics have changed in any way, I'm just super sensitive about embarrassing people sharing the same broad labels as me.

All sex is rape though :colbert:

Juul-Whip fucked around with this message at 05:50 on Mar 3, 2016

# ? Mar 3, 2016 05:41

JawKnee: Mar 24, 2007; You'll take the ride to leave this town along that yellow line

Baronjutter posted:

This feminist said all sex is rape so now I'm totally not a feminist anymore. Not because my ideology or ethics have changed in any way, I'm just super sensitive about embarrassing people sharing the same broad labels as me.

it's interesting that you put forward the kind of view that only someone who fundamentally misunderstood Dworkin would as an argument against disdaining the populist internet athiest type, when the overlap between people who unironically support that view, and fedora sporting atheists is incredibly wide

# ? Mar 3, 2016 05:43

Baronjutter: Dec 31, 2007; "Tiny Trains"

Any debate or derail on "atheism" is always stupid, but I've always thought if you don't believe in god(s) you're an atheist and there's nothing more to it, even if some other people who fit that same label are really really loving stupid. I don't see how anyone in this thread could possibly label them selves as leftist or progressive or even socialist after some of the incredibly stupid things people who also label them selves those things have said or done. drat, my campus socialist group said something really dumb and wrong about corporate GMO's, and a socialist on reddit mentioned the friend zone, guess I gotta stop calling my self a socialist. I mean I'm fine with people calling them selves what ever what ever they want, I just think it's silly some silly old racist scientist and some people on reddit is enough to shame people out of using a fairly neutral and accurate term.

Baronjutter fucked around with this message at 06:03 on Mar 3, 2016

# ? Mar 3, 2016 05:59

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# ? May 14, 2024 14:50

Frosted Flake: Sep 13, 2011; Semper Shitpost Ubique

THC posted:

As opposed to not going to hospital because they perceive it as a place where they and their culture are unwelcome and disdained.

This is the same kind of thinking that lead to two girls dying of cancer because their parents felt their culture wasn't being respected. At some point you have to put your health, and that of your relatives first.

# ? Mar 3, 2016 06:00

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