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Rakthar posted:There is a difference between 40 units, 30 units, and 20 units, yeah? Like, too much unit bloat can be bad, but not enough units can be bad too? Or you can't follow that reasoning? Dude in that video you posted like 15 of the roman units are all the same thing. You don't need 15 variations on the same drat unit.
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Mar 3, 2016 20:25
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Still better than no knights. Who cares? There's literally 18 units in the entire Empire roster who cares if they add all the units from TT? More is better. Can't believe people would complain about actually adding more content. Its also not like each Knightly Order you know has different strengths and weaknesses and thus are used in different ways...
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Mar 3, 2016 20:26
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Phi230 posted:For example specifically The Empire has none of the Knightly Orders which are incredibly badass. No Order of The Blazing Sun, Knights Encarmine, or Knights of Morr Warhammer itself is very guilty of having the same sort of unit variety mentioned above for Rome 2. All the Knightly Orders function in similar if not identical roles on the table - they're distinct primarily because of (awesome) lore and to provide minute mechanical differences, as well as aesthetically pleasing alternatives. Not to say Warhammer lacked true unit variety, because most every army had well over a dozen distinct unit types even when you take away the "functionally identical variants" of many units. Having a tantrum about faithfulness to the original fiction when it a Games Workshop game we're talking about is a joke. Games workshop isn't even true to their own fiction. To me, what we've seen so far shows fairly samey army compositions at low levels with increasing unit variety as you get later in the campaign, up to the sort of diversity you see in the Blackfire Pass preview which is great! That's pretty bog standard RTS fare.
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Mar 3, 2016 20:26
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Less units is way better, I'm glad CA is going that way with Total Warhammer
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Mar 3, 2016 20:28
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I don't care if units are functionally similar. Its still different units. All I'm asking for is what we get with TT. Before they killed the TT.
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Mar 3, 2016 20:29
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frajaq posted:Less units is way better, I'm glad CA is going that way with Total Warhammer Yea I can't wait for the next TW game where every faction has the same 5 units.
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Mar 3, 2016 20:30
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Phi230 posted:For example specifically The Empire has none of the Knightly Orders which are incredibly badass. No Order of The Blazing Sun, Knights Encarmine, or Knights of Morr The orders have always been more about fluff and modelling possibilities rather than having their own special rules and having their own niche in the army roster. In ttabletop Knightly Orders never had distinctive special rules (except for the White Wolf knights) until last edition, and there was only like three varieties with small differences.
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Mar 3, 2016 20:30
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Phi230 posted:I don't care if units are functionally similar. Its still different units. They aren't different units! it's all the same if they do the same job and have similair stats. Who cares about not having 5 different types of cav? YOU HAVE TANKS!! and flying griffons and stuff.
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Mar 3, 2016 20:32
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It's such a weird thing to go "Hey just so you know there's way way way less units in this one compared to previous, just so ya know, could be fine could be dumb" and watch people confidently assert how it will impact the game (like make it better). For those that wanted to know there's less units, there you go. And for those that are confident that 3 dudes is all you need, well you should be very excited about your prospects.
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Mar 3, 2016 20:32
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This thread suddenly took a turn for the hilarious. I guess some people have literally no idea that games don't just pop into existence exactly as the single entity known as CA decided at the outset.
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Mar 3, 2016 20:33
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2 SPOOKY posted:
Sorry, I should've specified: it's not that Dwarfs can't deal with cavalry, it's just they deal with it the same way as everything else  . My thought is just that you're never going to hunt down cavalry as dwarfs, and while you can eat charge after charge you don't have anything keeping the enemy from charging you again and again like pikes can. Especially with TW's unit weight on charges. Your Irondrakes may have a BFG and more armor than a Tiger II, but none of may mean anything if a Brettonian knight charge has knocked him flat on his rear end.
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Mar 3, 2016 20:33
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hemale in pain posted:i dont think the game needs like 5 units of different types of knights If you watch the Empire Campaign Video you'll see some of the garrisons include "Empire Knights" (Separate from Reiksguard) anyway, so it's not like we're even missing anything except color schemes. I mean, lets be real. The Empire has Halberds, Crossbows, Muskets, Greatswords, Sword and Shields, Pikes, Spear and Shields, Heavy Cav, Heavier Cav, Monster Cav,, Pistol Cav, Machine gun Cav, Grenade Launcher Cav, Mortars, Cannons, loving Magic Laser Cannons, Rocket Batteries, Steam Powered Tanks, like 5 types of Wizards, Warrior Priests, and Witch Hunters. The Empire lineup in this game is 5000 times more awesome and diverse than any faction in any TW game ever made, and they're the boring faction in this game.
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Mar 3, 2016 20:34
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madmac posted:If you watch the Empire Campaign Video you'll see some of the garrisons include "Empire Knights" (Separate from Reiksguard) anyway, so it's not like we're even missing anything except color schemes. Still not as diverse and as filled out as tabletop which is my point. I know its CA and they're gonna fleece us with DLC and use more units as a gimmick to buy the next 2 Warhammer games. Maybe in 5 years after Warhammer 3 comes out, and its $100 worth of DLC for it, will we have a complete roster for any given faction.
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Mar 3, 2016 20:38
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Phi230 posted:Yea I can't wait for the next TW game where every faction has the same 5 units. No really, we don't need the devs wasting time and resources on five different functionally identical Knightly Orders.
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Mar 3, 2016 20:40
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Phi230 posted:Still not as diverse and as filled out as tabletop which is my point. I know its CA and they're gonna fleece us with DLC and use more units as a gimmick to buy the next 2 Warhammer games. Well.. that's undoubtedly true. I'm cynical enough to believe they'll release a bunch of identical units which look a bit different and call it variety but I won't be buying it 
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Mar 3, 2016 20:44
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Angry Lobster posted:The orders have always been more about fluff and modelling possibilities rather than having their own special rules and having their own niche in the army roster. In ttabletop Knightly Orders never had distinctive special rules (except for the White Wolf knights) until last edition, and there was only like three varieties with small differences. I think way back when, there was a lot more distinctiveness between Imperial Knightly orders (I recall one having access to pistols, which made them hardier, more expensive Outriders), but yeah, they homogenized them as time went on- I wasn't even aware they had separated them again into varieties. In any case, all that really differs between Knightly Orders are their colours. The Empire's more oriented towards infantry in any case. If anything, it's the tabletop that could use some crust cut out of it. Phi230 posted:Still not as diverse and as filled out as tabletop which is my point. And how many of those diverse units would you play with on the tabletop? I can count on the fingers of a blind butcher's hand the amount of times I've used my Baneblade in 40K, for example, and I doubt anyone running the Royal Brettonian Air Force army list is going to have a lot of friends for very long. The unit variety we've seen so far is fine, with a large variety of tactics to accomodate them, and complaining about not having the Order of Sigmar's Phallic Symbols is nitpicking at best
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Mar 3, 2016 20:45
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Captain Oblivious posted:No really, we don't need the devs wasting time and resources on five different functionally identical Knightly Orders. This is correct, and having five different Knightly Orders that have the same stats is mechanically inferior to just having one. You can't merge different units, they have to be the same. By the way, Phi's claim that the tabletop has all these different orders is bullshit. I have the Empire army book, it has one entry for Knightly Orders. You can paint them however the gently caress you want, but they are still the same unit give or take an Inner Circle upgrade which is distinct from their order. Actual list of Units We Aren't Getting from the Empire: Archers (which are poo poo, and I have only seen used once to terrible effect), Militia (which are poo poo, and I have never seen used a single time), Huntsmen (Which are really just Archers), Celestial Hurricanum? (This isn't listed on the roster site, but we know that isn't actually complete, as they have since added Knights). That's it. Two varieties of archer with basically Guerrilla Deployment or not, a lovely light infantry unit you would never use, and a second flavor of magic platform thing. I cannot stress enough how terrible Militia are, and I am glad they aren't in this game.
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Mar 3, 2016 20:52
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Angry Lobster posted:The orders have always been more about fluff and modelling possibilities rather than having their own special rules and having their own niche in the army roster. In ttabletop Knightly Orders never had distinctive special rules (except for the White Wolf knights) until last edition, and there was only like three varieties with small differences. DLC opportunity with lead-in video showing the trials each of the Knights has to go through to officially join each groups tanks. Hooray.
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Mar 3, 2016 20:53
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Kaza42 posted:By the way, Phi's claim that the tabletop has all these different orders is bullshit. I have the Empire army book, it has one entry for Knightly Orders. You can paint them however the gently caress you want, but they are still the same unit give or take an Inner Circle upgrade which is distinct from their order. I thought they were split between Knights of the White Wolf, who all wield Great Weapons, and everyone else (e.g. the usual shields and lance setup)?
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Mar 3, 2016 20:57
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There is enough variety. I am happy that each of my choices in the army will be meaningful and I won't have to think about hiring the grunts with +5 armour vs for grunts with +5 attack value. I love Shogun 2 for that since it helped me make balanced armies rather than Rome 2 where everything was the same in all by name.
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Mar 3, 2016 21:00
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CommissarMega posted:I thought they were split between Knights of the White Wolf, who all wield Great Weapons, and everyone else (e.g. the usual shields and lance setup)? Knights can swap out their lance+shield for great weapons, but it's not tied to a specific order or anything. Just an option they have.
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Mar 3, 2016 21:00
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Kaza42 posted:Knights can swap out their lance+shield for great weapons, but it's not tied to a specific order or anything. Just an option they have. Yeah, I guess that was what I was misremembering, derp. In any case, there seems to be more than enough variety to allow a wide array of tactics, which is all that really matters. True, the argument can be made that without fluff backing the armies can feel a little samey, but I think having steam tanks and demigryph-riding knights charging slavering mutated monstrosities and drugged up goblins swinging huge iron balls would help mitigate such feelings a little.
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Mar 3, 2016 21:09
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If they don't bring back the Avatar system but with some modifications and a general for each army then they are missing a grand opportunity for multiplayer in this game.
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Mar 3, 2016 21:14
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Kaza42 posted:Knights can swap out their lance+shield for great weapons, but it's not tied to a specific order or anything. Just an option they have. From 7th edition onward, all knightly orders occupy the same army roster entry (with one exception) as a basic unit, you can change their lance and shield for a two-handed hammer (great weapon), which in the fluff are the white wolf (they were loving great in 6th edition). The only other option in 8th edition are the Reiksguard, which are basically inner circle knights with the stubborn rule and counts as a special unit. And Empire is one, if not the most, diverse armies in the entire game, they have pretty much everythin. Wait until we have an army with a less broad array of options like Brettonia.
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Mar 3, 2016 21:17
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Knightly orders, flagellants and free companies/archers would make more sense in the campaign if they worked like mercenaries - they're all independent actors that an elector count might be able to drum up when he needs them to pad out his amies. Unlike things like the state troops and artillery, which are standig forces specifically created and maintained by the elector counts. (And the Reiksguard not having that independence liek the other orders because they're the Emperor's Own.)
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Mar 3, 2016 21:18
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CommissarMega posted:Yeah, I guess that was what I was misremembering, derp. In any case, there seems to be more than enough variety to allow a wide array of tactics, which is all that really matters. True, the argument can be made that without fluff backing the armies can feel a little samey, but I think having steam tanks and demigryph-riding knights charging slavering mutated monstrosities and drugged up goblins swinging huge iron balls would help mitigate such feelings a little. I'd much rather have the extra animation sets needed to make the second half of the post happen than five colors of unit++, that's for sure. But apparently wanting as many distinct units as possible means that I want three units per faction because phi is literally incapable of having good opinions about total war games.
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Mar 3, 2016 21:19
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CommissarMega posted:Yeah, I guess that was what I was misremembering, derp. I think White Wolves were a separate unit in the older books, before they rolled them into one unit. They did a lot of that with the later editions.
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Mar 3, 2016 21:24
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It's CA, we'll probably get a knightly orders unit pack for DLC. If you don't think they'll save some units for purely unit pack DLC, you crazy. I am also crazy, because I will buy them all.
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Mar 3, 2016 21:40
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I can't get over reading some dude cry Internet tears because this game doesn't have Knights of Morr. It has Empire Knights and amazing looking Demigryph Knights, but not Knights of Morr, and that's just the worst! Lmao, that's just  as hell
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Mar 3, 2016 21:44
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If you build your forces to be anything but functionally useless, but lore accurate, masses of many different, but redundant, unit types... we can't be (steam) friends 
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Mar 3, 2016 21:47
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hemale in pain posted:i dont think the game needs like 5 units of different types of knights Well they are putting Bretonia in it, and Bretonia is basically "5 units of different types of knights" the faction.
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Mar 3, 2016 21:49
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The Empire's roster is already way more diverse than any of the factions in RTW2 were. Again there's pretty much universal agreement that the best TW roster was Shogun because it had a smaller but balanced roster where every unit had a distinct purpose and set of advantages/disadvantages.
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Mar 3, 2016 21:53
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I dont know posted:Well they are putting Bretonia in it, and Bretonia is basically "5 units of different types of knights" the faction. The only real redundancy is Knights Errant and Knights of the Realm, and they could probably be differentiated better in this game than they could on the tabletop. Knights Errant, mounted Knights with lances and shields, worst stats of proper Knights Knights of the Realm, same better stats Questing Knights, better stats, swap shields and lances for Great Weapons Pegasus Knights ate just Knights of the Realm on Pegasi Grail Knights, best stats, double the attacks, other rules that won't matter so much in this game.
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Mar 3, 2016 21:53
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Bretonnians are great, however. 5 Knights: Horses That Fly
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Mar 3, 2016 21:56
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It's still KNIGHTS KNIGHTS KNIGHTS though, which doesn't leave much room for tactics other than 'tarpit enemy with peasants, charge, goto 10'. Mind you, I'm a Skaven player, whose tactical acumen amounts to 'is something suffering horribly from Skaven genius? Roll dice until it does', and so I'm aware my opinion might not count for much 
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Mar 3, 2016 21:57
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Wow 200-some-odd posts and its about loving paint schemes on horses. I thought maybe something cool happened.
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Mar 3, 2016 22:06
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CommissarMega posted:It's still KNIGHTS KNIGHTS KNIGHTS though, which doesn't leave much room for tactics other than 'tarpit enemy with peasants, charge, goto 10'. Mind you, I'm a Skaven player, whose tactical acumen amounts to 'is something suffering horribly from Skaven genius? Roll dice until it does', and so I'm aware my opinion might not count for much I mean, there's a reason Bretonnia never had the most players despite being pretty standard Arthurian fantasy fare. Variety isn't their strong suit, but if you loving love knights charging in glorious formation while peasants die by the score, then Bretonnia is your poo poo and it will be your poo poo forever. Not every faction needs to be the Swiss Army knife that the Empire is. Specialization is cool and good.
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Mar 3, 2016 22:07
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albany academy posted:Wow 200-some-odd posts and its about loving paint schemes on horses. I thought maybe something cool happened. We got a dwarf campaign video. Book of Grudges looks incredible, everything we'd hoped it to be. Only thing I'm wary about is the town siege battle screen saying that "When the battle commences, it will take place outside of the settlement". I really hope that doesn't mean that non-walled town sieges are going away. Those were fun.
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Mar 3, 2016 22:08
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CommissarMega posted:It's still KNIGHTS KNIGHTS KNIGHTS though, which doesn't leave much room for tactics other than 'tarpit enemy with peasants, charge, goto 10'. Mind you, I'm a Skaven player, whose tactical acumen amounts to 'is something suffering horribly from Skaven genius? Roll dice until it does', and so I'm aware my opinion might not count for much Their longbowmen are pretty rad.
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Mar 3, 2016 22:16
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Lassitude posted:Their longbowmen are pretty rad. And their rickety trebuchets are also actually one of the better siege weapons around.
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Mar 3, 2016 22:18
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