Auspol March: Trump for Prime Minister, Clive Palmer for Deputy

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Auspol March: Trump for Prime Minister, Clive Palmer for Deputy

«‹›79 »

Solemn Sloth: Jul 11, 2015; Baby you can shout at me,
But you can't need my eyes.

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/flyers-claiming-holocaust-was-a-fraud-found-at-melbourne-uni-20160303-gnabwg.html

I see the young libs have been busy again

# ? Mar 4, 2016 05:31

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? Jun 3, 2024 18:08

open24hours: Jan 7, 2001

Poor workers and their expensive cigs. Time for smoking to become a pastime of the cool, sophisticated elite. Maybe holders will come back into style.

# ? Mar 4, 2016 05:32

NPR Journalizard: Feb 14, 2008

SynthOrange posted:

he'll be back in a few weeks.

shush let me enjoy my schadenfreude

# ? Mar 4, 2016 05:39

hooman: Oct 11, 2007; This guy seems legit.; Fun Shoe

I like them banging on about increasing taxes when they're the ones who've spent the entirety of this term increasing taxes.

*cough temporary budget repair levy cough*

# ? Mar 4, 2016 05:41

Cartoon: Jun 20, 2008; poop

Gorilla Salad posted:

Ever tried to help someone who's dying only to be assaulted and have your life threatened?

My sister's an ambulance officer and even in quiet country Victoria where she works half the time, they have houses and entire streets they're told to never go down unescorted for their own safety.

The fuckup is from the higher-ups (no surprise there, Ambulance Victoria is utterly loving incompetent and I have no reason to suspect the other states are any better) not being able to coordinate calling the police. High risk areas are all flagged and a call should have gone out automatically to the police the second the ambulance was sent the job.

If only those people hadn't made a lifestyle choice to live in that area.

It is a real problem (Emergency services workers getting assaulted) but the current solutions aren't working AND the real solution is to prevent the formation of ghettos in the first place. I live in an area where there are a number of 'no go' zones and nobody is doing anything to fix the causes of the problem.

Your sister would also loath the general standard of the local drivers who persitently block ambulances on lights and sirens :psyduck:

# ? Mar 4, 2016 05:42

I would blow Dane Cook: Dec 26, 2008

quote:

If intelligence was taxed, he would be negatively geared

# ? Mar 4, 2016 05:47

gay picnic defence: Oct 5, 2009; I'M CONCERNED ABOUT A NUMBER OF THINGS

katlington posted:

Druggo? Jesus christ grandpa

wadiyatalkinabeet?

# ? Mar 4, 2016 05:49

Lizard Combatant: Sep 29, 2010; I have some notes.

Amoeba102 posted:

I hate that I have to smoke for work =(

Whah? Are you a rhesus macaque posting from some tobacco lab?

# ? Mar 4, 2016 05:50

thatbastardken: Apr 23, 2010; A contract signed by a minor is not binding!

Lizard Combatant posted:

Whah? Are you a rhesus macaque posting from some tobacco lab?

no mate it's mandatory for all employees to smoke to relieve the stress of being productive, a dole-bludging inner city elitist like you wouldn't understand. go sip a latte off your ivory tower, you reffo.

# ? Mar 4, 2016 06:01

Amoeba102: Jan 22, 2010

Yeah, that's why a tax on cigarettes is a tax on workers.

# ? Mar 4, 2016 06:04

x1o: Aug 5, 2005; My focus is UNPARALLELED!

Solemn Sloth posted:

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/flyers-claiming-holocaust-was-a-fraud-found-at-melbourne-uni-20160303-gnabwg.html

I see the young libs have been busy again

Unless the young libs are into chemtrails I doubt it was them. A similar flyer was dropped at the Uni I work at and after talking about how the holocaust was a sham, it said to go to their chemtrails site for more info.

# ? Mar 4, 2016 06:19

Doctor Spaceman: Jul 6, 2010; "Everyone's entitled to their point of view, but that's seriously a weird one."

Doctor Spaceman posted:

STV / Hare-Clark is a really good system, if a little complex on the backend. I'll do a write-up of it some time in the next few days unless someone else (eg QM) does one first.

Since Senate Reform has been in the news recently, let's have a look at how Hare-Clark votes (also known as Single Transferable Vote or STV ballots) are counted. I'll try and keep it a relatively general explanation while still mentioning the specifics used in the Senate. There are a lot of fiddly details with STV, and it's easy to get bogged down in them.

We'll start with a refresher on the much simpler preferential voting (also known as Instant-Runoff Voting, or IRV), familiar to everyone as the system used in the House of Representatives and many other lower houses.

How does preferential voting work?
Voters rank candidates in order of preference. There is generally the requirement for all candidates to receive a preference, but Optional Preferential Voting (OPV) exists in some areas.

The count proceeds as follows:

The candidate with the lowest number of preferences is excluded
Their ballots are distributed according to the next preference
- If OPV is used, and the voter has expressed no further preferences, the ballot is exhausted and no longer contributes to the count
This continues until one candidate has more than 50% of the preferences

It's got flaws (it is literally mathematically impossible for a voting system not to), but it's pretty good.

How could it be improved? For starters, if a Labor candidate wins 60-40% against their Liberal opponent then 40% of the electorate still got a candidate they didn't like. There's not much you can do about that if you only elect one person, but what if you could elect more? 2 Labor candidates and 1 Liberal might more accurately reflect the views of that electorate.

How does STV voting work?
Since we are trying to elect candidates who represent only portions of the electorate, it makes sense to reduce the number of preferences candidates require to be elected. This number is called the quota, and is best expressed as a fraction of the total votes. The common approach is to set the quota at 1/(number of positions + 1). For a normal Senate election with 6 senators the quota 1/7th of the vote (around 14%), and for a DD election (with 12 senators) the quota is 1/13 (around 8%).

In fact, preferential voting is STV where you are trying to elect only one candidate (and hence the quota is 1/(1+1) = 50%).

This leads to a problem: once a candidate is elected, what should be done with their ballots? It's easy to imagine a system where a candidate receives far more than a quota, but you can't elect the same person twice (as much as Nick Xenophon would like). There are multiple options for what to do with these surplus votes, with the common theme being that winning candidate's ballots are less significant, either because only some are reallocated or (as in the Senate) because the reallocated ballots are weighed to reduce their value. In the event that a ballot would be reallocated to another successful candidate it's easiest just to ignore that and continue looking at lower preferences (as happens for the Senate), but other options exist.

This process continues until none of the remaining candidates have more than a quota. The next step is to start excluding candidates, and this follows broadly the same pattern as for the Reps: the least popular candidate is excluded, and their ballots are reallocated according to their next preference.

So here's how it works:

Candidates with more than the quota are elected
Their ballots are redistributed
The candidate with the lowest number of preferences is excluded
Their ballots are distributed according to the next preference
The procedure restarts unless all positions are filled

This sounds complex!
From a counting perspective, it is. It's much better handled by computers. Some of the variants exist to make things easier by hand (at the cost of some randomness or the theoretical possibility of strategic voting), while others allow or require recounting at basically every step (which is impractical unless done electronically).

From the point of view of a voter, it isn't. You rank your preferences, then the system takes over. Popular people get elected, unpopular ones get excluded, less popular ones get elected, less unpopular ones get excluded, etc, etc.

So how does optional preferential voting work?
Exhausted ballots drop out of the count. In some systems (eg Tasmania) this means that the final candidate(s) will be elected with less than a quota. Other systems dynamically update the quota to reflect exhausted votes (and other factors).

What are Group Voting Tickets?
Group Voting Tickets (GVT) are a complete list of preferences as determined by a political party. Currently a voter who votes 1 Above the Line (AtL) is agreeing to distribute their preferences according to the wishes of that party.

What do the proposed changes mean?
The big change is replacing GVTs with OPV. Your vote will go to a party only if you explicitly vote for them; there is no potential for you to vote for the Anti-Skub Party but inadvertently elect the Pro-Skub Party. Parties that exist to make preference deals will no longer exist, and parties that get elected based only on preference deals will no longer get elected.

The other voting change is that Below the Line voting is now OPV, which means it's no longer a ridiculous counting exercise. AtL voting is pretty much redundant now, but it's sticking around because of political inertia.

The changes to party registration and ballot paper logos don't affect voting, but like the AtL changes are designed to make voters more aware of where their votes are going, and more able to decide where they should go.

What about a system like MMP or Party Lists?
You tell me. I'm not familiar enough with them to do a write-up.

What about First-Past-the-Post?
:frogout:

What about <issue>?
Ask away.

You got something wrong
It happens. Give me a yell and I'll fix it.

Doctor Spaceman fucked around with this message at 07:11 on Mar 4, 2016

# ? Mar 4, 2016 06:32

Solemn Sloth: Jul 11, 2015; Baby you can shout at me,
But you can't need my eyes.

TheHeadSage posted:

Unless the young libs are into chemtrails I doubt it was them. A similar flyer was dropped at the Uni I work at and after talking about how the holocaust was a sham, it said to go to their chemtrails site for more info.

The Liberal Party is a broad church.

# ? Mar 4, 2016 06:33

Endman: May 18, 2010; That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even anime may die

Doctor Spaceman posted:

Great write-up, should be linked in OP imho.

# ? Mar 4, 2016 07:08

Halo14: Sep 11, 2001

Endman posted:

Great write-up, should be linked in OP imho.

Agreed.

# ? Mar 4, 2016 07:12

Zenithe: Feb 25, 2013; _{Ask not to whom the Anidavatar belongs; it belongs to thee.}

Doctor Spaceman posted:

What about First-Past-the-Post?

I'd only heard about this in the context of it being bad, so I googled it.

:stare:

Why anyone thinks this is good and fair is beyond me. It seems entirely indefensible as a concept.

# ? Mar 4, 2016 07:15

Solemn Sloth: Jul 11, 2015; Baby you can shout at me,
But you can't need my eyes.

Zenithe posted:

I'd only heard about this in the context of it being bad, so I googled it.

Why anyone thinks this is good and fair is beyond me. It seems entirely indefensible as a concept.

It's understandable for idiots (the electorate)

# ? Mar 4, 2016 07:24

Endman: May 18, 2010; That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even anime may die

Doesn't the UK still use FPTP?

# ? Mar 4, 2016 07:26

MysticalMachineGun: Apr 5, 2005

Endman posted:

Great write-up, should be linked in OP imho.

Added!

# ? Mar 4, 2016 07:30

Zenithe: Feb 25, 2013; _{Ask not to whom the Anidavatar belongs; it belongs to thee.}

Endman posted:

Doesn't the UK still use FPTP?

Yes, alone with a depressing amount of other nations.

# ? Mar 4, 2016 07:31

Divorced And Curious: Jan 23, 2009; democracy depends on sausage sizzles

Endman posted:

Doesn't the UK still use FPTP?

Also Canada, the US, and (for electorate seats) New Zealand. It's the blurst.

# ? Mar 4, 2016 07:34

Doctor Spaceman: Jul 6, 2010; "Everyone's entitled to their point of view, but that's seriously a weird one."

Endman posted:

Doesn't the UK still use FPTP?

The US, the UK, Canada, India and some other countries do. The UK recently had a referendum about switching to a less poo poo system but it was defeated.

Most of Europe and NZ use other forms of proportional representation (generally with party lists).

Ireland is one of the only other countries that uses STV heavily.

# ? Mar 4, 2016 07:37

Senor Tron: May 26, 2006

With the proposed changes does it actually stop someone potentially getting elected with a tiny fraction of the vote? I'm imagining a situation where the 5 parties that win seats do it on a primary vote only just above that needed for a quota. If you then had 100 parties sharing the last 1/6 of the vote how is it resolved?

# ? Mar 4, 2016 07:50

Lizard Combatant: Sep 29, 2010; I have some notes.

thatbastardken posted:

no mate it's mandatory for all employees to smoke to relieve the stress of being productive, a dole-bludging inner city elitist like you wouldn't understand. go sip a latte off your ivory tower, you reffo.

I didn't have embedded tweets turned on in the Awful App and missed the context. Still, I notice you dodged the question Amoeba102...

# ? Mar 4, 2016 08:41

NPR Journalizard: Feb 14, 2008

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-03-04/country-racing-clubs-chasing-certainty-over-sale-of-tab/7220830

WA R&G minister encouraging people to gamble on the nags.

Truly the second worst state.

# ? Mar 4, 2016 09:23

Doctor Spaceman: Jul 6, 2010; "Everyone's entitled to their point of view, but that's seriously a weird one."

Senor Tron posted:

With the proposed changes does it actually stop someone potentially getting elected with a tiny fraction of the vote?

It doesn't stop it in theory, but it reduces the likelihood it can happen, and means when it does happen it's more a reflection of what the voting public wants.

The elimination of GVTs weakens party control of preferences (it becomes like how-to-vote stuff currently is in the Reps; they can recommend an order but not enforce one), and the introduction of OPV means that most votes will exhaust before having to decide how the various microparties should be ranked. The changes remove the incentive for ~~David Leyonhjelm~~ someone to register multiple parties and funnel preferences around internally, as well as removing lots of bizarre, counterintuitive preference deals. If the election depends on the fact that Party A was preferenced over Party B somewhere in the 80th preferences, it'll be because lots of people decided to vote that way, not because the parties made an agreement.

To take the example of Ricky Muir, what would have happened is that after Jacinta Collins was elected (on count 5) a lot more ballots would have exhausted (rather than flowing through various minor parties to Muir), and the 6th spot would have probably gone to the 3rd Liberal.

quote:

I'm imagining a situation where the 5 parties that win seats do it on a primary vote only just above that needed for a quota. If you then had 100 parties sharing the last 1/6 of the vote how is it resolved?

One of those tiny parties would be elected.

Doctor Spaceman fucked around with this message at 10:04 on Mar 4, 2016

# ? Mar 4, 2016 09:26

Amoeba102: Jan 22, 2010

Lizard Combatant posted:

Still, I notice you dodged the question Amoeba102...

I can only deny the second half of the question. I can neither confirm nor deny the first part.

# ? Mar 4, 2016 09:49

Dude McAwesome: Sep 30, 2004; Still better than a Ponytar

Thanks for that writeup Spaceman. Very concise and very informative.

# ? Mar 4, 2016 11:21

Lid: Feb 18, 2005; And the mercy seat is awaiting,
And I think my head is burning,
And in a way I'm yearning,
To be done with all this measuring of proof.
An eye for an eye
And a tooth for a tooth,
And anyway I told the truth,
And I'm not afraid to die.

Doctor Spaceman posted:

The US, the UK, Canada, India and some other countries do. The UK recently had a referendum about switching to a less poo poo system but it was defeated.

Most of Europe and NZ use other forms of proportional representation (generally with party lists).

Ireland is one of the only other countries that uses STV heavily.

The second greatest moment of John Howard's career, after gun laws, was when he was in the UK in the run up to the voting referendum and his utter disdain and confusion when being interviewed with people saying preferential is a confusing system making people break down in tears.

# ? Mar 4, 2016 11:35

Senor Tron: May 26, 2006

Lid posted:

The second greatest moment of John Howard's career, after gun laws, was when he was in the UK in the run up to the voting referendum and his utter disdain and confusion when being interviewed with people saying preferential is a confusing system making people break down in tears.

John Howard has some abhorrent views and I am ideologically opposed to him in many ways, but most public impressions are that he does genuinely believe in democracy.

Glad he got kicked out, and seeing his reaction to losing his seat was amazing, but also I have to have a little respect for that.

# ? Mar 4, 2016 11:47

Redcordial: Nov 7, 2009; TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP

lol the country is fed up with your safe spaces and trigger warnings you useless special snowflakes, send the sjws to mexico

I had the pleasure of meeting Adam Bandt today at a ribbon cutting ceremony for a new Men's Shed facility where I volunteer. It was really empowering and refreshing to have a short conversation with him about the work I've been doing over the past couple of years.
There were numerous other members of parliament present and it was quite daunting speaking with everyone as the only social worker running the program apart from my boss.

It was a great morning and wasn't something I'd ever experienced, especially with all of the great donations and pledges made by the present members of parliament and various organisations.

# ? Mar 4, 2016 11:50

freebooter: Jul 7, 2009

OK now that I actually have the internet up and running for the first time since coming back to Australia, I have to ask for a decent VPN again. I think there was one that was like $10 a year? They did end up passing metadata retention right?

# ? Mar 4, 2016 12:37

Doctor Spaceman: Jul 6, 2010; "Everyone's entitled to their point of view, but that's seriously a weird one."

Zenithe posted:

I'd only heard about this in the context of it being bad, so I googled it.

Why anyone thinks this is good and fair is beyond me. It seems entirely indefensible as a concept.

It's very simple to explain and count, and that's not a useless advantage. If everyone's broadly happy with any outcome or the actual outcome doesn't matter much, then it's good enough (think of a group of friends picking a movie to watch, and asking for a show of hands). It's also the kind of system you'd develop if you haven't got an understanding of voting theory, possibly because it's the 18th Century.

In the Reps the first preference candidate (who would be elected under FPTP) is the eventual winner about 90% of the time. It's fine as a first approximation, but not as a serious electoral system.

# ? Mar 4, 2016 12:56

Doctor Spaceman: Jul 6, 2010; "Everyone's entitled to their point of view, but that's seriously a weird one."

https://twitter.com/GrogsGamut/status/705689322503049217

# ? Mar 4, 2016 13:03

Cleretic: Feb 3, 2010; Ignore my posts!
I'm aggressively wrong about everything!

freebooter posted:

OK now that I actually have the internet up and running for the first time since coming back to Australia, I have to ask for a decent VPN again. I think there was one that was like $10 a year? They did end up passing metadata retention right?

Last I checked it did pass, but they were so bad about checking and verifying ISP's strategies that next to none of them actually have the retention systems in place.

# ? Mar 4, 2016 13:15

hooman: Oct 11, 2007; This guy seems legit.; Fun Shoe

Doctor Spaceman posted:

https://twitter.com/GrogsGamut/status/705689322503049217

I think the words "Go home Australian Labor Party you are drunk. And pointless. And basically evil." need to be in large letters in a lot more places.

# ? Mar 4, 2016 13:17