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Buttcoin purse posted:Maybe there's no solution and bitcoin is hosed? literally the point of having bitcoin threads
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Mar 5, 2016 13:24
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Harik posted:Bitcoin XT was none of this, with an added dash of "You don't need the block chain, just trust unverifiable information you request from hostile peer2peer nodes". Is the 4000 tons per day figure true? That's like a quarter of a fossil plant's usage, which is absolutely insane given how useless it is.
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Mar 5, 2016 13:33
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Speaking of horrible waste, it's time for a nostalgia trip! http://www.buttcoinfoundation.org/mining-rig-megapost/  It's hard to believe that just 2-3 years ago, ANYONE could mine bitcoins using PC video cards. poo poo, you used to be able to mine them with just your CPU at one point.
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Mar 5, 2016 13:46
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Buttcoin purse posted:bitcoin is hosed Just quoting all the relevant information in the above post.
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Mar 5, 2016 13:53
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Germstore posted:Is the 4000 tons per day figure true? That's like a quarter of a fossil plant's usage, which is absolutely insane given how useless it is. If anything, it's on the low side.
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Mar 5, 2016 14:52
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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Buttcoin purse posted:I don't know what the solution is. Maybe there's no solution and bitcoin is hosed? Whatever happens I'm sure there will be lols. The simple solution is just to ditch the decentralized strategy and just centralize it. Once it's centralized, you don't have to worry about proof of work or rewards. But bitcoiners will never do this, even though it's slowly happening anyway.
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Mar 5, 2016 16:59
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Germstore posted:Is the 4000 tons per day figure true? That's like a quarter of a fossil plant's usage, which is absolutely insane given how useless it is. A study sometime...last year, i think? Found that Bitcoin used as much power as Ireland. The whole country.
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Mar 5, 2016 17:23
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wayne curr posted:Speaking of horrible waste, it's time for a nostalgia trip! I feel like the days of GPU mining were also a golden age of laughs. And it wasn't just the horrific amalgamations of computing hardware in egg crates giving people heat stroke. Libertarians were starting to go whole hog on the "THIS WILL REPLACE ALL OTHER CURRENCIES AND DESTROY THE GOVERNMENT" rhetoric, idiots were predicting $100,000 per bitcoin by the end of 2014, and "bitcoin exchange suddenly closes, keeps all customer deposits" was a weekly occurrence. I miss those days, when the laughchain difficulty was a lot lower Anyone remember that professor who got fired for using a supercomputer to mine like :tenbux: of bitcoins? That was funny. Now the bitcoin community is just sort of slowly devouring itself and that poo poo is just less interesting than dudes jury rigging their house's electrical system in order to have more amperage for the bitcoin mining shed out back. I mean mycrimes.txt might have been the highlight of last year but it was kind of an anomaly
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Mar 5, 2016 17:40
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QuarkJets posted:Now the bitcoin community is just sort of slowly devouring itself Yup. 90% are sitting on their potential billions worth of Ayn Rand Rubles, they want others to go spend theirs, and then complain there is no market or cash flow to stimulate its use.
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Mar 5, 2016 17:55
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COOLGUY TRUE posted:Is there a master list of bitcoin problems / misconceptions / woos that exists somewhere? I'd really like to get very good at dissing bitcoin- i know some people who are ape over it and i don't understand what they think it does they just say these weird phrases that don't seem to reflect the technology at all and think it's inherently some sort of revolutionary thing but i don't see how it could even have any use in the best case scenario Something important to point out is that a line by line doctoral-thesis level of footnotes and citations paper with indisputable, independently verifiable facts disproving every single possible argument for bitcoin will mean precisely zero point dick to the kind of person who gets into bitcoin. It is simply not possible to persuade them with facts, and the huge, huge majority of the time you're not going to persuade them ever, period, with any argument whether ethos, pathos or logos. They cannot possibly give any less of a gently caress about the facts, they're going to get rich because this is the next big thing and you're just too stupid to see that.
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Mar 5, 2016 17:58
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wayne curr posted:Speaking of horrible waste, it's time for a nostalgia trip! This link is such a loving goldmine.
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Mar 5, 2016 17:58
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The most damning thing about Bitcoin is how nobody who uses Bitcoin uses Bitcoin. Don't say Bitcoin, say The Blockchain! But Jesus loving Christ, don't wait for transactions to be written to the Blockchain, just accept zero confirmation transactions, nobody wants to wait 10 minutes! You can buy things for Bitcoin on our site! Just give cash to this company, who will totally give us Bitcoin, except we don't accept Bitcoin, we have them instantly converted to cash. Buy something from this site with your Bitcoin, and then instantly buy back the difference in cash to keep your total balance from changing! This is good for Bitcoin! Come trade Bitcoin on our site! Just deposit them into an account we control, and then we'll just do all the transactions internally rather than using Bitcoin or the Blockchain, because that would never scale for the amount of transactions we're doing.
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Mar 5, 2016 21:01
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At one point someone figured out that like 90% of blockchain transactions were due to gambling sites like SatoshiDice. Literally just people trading bitcoins back and forth with The House until they eventually lose everything
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Mar 5, 2016 21:15
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Crust First posted:The most damning thing about Bitcoin is how nobody who uses Bitcoin uses Bitcoin. "Remember the 10,000 bitcoin pizza? That'll never happen to me, because I will never spend mine under any circumstances."
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Mar 5, 2016 22:53
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Crust First posted:The most damning thing about Bitcoin is how nobody who uses Bitcoin uses Bitcoin. The last item is the most damning. "We have the best security people working on it." "Errr... we have security people working on it." "Uh... we have people working on it." "Ummm... we have people."
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Mar 6, 2016 00:17
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Buttcoin purse posted:Bitcoin is similarly flawed. Satoshi (pbuh) decided that to add a block to the chain, you need to prove that your computer did some work which would take any computer a bit of time to do, so your computer couldn't just spew out blocks constantly (or at least not ones that the rest of the network would accept). That work was some hashing - guessing inputs to a hash function such that the output contains a certain length of bits set to zero. There are two problems here: you get a bunch of bitcoins as a reward for adding a block to the chain - supposedly because you're supporting the network - so people have the incentive to mine just to get those coins even if they don't give a poo poo about the network, and also that work you have to do can be sped up by throwing lots of equipment and electricity at it, so once again if you're richer than all the other people trying to add blocks to the chain, you'll get to do it more of the time. It was also a 'fair' way to distribute the tokens, so anyone could join in the fun. Just leave your computer mining at overnight when you aren't using it, and soon you'll have some bitcoins to play with. Even if all you have is a 5 year old laptop, you could mine some coins.
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Mar 6, 2016 00:36
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Germstore posted:The last item is the most damning. "We have the best security people working on it." "Errr... we have security people working on it." "Uh... we have people working on it." "Ummm... we have people."
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Mar 6, 2016 01:00
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Angela Christine posted:It was also a 'fair' way to distribute the tokens, so anyone could join in the fun. Just leave your computer mining at overnight when you aren't using it, and soon you'll have some bitcoins to play with. Even if all you have is a 5 year old laptop, you could mine some coins. Oh yeah, I forgot about that bit - if you didn't give out bitcoins as rewards, how would anyone get them? I guess Satoshi could have pre-mined them all and then created an exchange to sell them.
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Mar 6, 2016 08:59
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I was listening to Planet Money as I regularly do and whose name should I hear but Roger Ver. http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2016/03/02/468953007/episode-687-buy-this-passport The interview starts at 9:44, though it's a pretty good podcast so it's worth listening to the whole thing. They thankfully do not go into Bitcoin past a mention of what he's famous for, but it was fun to hear some of his weirder opinions from a legitimate NPR interview.
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Mar 6, 2016 09:48
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Germstore posted:Is the 4000 tons per day figure true? That's like a quarter of a fossil plant's usage, which is absolutely insane given how useless it is. No, that's an absolute minimum bound of how much coal it burns. Basically, I took at-their-word the power efficiency of the most efficient ASIC in ghash/sec, then multiplied it by the blockchain.info estimate of ghash/sec on the network. So in order for it to "only" waste that much energy, a bitcoin-oriented business would have to have 100% market share, and not be lying about their specs. I looked up the KWH/pounds of coal from the department of energy, so that assumes a normal efficiency plant and not "who cares" chinese energy company Harik fucked around with this message at 18:55 on Mar 6, 2016 |
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Mar 6, 2016 18:51
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Buttcoin purse posted:Why would I prefer to not store my contract in a filing cabinet and instead store it in a system where someone with power over that system can mess around with it? Well, you see. Lolbertarians in general, and bitcoin Lobertarians in particular, have an ideological opposition to the idea that other parties are trustworthy. So if you and I sign a contract together, and I'm a Lolbertarian, I know that I would try to cheat you, and therefore, I assume you will try to cheat me. And because I am ideologically opposed to the idea that other parties can be trustworthy, the obvious solution to our problem (giving a copy of our contract to a trusted third party for safekeeping) isn't viable. I'm assuming you're going to alter your own contract and forge my signature or something, so when this all winds up in court, it'll be your word against mine and I'll lose. (Nevermind who is running the court, lol.) So, the Lolbertarian solution is to burn 4000 tons of coal per day so that a few tens of thousands of people can constantly perform pointless busywork verifying the existence of a common transactional ledger, and that ledger happens to include a "comments" field on each transaction, and so we can embed our contract into the comments of one or (more likely) a series of transactions, and since the ledger is held by everyone, there's no question of having to trust anyone. This is obviously flawed in several ways. The most obvious flaw is that the transaction ledger is actually controlled by a tiny minority of people: the natural monopolies that develop in this competitive system. But the more fundamental flaw goes back to the one I mentioned before: the allergy Lolbertarians have to the concept of trust. Trust is the foundation of human society. In fact, establishing and reinforcing trusted relationships is an aspect of primate evolution; virtually all primates live in extended family groups, within which each individual establishes a relationship with each other individual. The development of human speech was a massive change in part because it allows humans to negotiate trust relationships without having to engage in 20 minutes of mutual grooming on a weekly basis... if you have to pick lice off of another monkey in order to maintain a trust relationship with them, then your maximum number of trusted relationships tops out at something like 80 individuals. But if you can talk to someone, you can establish trust much more efficiently. You have a shared language, so you have a shared set of beliefs and concepts, and you can use symbolic logic to negotiate those concepts even with a stranger. "I will give you a pile of furs for every bag of flint you bring me" takes a few seconds to discuss. "And my tribemates will not hide in the bushes and murder you when you come alone with your bag of flint" still has to be established, too, but you can say something like "We won't murder you for your flint because then we wouldn't get any more flint... and also, hey, when we meet, I'll show you my hand is empty and you show me your hand is empty and we'll know the other isn't armed. Or if you like, perhaps we can meet on neutral ground? Let's each bring five buddies along." Or even "Hey Stan, how's the wife and kids? Hey, you know Orlaf God of Sunsets, hail Orlaf, eh? You got any flints today? I've got some really great rabbit skins this time." All of human civilization became possible because of the expanding ability of individuals and then groups of humans to establish and maintain trust relationships. Of course, the collapse of trust relationships leads to horrible things like wars, it doesn't work perfectly, but Lolbertarians have focused exclusively on the numerous points of minor failure and have totally failed to recognize the general success rate. If the government fails to do something great sometimes, then all government must be bad! Rugged individualists and Captains of Industry get ahead not by trusting others, but through sheer self-sufficiency and bootstraps. The underlying trust layer of all human society is invisible to them, to the point they deny its existence and/or its necessity. So, Bitcoins, and at another layer, bitcoin contracts, are naturally descended from these basic misunderstandings. The idea that a currency based on anonymity - or just pseudonymity, which as you point out is what they have, even if actual anonymity is what they claim to want - is even desirable, is predicated on the completely crazy idea that anyone can or should try to engage in exchange with a person who is remote, invisible, unnamed, untraceable, and completely unverifiable in any way. Lolbertarians rightfully recognize that such a person will probably try to cheat them, but inccorectly believe that of everyone anyway, so instead, they focus on the futile, impossible goal of creating a technological transaction system that is immune to the other party's attempts to cheat. It's not possible. Trusted intermediaries exist because they offload the burden of establishing trust onto a trust-establishment expert with the resources to more efficiently establish trust. So I can use a credit card at the grocery store because Safeway recognizes that Visa has taken on responsibility for ensuring I'm good for the money, and that Visa has the resources and power to do that better than Safeway can. Safeway can't ever trust Bitcoin or any Bitcoin-like system because that system is designed from the outset to protect my anonymity. Amusingly, Bitcoin fails to do that as you pointed out, but the objective of Lobertarian crypto-financiers (in the sense of crypto-zoologists) is to create a transactional system controlled by nobody and which anyone can use without exposing their identity. It's just never going to work. Blockchain or not, regardless of the technology used, the basic requirement of a chain of trust is always going to be there. It's the only way an individual can be protected from the gang of spearmen in the bushes waiting to take his sack of flints as soon as he shows up at the trading spot. You have to either trust the other guy, or trust your own gang of spearmen, or trust a third party whose spearmen are present to watch over the proceedings and make sure there's no funny business. As an aside, I'm using "Lolbertarian" because I know there exists actual Libertarians who don't hold the beliefs I described. I've met two of them. I still disagree with many of the things they believe and the positions they take, but neither of my two Libertarian friends think Bitcoin is anything but a joke, and neither of them are hoping to replace human trust systems with anonymity.
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Mar 6, 2016 20:29
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Hey I know we're supposed to be jaded and dicks to each other nonstop but that was a really good effort post, thanks.
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Mar 6, 2016 20:34
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Harik posted:Bitcoin pollution maths Also excellent effort post Leperflesh
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Mar 6, 2016 20:51
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KnifeWrench posted:"Remember the 10,000 bitcoin pizza? That'll never happen to me, because I will never spend mine under any circumstances." I just went and looked this up since I had heard about it before but didn't know the details and..... quote:Bought on 22nd May 2010 by Laszlo Hanyecz, the programmer paid a fellow Bitcoin Talk forum user 10,000 BTC for two Papa John’s pizzas. Even this transaction wasn't really done in butts apparently, just some dde buying another dude a pizza in exchange for butts, but nevertheless: quote:Now widely recognised as the first real-world transaction with bitcoin, May 22nd has come to celebrate 'Bitcoin Pizza Day', with cryptocurrency enthusiasts raising a slice to Hanyecz’s infamous hunger pangs that paved the way for early merchant adoption.
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Mar 6, 2016 21:16
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I'm loving offended by how much energy is wasted on mining. You couldn't put folding@home or something in the code and have all those useless computations mean something?
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Mar 6, 2016 21:17
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Alabaster White posted:I'm loving offended by how much energy is wasted on mining. You couldn't put folding@home or something in the code and have all those useless computations mean something? Realistically you might be able to include a proof of useful work, but they never will. Probably the best way to do it would be to have some kind of organization that needs computer time pay the network to perform operations, have the network reward those that do the tasks based on how much they do while having a buy in prerequisite that you have to process x transactions before we release the next set of paid tasks. But that's not going to catch on with the people that like bitcoin. The investors will never embrace another "currency" since they need bitcoin to go up up UP. The libertarians will not want something that needs corporate or government partners to work. And the criminals would be a drain on the system as the partners you would need probably wouldn't want to work with the #1 arms merchant enabling currency.
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Mar 6, 2016 22:03
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5 years from now some Chinese blokes will start building a Dyson Sphere just to capture the energy output of the sun for mining.
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Mar 6, 2016 22:17
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Leperflesh posted:Trust is the foundation of human society. In fact, establishing and reinforcing trusted relationships is an aspect of primate evolution; virtually all primates live in extended family groups, within which each individual establishes a relationship with each other individual. Viral marketing for MGSV is really getting out of hand.
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Mar 6, 2016 23:07
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Alabaster White posted:I'm loving offended by how much energy is wasted on mining. You couldn't put folding@home or something in the code and have all those useless computations mean something? happyhippy posted:5 years from now some Chinese blokes will start building a Dyson Sphere just to capture the energy output of the sun for mining. Can't wait till aliens discover the wreckage of our burnt out planet, and subsequently wonder what the gently caress happened. We will be like the Mayan civilization on a planetary scale, many theories about what did us in, but no concrete answer.
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Mar 6, 2016 23:10
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Dreddout posted:We will be like the Mayan civilization on a planetary scale, many theories about what did us in, but no concrete answer. DUDE! You know those undecipherable texts we have from the Mayans and other old civilizations. Has anyone considered that they are actually their version of bitcoin wallets instead.
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Mar 6, 2016 23:15
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hail orlaf
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Mar 6, 2016 23:59
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TheQuietWilds posted:Hey I know we're supposed to be jaded and dicks to each other nonstop but that was a really good effort post, thanks.
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Mar 7, 2016 00:12
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Dreddout posted:Viral marketing for MGSV is really getting out of hand. I had to look up what that was, I haven't played a Metal Gear game. Is there some sort of similarity with what I posted, somehow? hail orlaf
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Mar 7, 2016 00:37
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Leperflesh posted:I had to look up what that was, I haven't played a Metal Gear game. Is there some sort of similarity with what I posted, somehow? MGS games are expository nightmares, the comparison is grossly unfair to your effortpost
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Mar 7, 2016 07:27
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Filthy Hans posted:MGS games are expository nightmares, the comparison is grossly unfair to your effortpost hey one of them compellingly answered the age old question, "what if james bond was a burly autist with a gun obsession and an oedipal complex you could fight WWIII from?"
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Mar 7, 2016 08:12
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Leperflesh posted:I had to look up what that was, I haven't played a Metal Gear game. Is there some sort of similarity with what I posted, somehow? A major theme of V is communication, and its effects on human evolution. Coupled with your long post you reminded me of the character Code Talker. Filthy Hans posted:MGS games are expository nightmares, the comparison is grossly unfair to your effortpost This is also true.
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Mar 7, 2016 09:15
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Dreddout posted:A major theme of V is communication, and its effects on human evolution. Coupled with your long post you reminded me of the character Code Talker. VOCAL CORD PARASITES
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Mar 7, 2016 09:16
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https://medium.com/@barmstrong/what-happened-at-the-satoshi-roundtable-6c11a10d8cdf#.wej2zgbyuquote:If you want to ensure Bitcoin’s success, I’d encourage you to upgrade to Bitcoin Classic in the short term and then do what you can to help with the three step plan I outlined above. This is the best path forward to mitigate the dangerous situation we’ve found ourselves in.
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Mar 7, 2016 11:30
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jjjj
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Mar 7, 2016 11:37
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some1 really needs to wake up irene srsly
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Mar 7, 2016 11:38
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