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Gort posted:Tell me more about this. You haven't seen this? It's just kind of depressing in retrospect, though I guess the silver lining is that when Obama's on the campaign trail for the Democratic nominee, he can continue to endlessly mock Trump.
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Mar 5, 2016 12:42
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Cugel the Clever posted:
Political parties don't chase the vote of people who don't vote. It's why protest votes have never worked and will never work in a FTPTP system. There isn't any evidence to suggest that low turn out is because they don't think the party represents their interests either. Low turn out amongst low turn out demo's is more due to socioeconomic factors than anything else.
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Mar 5, 2016 12:50
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Venom Snake posted:Political parties don't chase the vote of people who don't vote. It's why protest votes have never worked and will never work in a FTPTP system. There isn't any evidence to suggest that low turn out is because they don't think the party represents their interests either. Low turn out amongst low turn out demo's is more due to socioeconomic factors than anything else. Hmmmmm, everything I'm reading points to you being wrong (no surprises there) so could you please link to any research that backs up your claim?
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Mar 5, 2016 12:54
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meristem posted:Gods, I may be a risk averse scaredy cat, but I hate when people say things like that. Any success for Trump increases any future chance of the Drumpfpartei actually winning something. He has already widened the window of acceptable political discourse enough to include such heinous poo poo as the Wall. I don't want much more of that while there's actual stuff to deal with. I think I might have a bit more faith in America than you. If Trump gets nominated for president this year, he's gonna get smacked down, and the Republicans, one way or another, are going to have to perform some serious surgery on their party to stay alive. Way I see it, Trump is leading the way for a strong turn to the left. If the Republicans want to walk the walk about not supporting the KKK, they're gonna have to go further than just shaming Trump for not disowning them.
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Mar 5, 2016 12:56
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Tight Booty Shorts posted:Hmmmmm, everything I'm reading points to you being wrong (no surprises there) so could you please link to any research that backs up your claim? If you want an example of turning out to vote getting a political party to listen to you look no further than this very primary were the black vote has decided the primary leading to both candidates having fairly comprehensive plans to address issues in/that effect the black community. Although I guess this wouldn't be a plus for Sanders supporters because it killed his campaign.
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Mar 5, 2016 12:57
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Yoshifan823 posted:If the Republicans want to walk the walk about not supporting the KKK, they're gonna have to go further than just shaming Trump for not disowning them.
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Mar 5, 2016 13:03
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Yoshifan823 posted:I think I might have a bit more faith in America than you. If Trump gets nominated for president this year, he's gonna get smacked down, and the Republicans, one way or another, are going to have to perform some serious surgery on their party to stay alive. Way I see it, Trump is leading the way for a strong turn to the left. If the Republicans want to walk the walk about not supporting the KKK, they're gonna have to go further than just shaming Trump for not disowning them.
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Mar 5, 2016 13:35
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DemeaninDemon posted:How do you turn left from Bernie Sanders? So like actual Jesus? Pretty much all bernie needs is a couple sawhorses and some really hungry wedding guests, really... (And Jesus superpowers, I guess) Cugel the Clever posted:
All of that. Though myself (and all the other bernie supporters I know) would all vote Clinton if it came to Clinton v Trump. As much as we don't like clinton, we are generally sensible people.
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Mar 5, 2016 13:40
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Kilroy posted:Trump is doing well because there is a critical mass of people willing to support his kind of candidacy, which is probably a new thing in contemporary American politics. You may have faith in America, but it seems to me you should have less faith in it now than ten years ago. 10 years ago Bush had been re-elected, Hurricane Katrina had hosed over the gulf coast, and we had yet to reach the elections so Republicans had majorities throughout Congress. So, maybe the wrong time frame but I see what you're going for.
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Mar 5, 2016 13:41
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farraday posted:10 years ago Bush had been re-elected, Hurricane Katrina had hosed over the gulf coast, and we had yet to reach the elections so Republicans had majorities throughout Congress. People re-elected Bush for vile reasons, but less vile reasons than why they're pushing Trump. It's been said many times, Trump's supporters are more terrifying than he is in many ways. I mean, imagine if Bush on the 2004 campaign had said just one or two of the craziest things Trump has. Imagine if Bush got into a fight with the Pope of all people.
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Mar 5, 2016 14:03
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Venom Snake posted:If you want an example of turning out to vote getting a political party to listen to you look no further than this very primary were the black vote has decided the primary leading to both candidates having fairly comprehensive plans to address issues in/that effect the black community. Although I guess this wouldn't be a plus for Sanders supporters because it killed his campaign. First of all that paragraph reads like it's written by a drunk person  I thought we were talking about the reasons why America had such a low voter turn out and democratic participation. I have to do more research but I don't think a majority of the population of any race votes or participates in our democracy and that's not a good thing.
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Mar 5, 2016 14:13
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Yoshifan823 posted:I think I might have a bit more faith in America than you. If Trump gets nominated for president this year, he's gonna get smacked down, and the Republicans, one way or another, are going to have to perform some serious surgery on their party to stay alive. Way I see it, Trump is leading the way for a strong turn to the left. If the Republicans want to walk the walk about not supporting the KKK, they're gonna have to go further than just shaming Trump for not disowning them. Please read the Vox article on the rise of American authoritarianism: http://www.vox.com/2016/3/1/11127424/trump-authoritarianism . Long story short, over the past 50 years or so, white people with authoritarian tendencies started to sort themselves into the Republican Party. Trump offers them a new possibility - the possibility to express themselves violently, which is what they've been dreaming about (cf. Molon Labe, RaHoWa, Bundy/sovereign citizen/militia/white supremacist movements, racially- and socially- (think the Trainwreck shooter) motivated mass shootings). Even if Trump is smacked down, it's highly likely that a new Trump will arise. In an essentially two-party system, this will mean that eventually, this will be the Drumpfpartei and the Democrats, because the possibility of violence offered by Trump is a more attractive prospect to this grouping than the necessity of even formal restraint demanded by the GOPe ('don't say the word, even if you think the word'). Although my additional thought is that a lot of those people are ceasing to give a gently caress about the Republican party or the democratic process itself (once again - Malheur, certain mass shooters). I think that America is due for an even greater increase in right-wing domestic terrorism, and that, in a way, this will be the next Civil War. (Which, nb., is a topic I'd love for Hillary and Bernie to discuss at one of their debates instead of talking about ISIS, but, hey. It seems like a slightly embarrassing topic, like a wart.)
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Mar 5, 2016 14:18
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Nichael posted:People re-elected Bush for vile reasons, but less vile reasons than why they're pushing Trump. It's been said many times, Trump's supporters are more terrifying than he is in many ways. I mean, imagine if Bush on the 2004 campaign had said just one or two of the craziest things Trump has. Imagine if Bush got into a fight with the Pope of all people. Yes but people re-elected Bush to the Presidency, Trump is still fighting for the nomination. Wake me in November when Trump wins the presidency. Or better yet, don't. I want to die in my sleep before the purging flame.
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Mar 5, 2016 14:19
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Here's to hoping desperately there's a magical ballistic mirv intercept system deployed in Atlanta when China retaliates for Trump leveling the South Chinese sea.
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Mar 5, 2016 14:25
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Does Trump even know what the President does in the course of an average day? Or is he among the people that think Obama spends his time in the office playing with the big Economy and Gas Prices levers on his desk? (and yes, I am referring to that one cartoon)
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Mar 5, 2016 14:31
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meristem posted:Although my additional thought is that a lot of those people are ceasing to give a gently caress about the Republican party or the democratic process itself (once again - Malheur, certain mass shooters). I think that America is due for an even greater increase in right-wing domestic terrorism, and that, in a way, this will be the next Civil War. As someone who followed the Malheur occupation WAY too closely for his own good: did you listen to them at all? It's not that they don't care about the democratic process, they fervently believe that the democratic process has been "stolen" or co-opted, and that they need the military and militias to take the process back. In their own way, they care deeply about the democratic process. In the same way a kidnapper cares about their captives. (Which is hilarious because if they think a military coup would "restore democracy" they are woefully mistaken.)
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Mar 5, 2016 14:31
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Rodenthar Drothman posted:As someone who followed the Malheur occupation WAY too closely for his own good: did you listen to them at all? It's not that they don't care about the democratic process, they fervently believe that the democratic process has been "stolen" or co-opted, and that they need the military and militias to take the process back. In their own way, they care deeply about the democratic process. (And, anyway, reducing to Hitler, the idea of the society being 'stolen'... or that America is 'no longer' great...) Like I said somewhere else already - the worst thing, there are some legitimate gripes there. A lot of them. But going to Trump to solve them is like going to the MRAs to solve the problems of male victims of domestic abuse.
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Mar 5, 2016 14:39
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meristem posted:Subjective thought is one thing. But functionally, objectively, how was anything done in Malheur democratic? Oh, I'm not saying anything they DID was democratic. A lot of their IDEAS were about "retaking democracy" and whatnot. The way their occupation was run was authoritarian, I think, and nothing they would have ever done would have resulted in democracy. But the ideals were there ... somehwere between dumbass David ranting about real and fake jews and Porkins being a sad failure.
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Mar 5, 2016 14:46
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I wish a billionaire had funded a far-left group for the past 8 years kicking out blue dog dems in favor of socialists.
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Mar 5, 2016 14:46
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Cugel the Clever posted:
Yeah but seriously though, HOPE N CHANGE voters don't usually vote in elections that matter. So blame the idiots that sit on the couch and don't vote during midterms/local elections.
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Mar 5, 2016 14:53
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Rodenthar Drothman posted:Oh, I'm not saying anything they DID was democratic. A lot of their IDEAS were about "retaking democracy" and whatnot. The way their occupation was run was authoritarian, I think, and nothing they would have ever done would have resulted in democracy. But the ideals were there ... somehwere between dumbass David ranting about real and fake jews and Porkins being a sad failure. They like democracy as a symbol. They do not like democracy as an idea.
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Mar 5, 2016 14:54
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Nostalgia4Infinity posted:Yeah but seriously though, HOPE N CHANGE voters don't usually vote in elections that matter. This blame mechanism is just what we needed to get the other half of Americans into the voting booths!  I get there is resentment but all this kicking and screaming looks ridiculous in lieu of any actual solutions to voter disenfranchisement.
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Mar 5, 2016 15:07
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Ratoslov posted:They like democracy as a symbol. They do not like democracy as an idea. Oh, they like it as an idea, it seems. They just cannot fathom the fact that it won't go their way. "What? But the SILENT MAJORITY will rise up! ... there is no such thing? Nonsense!" But we digress.
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Mar 5, 2016 15:10
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Nichael posted:You haven't seen this? It's just kind of depressing in retrospect, though I guess the silver lining is that when Obama's on the campaign trail for the Democratic nominee, he can continue to endlessly mock Trump. One cool fact to remember about this speech: this happened a day before bin laden was killed and the pres had full knowledge and had just given the go ahead before going to the dinner and telling jokes.
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Mar 5, 2016 15:23
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Mr. Nice! posted:One cool fact to remember about this speech: this happened a day before bin laden was killed and the pres had full knowledge and had just given the go ahead before going to the dinner and telling jokes. That was baller a f
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Mar 5, 2016 15:25
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Potato Salad posted:Here's to hoping desperately there's a magical ballistic mirv intercept system deployed in Atlanta when China retaliates for Trump leveling the South Chinese sea.
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Mar 5, 2016 15:41
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Nostalgia4Infinity posted:That was baller a f He didn't react at all when Seth Meyers made the Osama Bin Laden jokes. President Obama is poker faced like a motherfucker.
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Mar 5, 2016 15:41
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Cugel the Clever posted:
This assumption isn't backed up by reality. The largest non-voting group is youth. It has always been the largest non-voting group, from Watergate on to today. As they age, the youth always pick up their voting trends until they're in line with previous generations at the same age. Therefore, the assumption we can draw is that this youth vote is not specifically un-represented, and will vote when they're old enough (and indeed, some people who voted for Obama in their 20s are already showing that). If voters were so disillusioned with politics that they wouldn't vote, they would keep on not voting as they age.
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Mar 5, 2016 16:13
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Nostalgia4Infinity posted:Yeah but seriously though, HOPE N CHANGE voters don't usually vote in elections that matter. Sure, don't expend any resources if you think it's a lost cause, but don't actively reject them.
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Mar 5, 2016 16:13
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Tidal effects aside, the south china sea is pretty level to begin with.
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Mar 5, 2016 16:14
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Yoshifan823 posted:I think I might have a bit more faith in America than you. If Trump gets nominated for president this year, he's gonna get smacked down, and the Republicans, one way or another, are going to have to perform some serious surgery on their party to stay alive. Way I see it, Trump is leading the way for a strong turn to the left. If the Republicans want to walk the walk about not supporting the KKK, they're gonna have to go further than just shaming Trump for not disowning them. The GOP establishment had this brief moment of introspection in the aftermath of the 2012 election and absolutely zilch happened in the way of reform apart from "be more clear in our message of doubling down on the old white male vote!" It's a big reason of how the GOP came to be where it is now. The GOP is totally incapable of reform at this point. They are a massive ship adrift at sea and all the rudders are broken, and now there's a giant iceberg dead ahead they have no way of steering away from. Any steering will just make it worse as it scrapes out the sides instead of slamming it front and center.
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Mar 5, 2016 16:45
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The lesson of 2012 was "we need the Hispanics" which is how we ended up with Cruz, Rubio, and ¡Jeb!
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Mar 5, 2016 16:51
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Cugel the Clever posted:
No it isn't. People refusing to vote is what caused that. We have no duty to baby-pamper the petulant doofuses who outright refuse to vote. Anyone who refuses to vote because they were made fun of for refusing to vote is a jackass, and we're right to ignore their opinions - they will never have a say.
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Mar 5, 2016 16:59
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Zanzibar Ham posted:Does Trump even know what the President does in the course of an average day? Or is he among the people that think Obama spends his time in the office playing with the big Economy and Gas Prices levers on his desk? You forgot about constantly playing golf or being on vacation. You should hear the more conservative air traffic controllers bitch when working Air Force 1 on its way back from Hawaii. I unfortunately haven't caught any of them saying anything overtly racist yet outside of mispronouncing the names of his loving daughters because "weird black people names".
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Mar 5, 2016 17:00
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fishmech posted:No it isn't. People refusing to vote is what caused that. We have no duty to baby-pamper the petulant doofuses who outright refuse to vote. Anyone who refuses to vote because they were made fun of for refusing to vote is a jackass, and we're right to ignore their opinions - they will never have a say. We're specifically talking about people who came out to vote in the primaries/caucuses here, Mr. Reading Comprehension.
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Mar 5, 2016 17:01
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Cugel the Clever posted:We're specifically talking about people who came out to vote in the primaries/caucuses here, Mr. Reading Comprehension. You'll have to show there's significant numbers of people that vote in the primaries but don't in the general. If anything the opposite is true -voting in the primaries makes you much more likely to vote in the general, regardless of candidate.
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Mar 5, 2016 17:02
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computer parts posted:This assumption isn't backed up by reality. The largest non-voting group is youth. It has always been the largest non-voting group, from Watergate on to today. As they age, the youth always pick up their voting trends until they're in line with previous generations at the same age.
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Mar 5, 2016 17:03
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Dems are really screwed in November, and ya'll are already kicking sand about it. TRUMPf.
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Mar 5, 2016 17:04
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Cugel the Clever posted:We're specifically talking about people who came out to vote in the primaries/caucuses here, Mr. Reading Comprehension. Ah yes, all 5000 people who bother to vote in primaries but then act like petulant children and refuse to vote in the general because their dumb candidate didn't win. Those people sure are worth paying attention to.  Kilroy posted:Okay so how about not alienating them in the meantime, then. They're not being alienated. They just either can't vote (a decently large amount of them, because of problems getting to vote) or they don't bother. And then some of the latter group get all pissy and whine about being mocked for not bothering to vote.
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Mar 5, 2016 17:06
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Kilroy posted:Okay so how about not alienating them in the meantime, then. There's no evidence that their lack of voting is due to alienation, unless you're defining that term as something dumb.
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Mar 5, 2016 17:06
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