Ask Us About Military History: Remove Balls To Fire Blanks

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oohhboy: Jun 8, 2013; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

You might have missed something there.
:thejoke:

# ? Mar 5, 2016 07:43

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# ? May 28, 2024 18:58

Xander77: Apr 6, 2009; Fuck it then. For another pit sandwich and some 'tater salad, I'll post a few more.

Tevery Best posted:

Bij bolszewika!

You may (or may not) want to use some of these as illustrations. Interesting topic in general, because the Russian media focuses almost entirely on the Stalin / Tukhachevsky aspects of the conflict.

# ? Mar 5, 2016 12:34

feedmegin: Jul 30, 2008

Hogge Wild posted:

Ha, I was thinking about asking what the USA didn't produce more than all the other countries put together.

Jets

# ? Mar 5, 2016 12:39

Tevery Best: Oct 11, 2013; Hewlo Furriend

Xander77 posted:

You may (or may not) want to use some of these as illustrations. Interesting topic in general, because the Russian media focuses almost entirely on the Stalin / Tukhachevsky aspects of the conflict.

That's quite a selection! There's a lot of posters there I've never even seen. Thanks a lot!

From what I gather, Russian historiography focuses on Tukhachevsky mostly because they claim that the war started in 1920 with the Polish attack on Kiev. This is a line directly tracing back to Soviet propaganda of the time. It was also adopted by British historians pretty much until Norman Davies, since the first of them to write about the war were leftists and had a political bend to their work, while later writers simply didn't care much for what they had seen as a small border conflict or even just a part of the Russian Civil War.

# ? Mar 5, 2016 13:25

ArchangeI: Jul 15, 2010

Jobbo_Fett posted:

Germany did really love their subs. Its surprising to see U-boats with numbers like U-1105, and then it sinks in that they built so drat many.

Weren't the numbers partially to fool allied intelligence? The highest numbers are well over 4000, with huge gaps in between.

# ? Mar 5, 2016 13:43

Vincent Van Goatse: Nov 8, 2006; Enjoy every sandwich.; Smellrose

ArchangeI posted:

Weren't the numbers partially to fool allied intelligence? The highest numbers are well over 4000, with huge gaps in between.

That was because the submarines were contracted for in huge blocks, and cancellations of older designs/disruptions to production/Hitler meant that there would be huge gaps in the numbering sequence. Any benefits intelligence-wise were coincidental.

You see a similar thing happening with US Navy hull numbers at the same time for the same general reasons.

Vincent Van Goatse fucked around with this message at 14:27 on Mar 5, 2016

# ? Mar 5, 2016 14:24

Xander77: Apr 6, 2009; Fuck it then. For another pit sandwich and some 'tater salad, I'll post a few more.

Tevery Best posted:

even just a part of the Russian Civil War.

Well... yeah? I mean, all the little countries and "Republics" trying to break apart from the former Russian Empire are a part of the Russian civil war. Even those that had a reasonable chance of taking Moscow for the second time.

# ? Mar 5, 2016 15:05

Polyakov: Mar 22, 2012

Hogge Wild posted:

Ha, I was thinking about asking what the USA didn't produce more than all the other countries put together.

The US tended to produce the most or among the most individually (In terms of things with guns on or guns themselves) but its relatively uncommon that they outproduced everyone put together.

According to the bigass table i have here (from The Economics of WW2: Six Great Powers in International Comparison) the only category where that is the case is major naval vessels.

Though in terms of individual categories they outproduced everyone else individually in the following:

Machine guns
Guns
Combat Aircraft
Rifles & Carbines

And didnt in the following:

Machine Pistols
Mortars
Tanks & SPG's

Polyakov fucked around with this message at 17:18 on Mar 5, 2016

# ? Mar 5, 2016 17:11

LLSix: Jan 20, 2010; The real power behind countless overlords

Hogge Wild posted:

Ha, I was thinking about asking what the USA didn't produce more than all the other countries put together.

Dead Nazis?

Polyakov posted:

The US tended to produce the most or among the most individually (In terms of things with guns on or guns themselves) but its relatively uncommon that they outproduced everyone put together.

According to the bigass table i have here (from The Economics of WW2: Six Great Powers in International Comparison) the only category where that is the case is major naval vessels.

Though in terms of individual categories they outproduced everyone else individually in the following:

Machine guns
Guns
Combat Aircraft
Rifles & Carbines

And didnt in the following:

Machine Pistols
Mortars
Tanks & SPG's

Cyrano4747 posted:

^^^^ if you narrow it to effective superweapons that actually had an impact on the war, we arguably have way more than anyone else at two

We didn't produce nearly as many rifles as other countries, mostly because we weren't arming as huge an army. M1 Garand had something like 3.5 million made during the war , probably a third again that in carbines. 1903s were used in a front line capacity for a couple of years, but not in huge numbers. Call it a million made after the 30s just for the sake of argumetn, although I have no idea of the real numbers.

The Germans made 14 million K98ks. The Soviets made something like 35 million, although that's all production. On the other hand the vast majority of Mosins were made for WW2. Call it 20 million to be conservative.

LLSix fucked around with this message at 17:38 on Mar 5, 2016

# ? Mar 5, 2016 17:36

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

LLSix posted:

Dead Nazis?

primarily a soviet export

# ? Mar 5, 2016 17:39

Nebakenezzer: Sep 13, 2005; The Mote in God's Eye

Jobbo_Fett posted:

Germany did really love their subs. Its surprising to see U-boats with numbers like U-1105, and then it sinks in that they built so drat many.

The Mk. VII was tiny and designed to be mass-producable, so that helps.

xthetenth posted:

I once got asked in full earnestness "If the US had superweapons like you say they did, how come they didn't build them and end the war with them?"

Lol

You need to tell them that the Allies would invest in developing wild new technology when the ROI was good enough, like the Atom bomb, computers, and the Radiation lab for making better radars.

gohuskies posted:

...the B-29...

It's a good point- the B-29 might be one of the only times the Allies got into a situation where they had a project that was pushing the limits of technology and too big to fail, so when the "engine fire" problem cropped up they just had to persevere with it. I think they got it mostly under control, but I can't help but notice that post-war production of the B-29 (the B-50) used a different engine.

# ? Mar 5, 2016 18:25

xthetenth: Dec 30, 2012; Mario wasn't sure if this Jeb guy was a good influence on Yoshi.

Nebakenezzer posted:

You need to tell them that the Allies would invest in developing wild new technology when the ROI was good enough, like the Atom bomb, computers, and the Radiation lab for making better radars.

What's better, a slightly fancier plane or literal loving AWACS? Also nobody likes to pay attention to the bleeding edge stuff that the allies made in tiny numbers or didn't think were ready for the prime time, like the P-47J.

# ? Mar 5, 2016 18:42

JcDent: May 13, 2013; Give me a rifle, one round, and point me at Berlin!

Well, if it doesn't win the war in a knockout punch, and is good because you can make many of them and arm people, it's just A Weapon, not Super Weapon.

Otherwise, AK-4x is the biggest Soviet super weapon of all times.

# ? Mar 5, 2016 19:46

Nebakenezzer: Sep 13, 2005; The Mote in God's Eye

xthetenth posted:

What's better, a slightly fancier plane or literal loving AWACS? Also nobody likes to pay attention to the bleeding edge stuff that the allies made in tiny numbers or didn't think were ready for the prime time, like the P-47J.

I've never heard of the P-47J. It had a even bigger engine? :v:

# ? Mar 5, 2016 20:02

Jobbo_Fett: Mar 7, 2014; Slava Ukrayini; Clapping Larry

Nebakenezzer posted:

I've never heard of the P-47J. It had a even bigger engine?

Basically a high-speed/high-performance version of a regular P-47.

quote:

When fitted with a GE CH-5 turbosupercharger, the XP-47J achieved a top speed of 505 mph (440 kn, 813 km/h) in level flight on August 4, 1944 at 34,500 feet over a course in Farmingdale, NY. No piston engine airplane of the WWII era ever flew faster than the speed attained by test pilot Mike Ritchie in the XP-47J. It took nearly half a century for that speed record to be approached again in a piston engine aircraft. On August 16, 1989, Darryl Greenamyer piloted his highly modified Grumman F8F Bearcat to a new FAI certified official world speed record of 483 mph for a piston engine over the course at Edwards Air Force test center. Ritchie's speed record in the P-47J was not exceeded until August 21, 1989 when Lyle Shelton piloted a different modified Grumman Bearcat (with a larger Wright R-3350 Duplex Cyclone engine) and set a new official FAI record at 523.586 mph.

# ? Mar 5, 2016 20:22

Xiahou Dun: Jul 16, 2009; We shall dive down through black abysses... and in that lair of the Deep Ones we shall dwell amidst wonder and glory forever.

HEY GAL posted:

primarily a soviet export

Depends on how you count.

The Soviets did the most manufacturing, but the primary source of raw materials was Germany. :boom:

# ? Mar 5, 2016 20:23

Trin Tragula: Apr 22, 2005

buy the book, it keeps me motivated wading through these utter cretins the Russians call "generals" as I boot the Eastern Front in 1915 into shape

100 Years Ago

The Sixth Army's staff has von Knobelsdorf on the end, and he's finally been allowed to attack the west bank of the Meuse; artillery preparation is needed, which apparently made solid earth look like foam. Today is also the day that the British Empire tries once again to invade Tanzania, and I'm sure it will not be surprising that it's mostly Indians who are firmly grasping the lovely end of that particular stick. Admiral Scheer tries to poke the bear in the North Sea and singularly fails to do so; Grigoris Balakian encounters a sympathetic local official; Henri Desagneaux is about to cease being a rear-echelon shirker and begin his new life as a front-echelon shirker; Malcolm White not only has bronchitis but now his father's died; and Edward Mousley caps off this happy, happy day by going into hospital with rheumatism, although he at least has some considerable in-fight entertainment.

(I cut his full description of the man rather short for reasons of space, but here, I'll let you see it in full if you pinky promise to buy the book.)

quote:

I entered a ward too terrible for words, next bed to a most sad and awful apparition of a poor fellow who had been very ill. It was a long skin-covered skeleton with skinless ears, eyes protruding so far that one wondered how they stuck up at all, teeth on edge, legs thinner than a pick handle, and two arms like gloved broom-sticks catching frantically at various parts of his apparel where creatures of the am�bic world fled before those awful eyes. Add to this a half-insane chattering, punctuated with a periodical sharp crack as louse after louse was exploded between the creature's two thumbs, and you have the picture entitled, "A Hospital Shikar." Altogether it was a sight utterly terrible.

I thought of flight, and other things, but the hospital was small, and there was no other available room. So I wished them all good morning, and sat on the side of my bed farthest away, and having undressed got into bed as the assistant-surgeon, otherwise apothecary, directed. I had not been there for more than three minutes when the Enigma's Hindoo bearer entered. He became quickly engaged with his master in strenuous argument relating to curry, what time the Enigma ricochetted on and off the bed, and his mouth became the exhaust valve for his pent-up opinions of the world in general and his bearer in particular. I discovered later that malaria and dysentery had between them rendered him temporarily insane. He had been in the hospital for the whole of the siege, but was now slowly recovering.

While he was in extremis, however, I should say from all accounts that he must have been by far the most interesting person in Kut. For many days it seems his main hobby was in trying to make his bearer precede him through a door which did not exist at the foot of his bed. Another diversion was in seating himself on the window-sill stark naked about 1 a.m. in the night and mimicking, often with ghastly relish, the sounds and noises of various members of the Turkish artillery from Windy Lizzie to Naughty Nellie, the buzzing howitzer. I believe he was quite good at the bullets, and very promising on Frolicsome Fanny, which was easy, and only required an awful noise without warning�for as I have noted Fanny's jokes sometimes held fire for minutes. But in reproducing vocally the aeroplane's 100-pound bombs he is reported as having outdone even the bomb itself. In fact his own nerves could not stand this performance, and he generally wound up the item by taking cover under his bed.

Other nights he has been known to get behind his overturned bed and preach in a most entertaining way. Why he took to preaching was, he explained, due to the fact that he had been to church only once in his life, and that was his wedding-day. His sermons may be described as unorthodox, and varied from blatant sarcasm in such texts as, "When ye hear of war and rumours of wars be ye not troubled" ("Not" being considerably emphasized) to sheer optimism, one being, "Eat, sleep, and be merry, for to-morrow ye starve." But he did not always stick to his text, and in the last-mentioned sermon made a humorous digression on Kut, the way in and the way out, this being, as he informed his midnight audience, the prelude to a book he had recently written called "The Last of the Sixth Division," by a Field Officer. One day he insisted on believing he was on board a P. boat going downstream in charge of Turkish officers, and having attempted unsuccessfully to rejoin his boat in scanty apparel, finally consoled himself with fishing out of the window.

However, he is now supposed to be more or less permanently located in the sane region, but this from the other would seem to be separated by a mere dividing line, and he occasionally strays back.

# ? Mar 5, 2016 22:28

MrBling: Aug 21, 2003; Oozing machismo

Ikasuhito posted:

Does anybody here have a recommendation on any good books about the WW2 invasion/occupation of Denmark and/or Norway?

This is going back a few pages, but since nobody replied to you I figured I could give it a go but I doubt you will find many books in English about the invasion (such as it was) and occupation of Denmark.

Not knowing the author at all, this seems be a well reviewed book http://www.amazon.com/Denmark-Norway-1940-operation-Campaign/dp/1846031176/

I can pretty much guarantee that anything you find will be more focused on the Norwegian parts, since the invasion of Denmark was more of a target of opportunity thing than anything else.

Germany was looking to secure iron ore shipments from Norway and then figured that a) having an airbase in northern Jutland might be good and b) Denmark has a large agricultural sector than can feed Germany.

It didn't really get any more difficult when the Danish government decided to not prepare any defences in an attempt to not provoke the Germans. All in all the invasion took about six hours before Denmark surrendered in exchange for retaining as much power as possible. Hitler viewed Denmark as fellow aryans and was keen to show the world how good life would be in a cooperative German satellite state so they more or less let the Danish government continue to run things.

There was a fairly faithful movie made about the invasion actually, last year which I suppose you could watch if only to see the armaments of the Danish army.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jv2IxRJCddc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfZVSB5piUI

# ? Mar 5, 2016 22:36

Veritek83: Jul 7, 2008; The Irish can't drink. What you always have to remember with the Irish is they get mean. Virtually every Irish I've known gets mean when he drinks.

I'm headed to Warsaw in a couple of weeks to visit my sister and brother-in-law. Has anyone toured the Wolfsschanze/Wolf's Lair? Apparently it's only a day trip from Warsaw, but it sounds like there isn't much in the way of exhibits or museum stuff, just the actual site.

# ? Mar 5, 2016 23:21

Chillbro Baggins: Oct 8, 2004; Bad Angus! Bad!

Alchenar posted:

PS. Napoleon was not a cold steel guy. He was an artilleryman, he remained an artilleryman when he became a general, he never stopped believing in the power of the artillery to win battles.

Not necessarily a bad thing. Stonewall Jackson was also an artilleryman, and he had a pretty good run as a general.

Raenir Salazar posted:

Um why? The Chieftain also works for World of Tanks and generally represents a huge effort at primary research to make the game more accurate. As is The Challenger, the guest speaker in question.

They also did mention that the Germans managed to do so well in 1941 was mainly because of tactics, training, and leadership.

Was gonna post this myself. I prefer the Irish-American guy, idk if it's his silly accent or the way he rates tanks based on how comfy the engine deck is to sleep on. Too bad there's probably still enough classified poo poo inside an Abrams (or lack of them in museums) for him to do a Chieftan's Hatch tour of his old ride.

feedmegin posted:

Turboprops (and specifically Tucanos) have always been a thing for COIN, though. They can fly slower than jets which is handy when trying to shoot up guerrillas in jungles or whatever.

Hell, piston radials -- the Douglas A-1 -- lasted well into the '70s for CAS/COIN (the US military gave all theirs to South Vietnam by '73, and the last user retired the Skyraider in 1985.)

Of course, nowadays with guided bombs/cruise missiles, for the USAF (not denying that the Super Tucano is great for South American countries fighting drug cartels/poorly-armed rebels), it's more effective/safer/even longer loiter time to have a B-52 or F-15E orbiting at 50k feet, isn't it? And if the poor fucks in the infantry get in so tight a bomb won't do, the Mudhen can still drop down and do a gun run. Dad hated the fast movers in Vietnam because they had zero loiter time and your options were inaccurate napalm or nothing; since then they've figured out precision munitions, efficient turbofans, and put guns back on fighters, and the USAF no longer needs prop planes for CAS/COIN.

Cyrano4747 posted:

loving lol looking at wikipedia we also got waaaaaaay outproduced in subs. 245 vs. more than 1000 for Germany.

ArchangeI posted:

Weren't the numbers partially to fool allied intelligence? The highest numbers are well over 4000, with huge gaps in between.

They may have inflated the serial numbers either accidentally (via cancelled orders as was mentioned) or intentionally, but otoh we have fairly hard numbers from records captured after the war. They made a fuckton of boats to try to keep up with losses -- 3/4 of U-Boat sailors didn't survive the war, and a lot of 'em didn't make it home from their first cruise. There were almost half again as many Type VII boats as Tiger II tanks.

Also we kinda dominated the surface, the U-Boats were the only way the Kriegsmarine could get out of port after the US threw in (and they didn't do all that well when they were just fighting the RN, see Bismark's ill-fated first sortie).

Chillbro Baggins fucked around with this message at 08:55 on Mar 6, 2016

# ? Mar 6, 2016 08:52

Splode: Jun 18, 2013; put some clothes on you little freak

My understanding is that prop planes are still great for CAS as long as you don't give a single gently caress about dead pilots

# ? Mar 6, 2016 09:27

JcDent: May 13, 2013; Give me a rifle, one round, and point me at Berlin!

What about upgraded Mig-21s and stuff? Or is it that if you're going jet for CAS, you might as well buy top of the line stuff?

# ? Mar 6, 2016 10:38

Siivola: Dec 23, 2012

Textron is apparently making a cheap CAS jet mostly out of off-the-shelf parts.

# ? Mar 6, 2016 12:58

Chillbro Baggins: Oct 8, 2004; Bad Angus! Bad!

Siivola posted:

Textron is apparently making a cheap CAS jet mostly out of off-the-shelf parts.

To echo the post immediately before you:

JcDent posted:

What about upgraded Mig-21s and stuff? Or is it that if you're going jet for CAS, you might as well buy top of the line stuff?

Yeah, it's a cheap jet, but anybody doing CAS on the cheap is going to go with Tucanos and everybody that can afford jets is going to buy Vipers for just a few million dollars more (to be fair, the prices wikipedia lists are rather out of date for the alternatives, but I'd assume the Tucano still costs 1/10 what the cheap jet costs, and a proper jet is only twice that or so, especially if the F-35 ever makes it to full-scale production and we start selling off pre-owned F-16s).

# ? Mar 6, 2016 13:20

Xander77: Apr 6, 2009; Fuck it then. For another pit sandwich and some 'tater salad, I'll post a few more.

Trin Tragula posted:

Today is also the day that the British Empire tries once again to invade Tanzania, and I'm sure it will not be surprising that it's mostly Indians who are firmly grasping the lovely end of that particular stick.

quote:

All the troops�were enveloped in a thick haze of dust from the moment the march started until the halt at the end of the day. Only those who have done such marches know what they mean. It is one thing to picture war in terms of smartly aligned columns marching on good roads. It is another to see the reality. Columns of filthy, sweating men, staggering with fatigue at the end of such a march, and with parched mouths gasping for water.

Rudyard Kipling posted:

We�re foot�slog�slog�slog�sloggin' over Africa �
Foot�foot�foot�foot�sloggin' over Africa �
(Boots�boots�boots�boots�movin' up an' down again!)
There's no discharge in the war!

Seven�six�eleven�five�nine-an'-twenty mile to-day �
Four�eleven�seventeen�thirty-two the day before �
(Boots�boots�boots�boots�movin' up an' down again!)
There's no discharge in the war!

Don�t�don�t�don�t�don�t�look at what�s in front of you.
(Boots�boots�boots�boots�movin' up an' down again);
Men�men�men�men�men go mad with watchin' em,
An' there's no discharge in the war!

Try�try�try�try�to think o' something different �
Oh�my�God�keep�me from goin' lunatic!
(Boots�boots�boots�boots�movin' up an' down again!)
There's no discharge in the war!

Count�count�count�count�the bullets in the bandoliers.
If�your�eyes�drop�they will get atop o' you!
(Boots�boots�boots�boots�movin' up an' down again) �
There's no discharge in the war!

We�can�stick�out�'unger, thirst, an' weariness,
But�not�not�not�not the chronic sight of 'em �
Boot�boots�boots�boots�movin' up an' down again,
An' there's no discharge in the war!

'Taint�so�bad�by�day because o' company,
But night�brings�long�strings�o' forty thousand million
Boots�boots�boots�boots�movin' up an' down again.
There's no discharge in the war!

I�'ave�marched�six�weeks in 'Ell an' certify
It�is�not�fire�devils, dark, or anything,
But boots�boots�boots�boots�movin' up an' down again,
An' there's no discharge in the war!

The Russian translation (which I generally prefer, as far as Kipling goes) is of two minds - does discharge refer to battles (of which the second Boer War had practically none) or getway/relief?

Xander77 fucked around with this message at 14:19 on Mar 6, 2016

# ? Mar 6, 2016 14:17

ArchangeI: Jul 15, 2010

JcDent posted:

What about upgraded Mig-21s and stuff? Or is it that if you're going jet for CAS, you might as well buy top of the line stuff?

MiG21s are terrible, terrible CAS planes. You might as well use F104s in a low level strike role in northern central Europe. Plus with such old equipment you are rapidly approaching the point where you are just building a new airplane inside an old one (that might fall apart at the seams at any moment) if you try and integrate modern weaponry. The days when you could just drop bombs somewhere east/west of your own troops and probably hit the right guys are over. Nevermind how survivable such a plane would be on a modern battlefield against anything but the weakest opposition.

I mean, sure, if you are the Republic of Equatorial Africa with a military budget in the two digit million dollar range, go for it.

# ? Mar 6, 2016 14:34

JcDent: May 13, 2013; Give me a rifle, one round, and point me at Berlin!

Considering that I live in a country of nearly three mil, I might be interested in shoe string budgets.

Not really, tho: any coin we'd ever do would be against LGMs, and in that case T-90s and Flankers wouldn't be far behind.

Are there any fun planes out there made by coubtries like Italy, SAR and other medium size boys?

# ? Mar 6, 2016 15:04

Chillbro Baggins: Oct 8, 2004; Bad Angus! Bad!

Xander77 posted:

The Russian translation (which I generally prefer, as far as Kipling goes) is of two minds - does discharge refer to battles (of which the second Boer War had practically none) or getway/relief?

Pretty sure "discharge" means "getting out of the loving Army because I'm well done with this poo poo."

Speaking of war poetry, Lord Tennyson can go eat a dick like the Light Brigade did, Kipling knows what it's like to be a racist imperialist... wait, let me try that again. Nah, gently caress it, Kipling was racist and working for the Empire, but drat, dude had a way with words, Tennyson wrote about both cav brigades at Balaclava, Joe R. Kipling is still quoted by SF types today:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drBIhnATwuc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1Nj6OpFssM

Me pa's quoted both of those. "If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs" and "When it comes to slaughter you will do your work on water, and you'll lick the bloomin' boots of 'im what's got it."

# ? Mar 6, 2016 15:29

bewbies: Sep 23, 2003; Fun Shoe

Delivery McGee posted:

And if the poor fucks in the infantry get in so tight a bomb won't do, the Mudhen can still drop down and do a gun run.

Believe it or not the most precise form of aerial fire support are bombs, particularly the latest generation of Small Diameter Bomb. Gun runs from aircraft are like painting with a hose in comparison....the only thing better is if you have an Apache hovering over your head and a direct radio or data link to the pilot.

JcDent posted:

Considering that I live in a country of nearly three mil, I might be interested in shoe string budgets.

Not really, tho: any coin we'd ever do would be against LGMs, and in that case T-90s and Flankers wouldn't be far behind.

Are there any fun planes out there made by coubtries like Italy, SAR and other medium size boys?

Honestly your best ROI CAS/AI-wise in that case is to make friends with country that has a good air force and then invest in integration systems/personnel/training/etc.

# ? Mar 6, 2016 15:45

Xander77: Apr 6, 2009; Fuck it then. For another pit sandwich and some 'tater salad, I'll post a few more.

Delivery McGee posted:

Me pa's quoted both of those. "If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs" and "When it comes to slaughter you will do your work on water, and you'll lick the bloomin' boots of 'im what's got it."

Both Soviet Russia and Israel really goddamn adore(d) Kipling, and there are few IDF "thinking officer" offices that don't have "If" hanging on a wall somewhere. It was a bit of surprise (though not exactly a shock) to find out I was supposed to find him outdated and terrible.

Edit - "Kill him!" is still the best bit of war poetry I've read/heard though.

Xander77 fucked around with this message at 16:02 on Mar 6, 2016

# ? Mar 6, 2016 15:57

SeanBeansShako: Nov 20, 2009; Now the Drums beat up again,
For all true Soldier Gentlemen.

I assume you mean the poem about the Light Brigade and the weird Victorian death cult around it right? because most of the men who rode into the cannons fire were just following some really badly Interpreted orders.

# ? Mar 6, 2016 16:16

feedmegin: Jul 30, 2008

Delivery McGee posted:

Also we kinda dominated the surface, the U-Boats were the only way the Kriegsmarine could get out of port after the US threw in (and they didn't do all that well when they were just fighting the RN, see Bismark's ill-fated first sortie).

Theres no 'just' about it, the RN on its own was a lot larger than the German surface fleet, hence why the US big ships could concentrate on the Pacific.

# ? Mar 6, 2016 16:23

Xander77: Apr 6, 2009; Fuck it then. For another pit sandwich and some 'tater salad, I'll post a few more.

SeanBeansShako posted:

I assume you mean the poem about the Light Brigade and the weird Victorian death cult around it right? because most of the men who rode into the cannons fire were just following some really badly Interpreted orders.

Also the Charge of the Heavy Brigade which is generally forgotten about, due to not being accompanied by great slaughter. Unfortunate - because how often do you charge cavalry uphill, against an equivalent force of cavalry charging downhilld, and win? Tennyson thought so as well, but his take on the attack remained just as much in the shadow his take on the Light Brigade as the respective attacks.

Edit - Hah. Of course the Russian wiki is going to declare the Russians as the victors of the particular skirmish. "Obviously" there are any number of reasons why the force "falling back" to prepared positions are completely victorious.

Xander77 fucked around with this message at 16:36 on Mar 6, 2016

# ? Mar 6, 2016 16:27

SeanBeansShako: Nov 20, 2009; Now the Drums beat up again,
For all true Soldier Gentlemen.

Oh those whacky Russian nationalists trying to paint the Crimean War a good thing.

# ? Mar 6, 2016 17:21

Hazzard: Mar 16, 2013

Was Charge of the Light Brigade meant to be propaganda? I had to study it in English and took away that it was propaganda for an unpopular war. And then we get the Victorian death cult which partially results in the unhealthy attitudes held at the beginning of WW1.

# ? Mar 6, 2016 17:28

Davin Valkri: Apr 8, 2011; Maybe you're weighing the moral pros and cons but let me assure you that OH MY GOD
SHOOT ME IN THE GODDAMNED FACE
WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR?!

Am I weird for thinking that Kipling's Last of the Light Brigade is much better than Tennyson's Charge of the Light Brigade? The former seems more... interesting today.

# ? Mar 6, 2016 17:32

SeanBeansShako: Nov 20, 2009; Now the Drums beat up again,
For all true Soldier Gentlemen.

Hazzard posted:

Was Charge of the Light Brigade meant to be propaganda? I had to study it in English and took away that it was propaganda for an unpopular war. And then we get the Victorian death cult which partially results in the unhealthy attitudes held at the beginning of WW1.

To me that poem around the events at the time seems more like spin than propaganda. It might have evolved into propaganda as the Victorian era chugged along.

# ? Mar 6, 2016 17:37

Xander77: Apr 6, 2009; Fuck it then. For another pit sandwich and some 'tater salad, I'll post a few more.

SeanBeansShako posted:

Oh those whacky Russian nationalists trying to paint the Crimean War a good thing.

I have no idea what you're on about.

...

Anyways, here's a reminder from the political cartoons thread that political cartoons were always poo poo:

Never mind the propoganda aspect of the whole thing - "A trump Card(igan)" is just so goddamned terrible.

# ? Mar 6, 2016 17:49

SeanBeansShako: Nov 20, 2009; Now the Drums beat up again,
For all true Soldier Gentlemen.

At least you can get a general idea of what the art is trying to put forward. It'd be some fat beardy dude wearing a cardigan running at a huge over the top cannon with the words RUSSIAN AGGRESSION on the side with somehow Obama in the background just shrugging.

Old political cartoon and satrical art is sure fun to look at. Prepare to do a long of squinting though, as they really loved jamming tiny assed words into CAD sized word bubbles!

# ? Mar 6, 2016 17:55

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# ? May 28, 2024 18:58

JcDent: May 13, 2013; Give me a rifle, one round, and point me at Berlin!

Having voted in Gaybies, I'm certain that political cartoons changed in that quality of the drawings went downhill

# ? Mar 6, 2016 17:57

The Something Awful Forums > Archives > Comedy Goldmine > Ask Us About Military History: Remove Balls To Fire Blanks

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