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OwlFancier posted:I wonder why all these people just spontaneously decided that they really need to move somewhere nicer at this moment in time when things are actually really OK where they live, not like there's a war on there or anything. They just felt like moving. Ahaha, still going with that one? Love this thread. Ok, we'll see in a few months (assuming the EU actually manages something) what happens to refugee numbers if news spreads that they're going to be stuck in Greece instead of having free passage to Germany and Sweden. I'm sure you'll be completely happy to admit you're wrong if they start to fall, right?
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Mar 6, 2016 21:49
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rationalising the turning-away of genuine refugees (which even your absurd figure is admitting makes up a significant portion of those arriving) without proper processing is really really lovely. ditto saying "aaagh perfidious greeks should be 'turning back' the overcrowded boats" it's a moral failure, there's nothing else to say about it
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Mar 6, 2016 21:49
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I'm not sure you need to be literally dodging bullets in order to be displaced by war.Geriatric Pirate posted:Ahaha, still going with that one? Love this thread. Why wouldn't refugee numbers fall if you stop them entering europe? People are probably not going to want to try their luck in a country which is already in the poo poo, people generally move to get out of the poo poo.
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Mar 6, 2016 21:51
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OwlFancier posted:I am not contributing to the great socail stigma oppressing men the world over by saying they're more likely to be rapists. No? You don't think that a man being accused of that via official complaint, or just sexual harassment while holding most any kind of job, is not likely to suffer material damage, as well as a personal stigma, in most of today's western countries? You really don't think that any supervisor, who halfway knows what they're doing, will treat this kind of report seriously to some degree, knowing it will affect the entire work atmosphere if it is permitted to continue? Earlier ITT I linked a news report of a police officer being falsely accused by a burqa-clad woman of being a racist for stopping her on the road. And I tend to believe the following line stated in one of those inverviewed: "The mere accusation of this kind of thing, without managing to provide conclusive evidence to the contrary, like the camera footage, can be enough to wreck a police officers' career." There's more than enough number of cases, where supervisors deliberately relocate such workers to far worse postings (if not even completely sideline them), simply because of the accusation and regardless of whether it ever turns out to be true or not. If you think that this kind of rhetoric is not damaging ever against CIS-males in most western countries, you are naive to the point where you think that simply being part of a majority gives us privileges, that allow us to do whatever we like and get away with it. And while that privilege definitely does exist, AND AGAIN is why I ultimately have a progressive mindset myself, to think that nothing you say against any one of us could possibly hurt us materially is such bullshit that it warranted an actual effortpost from me in response that had next to nothing to do with the topic of this thread. Much like every other post recently lol.
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Mar 6, 2016 21:51
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"oh you'll be murdered by barbaric death cults if you stay where you are? well i'm afraid that some other guys are going to cost us money to process and then return, so you're not coming here m8"
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Mar 6, 2016 21:51
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V. Illych L. posted:rationalising the turning-away of genuine refugees (which even your absurd figure is admitting makes up a significant portion of those arriving) without proper processing is really really lovely. ditto saying "aaagh perfidious greeks should be 'turning back' the overcrowded boats" Last I checked there is no war going on in Greece (I'll give you Turkey because Sultan Recep I. is currently waging a small scale civil war against the Kurds), which means they are free to apply for asylum in Greece. OwlFancier posted:I'm not sure you need to be literally dodging bullets in order to be displaced by war. Because they are not migrating because of economic reasons, but because they are fearing for their life.
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Mar 6, 2016 21:54
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CrazyLoon posted:No? You don't think that a man being accused of that via official complaint, or just sexual harassment while holding most any kind of job, is not likely to suffer material damage, as well as a personal stigma, in most of today's western countries? You really don't think that any supervisor, who halfway knows what they're doing, will treat this kind of report seriously to some degree, knowing it will affect the entire work atmosphere if it is permitted to continue? Nope, still don't give a poo poo, sorry. Don't think that's a serious concern or a typical one. GaussianCopula posted:Because they are not migrating because of economic reasons, but because they are fearing for their life. Again, I don't think you need to be literally being shot at in order to have a very legitimate reason to not want to live in a country at war. Do you wait until you're being shot at before you leave? Do you wait for your job to be blown up by some knobhead in a jet? Do you wait until your family is already dead? Or do you leave beforehand because you are afraid that will happen in the future? If you remove the option of living anything like a decent life in Europe then more people are going to chance the war not reaching them, which they should not have to do. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 21:57 on Mar 6, 2016 |
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Mar 6, 2016 21:54
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OwlFancier posted:Nope, still don't give a poo poo, sorry. Don't think that's a serious concern or a typical one. As if I could expect anything different lol. Okay then. Keep on hating all men for the actions of its minority, I'm sure that doesn't make you a massive hypocrite or anything.
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Mar 6, 2016 21:56
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CrazyLoon posted:As if I could expect anything different lol. I don't hate all men, I don't like men but I don't have to hate them to simply be aware of the plain fact that they account for the majority of rapists in the world.
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Mar 6, 2016 21:58
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V. Illych L. posted:rationalising the turning-away of genuine refugees (which even your absurd figure is admitting makes up a significant portion of those arriving) without proper processing is really really lovely. ditto saying "aaagh perfidious greeks should be 'turning back' the overcrowded boats" Yes yes, spending billions of dollars on funding some swarthy young man's european vacation is great use of money. By the way, the refugee camps around the world are going in the shitter reeeeaaaallly loving fast because EU countries are basically spending their foreign aid budget on their local refugees. Current application refusal rate for Finland is about 66%, gently caress loads of money spent on processing, housing and shipping out people who had no need to come here. But thank god it's not being used to help white people, that's the important part, right? OwlFancier posted:Why wouldn't refugee numbers fall if you stop them entering europe? People are probably not going to want to try their luck in a country which is already in the poo poo, people generally move to get out of the poo poo. 'Refugee' numbers are going to fall once these people realize that they aren't going to get free house, car and blonde girlfriend, no matter what the human smugglers tell them.
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Mar 6, 2016 22:00
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GaussianCopula posted:Last I checked there is no war going on in Greece (I'll give you Turkey because Sultan Recep I. is currently waging a small scale civil war against the Kurds), which means they are free to apply for asylum in Greece. perhaps they would, if there was some sane system for distributing refugees in europe atm there is no way greece could cope with the several hundred thousand refugees that have washed up on their shores, though. expecting them to properly process that many people with the resources they have available is, putting it mildly, not realistic. turning back the boats is also not a viable option for them, because once again it would turn back those who have a right to protection, and who do not have a reasonable expectation that the turkish state will be able or willing to keep them alive - a common refrain i hear from these people is that they were in turkey for a year or two, but were rapidly running out of money, and the conditions in the turkish system were not adequate for maintaining any kind of healthy living without additional funds it's clear that, once in europe, many people move according to economic or social motives (e.g. have heard that sweden is more likely to let them stay than slovenia or w/e), but that only further emphasises the need for a coherent pan-european system, it does not excuse the "leave them to rot" mentality, which once again represents a moral failure
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Mar 6, 2016 22:01
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Puistokemisti posted:But thank god it's not being used to help white people, that's the important part, right? crab_bucket.txt
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Mar 6, 2016 22:02
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OwlFancier posted:Men are not an oppressed minority hth. Neither are women in the West. Rappaport posted:I'm sorry I was a dick, I just think she's a cool person and her contributions were important! I should've been more open and helpful towards you instead of being a flaming jackass That's okay, there are loads of interesting and influential people in all walks of life that I constantly discover and wonder "how the hell didn't I know about him/her before".  Sometimes it's a person that you've just heard of and when you start reading about him/her you discover that there is so much more to the story.Cat Mattress posted:Women are not idols. They are humans, they are persons. Now, there, Cat Mattress. I thought you were one of the smart ones. I did use the word "idolize", but I didn't use the word "idol". Surely you must understand the difference?
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Mar 6, 2016 22:02
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Puistokemisti posted:Yes yes, spending billions of dollars on funding some swarthy young man's european vacation is great use of money. By the way, the refugee camps around the world are going in the shitter reeeeaaaallly loving fast because EU countries are basically spending their foreign aid budget on their local refugees. Current application refusal rate for Finland is about 66%, gently caress loads of money spent on processing, housing and shipping out people who had no need to come here. But thank god it's not being used to help white people, that's the important part, right? nice post
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Mar 6, 2016 22:02
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OhYeah posted:Neither are women in the West. Bzzt, wrong. Minority no, oppressed yes.
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Mar 6, 2016 22:03
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OwlFancier posted:Again, I don't think you need to be literally being shot at in order to have a very legitimate reason to not want to live in a country at war. Do you wait until you're being shot at before you leave? Do you wait for your job to be blown up by some knobhead in a jet? Do you wait until your family is already dead? Or do you leave beforehand because you are afraid that will happen in the future? So basically your argument boils down to "we have to allow refugees to improve or at least keep their standard of living, otherwise they might be tempted to stay until the war reaches them"? As it is very realistic that KSA will sooner rather than later implode in a civil war, should we introduce first class refugee lodging to make sure it's acceptable to this group of potential future victims of war?
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Mar 6, 2016 22:04
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GaussianCopula posted:So basically your argument boils down to "we have to allow refugees to improve or at least keep their standard of living, otherwise they might be tempted to stay until the war reaches them"? We have the means as wealthy nations to accommodate a lot of people who want to avoid being caught up in a war. There is no justification for not doing so save xenophobia and greed.
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Mar 6, 2016 22:06
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OwlFancier posted:Bzzt, wrong. Minority no, oppressed yes. How are women oppressed in the West? Let's forget about sexual violence for a moment because we've already discussed this at length. I can't think of a *single* example.
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Mar 6, 2016 22:07
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GaussianCopula posted:a car, job, house and hot blonde girlfriend Puistokemisti posted:free house, car and blonde girlfriend
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Mar 6, 2016 22:07
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OhYeah posted:How are women oppressed in the West? Let's forget about sexual violence for a moment because we've already discussed this at length. wage gap, systematic underrepresentation of women in high-paying/high-prestige occupations, sexual violence (not getting away from this 'cos it's a big one) and a variety of weird cultural issues, especially relating to physicality and sexuality
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Mar 6, 2016 22:08
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OhYeah posted:How are women oppressed in the West? Let's forget about sexual violence for a moment because we've already discussed this at length. Let's forget possibly the most significant example, yes.
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Mar 6, 2016 22:08
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R. Mute posted:Is this the current racism meme then? "our women" has been a racist meme since before racism as we understand it was even a thing
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Mar 6, 2016 22:09
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R. Mute posted:Is this the current racism meme then? Yeah, they wouldn't be coming if there were only redheads on offer.
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Mar 6, 2016 22:10
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EuroPol: Help, help, I'm being repressed!!!
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Mar 6, 2016 22:13
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R. Mute posted:Is this the current racism meme then? It's the common theme among refugees who made it to Germany and traffickers. There was a story in the FAZ a few weeks ago, where they described the pictures some Moroccans were sending their families. These pictures included detached houses, BMW, Mercedes and other status symbols that are clearly out of reach for regular refugees and the pictures were taken in front of cars and houses not owned or used by the people in question. But sure, it's just a racism meme.
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Mar 6, 2016 22:13
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More like Euro/pol/, am I right
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Mar 6, 2016 22:14
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OhYeah posted:I did use the word "idolize", but I didn't use the word "idol". Surely you must understand the difference? Most women don't want to be idolized. They want to be treated like human beings. Being treated as an object of worship is objectifying and creepy. A pedestal is a very confining prison.
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Mar 6, 2016 22:15
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GaussianCopula posted:But sure, it's just a racism meme.
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Mar 6, 2016 22:17
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GaussianCopula posted:It's the common theme among refugees who made it to Germany and traffickers. There was a story in the FAZ a few weeks ago, where they described the pictures some Moroccans were sending their families. These pictures included detached houses, BMW, Mercedes and other status symbols that are clearly out of reach for regular refugees and the pictures were taken in front of cars and houses not owned or used by the people in question. Are the people reaching germany disproportionately sociopaths trying to trick their families into coming over as well by sincerely pretending to own all of those things? Because that's not really a thing I think real humans would do.
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Mar 6, 2016 22:17
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V. Illych L. posted:wage gap, systematic underrepresentation of women in high-paying/high-prestige occupations, sexual violence (not getting away from this 'cos it's a big one) and a variety of weird cultural issues, especially relating to physicality and sexuality 1. Wage gap: women choose jobs that pay less and stay out of the labour market for longer. Compare similarly educated men and women at the same position and the wage gap is within the margin of error. In some countries there are certain demographics where women outearn men (total earnings, not counting any of the details). Absolute bollocks. In most Western countries it is *illegal* to pay women and men a different wage for the same job. 2. Underrepresentation of women: interesting one. There is no legal, societal of economic factor that stops women from pursuing the same jobs as men. Personal evidence: at my largest client's company three of the four major positions are held by women. If women don't want to pursue certain careers or positions, that's not oppression, that's their choices. 3. Women are more likely to be a victim of sexual violence, but men are more likely to be a victim of any other violent crime (the rate is generally about 3:1). 4. Are you speaking about the objectification of women? Because if you ask any women that get "objectified" (models, entertainment industry people, porn stars etc) if they are bothered by it they say hell no, that's my paycheck you are talking about. In any case men get objectified just the same. People want to see beautiful people in ads, TV shows and music videos. That's just the way it is. We appreciate physical attractiveness.
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Mar 6, 2016 22:21
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OhYeah posted:1. Wage gap: women choose jobs that pay less and stay out of the labour market for longer. Compare similarly educated men and women at the same position and the wage gap is within the margin of error. In some countries there are certain demographics where women outearn men (total earnings, not counting any of the details). Absolute bollocks. In most Western countries it is *illegal* to pay women and men a different wage for the same job.
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Mar 6, 2016 22:25
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OwlFancier posted:Are the people reaching germany disproportionately sociopaths trying to trick their families into coming over as well by sincerely pretending to own all of those things? The FAZ article explained it as a question of pride, where the often young, male migrants don't want admit to their family that they failed in securing a better life, especially since their families often invested a lot of money in their voyage. But here is a quote from the LA Times, who did an article on refugees going back home when they realized that Germany is not the land of milk and honey. quote:Many refugees say they are now happy to trade a cold, heartless and lonely life in one of Europe's richest countries for the violence, insecurity and poverty back home. And they say they have realized, rather belatedly, that smugglers had sold them a pack of lies about big houses, well-paying jobs and the life of luxury they would find in Germany. http://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la-fg-germany-refugees-20160301-story.html
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Mar 6, 2016 22:25
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OhYeah posted:2. Underrepresentation of women: interesting one. There is no legal, societal of economic factor that stops women from pursuing the same jobs as men. you're actually taking the piss now aren't you, you can't possibly be that loving stupid the societal factor is that they're women
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Mar 6, 2016 22:26
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Cat Mattress posted:Most women don't want to be idolized. They want to be treated like human beings. Being treated as an object of worship is objectifying and creepy. A pedestal is a very confining prison. Hahahahahahahahhahahahahahahaha if you actually believe that. Everyone likes positive attention, regardless of their sex, religion or ethnicity.
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Mar 6, 2016 22:27
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OhYeah posted:1. Wage gap: women choose jobs that pay less and stay out of the labour market for longer. Compare similarly educated men and women at the same position and the wage gap is within the margin of error. In some countries there are certain demographics where women outearn men (total earnings, not counting any of the details). Absolute bollocks. In most Western countries it is *illegal* to pay women and men a different wage for the same job. There are significant social expectations for women to not devote their lives to work, or to seek education in many professional subjects. OhYeah posted:2. Underrepresentation of women: interesting one. There is no legal, societal of economic factor that stops women from pursuing the same jobs as men. Personal evidence: at my largest client's company three of the four major positions are held by women. If women don't want to pursue certain careers or positions, that's not oppression, that's their choices. Entirely wrong, there are very significant social reasons why women do not pursue the same jobs as men, they are not supposed to according to social conventions. OhYeah posted:3. Women are more likely to be a victim of sexual violence, but men are more likely to be a victim of any other violent crime (the rate is generally about 3:1). Oh well that makes it OK I guess men are the real victims. Who causes those violent crimes? OhYeah posted:4. Are you speaking about the objectification of women? Because if you ask any women that get "objectified" (models, entertainment industry people, porn stars etc) if they are bothered by it they say hell no, that's my paycheck you are talking about. In any case men get objectified just the same. People want to see beautiful people in ads, TV shows and music videos. That's just the way it is. We appreciate physical attractiveness. Your value as a man is not dependent on your attractiveness, your job, your wealth, your social power are also very significant. Women are disproportionately judged on their attractiveness. How can you be so ignorant of all of this?
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Mar 6, 2016 22:27
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OhYeah posted:Hahahahahahahahhahahahahahahaha if you actually believe that. Everyone likes positive attention, regardless of their sex, religion or ethnicity.
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Mar 6, 2016 22:28
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Spangly A posted:you're actually taking the piss now aren't you, you can't possibly be that loving stupid I can walk into the office tomorrow and ask all the women in the leading positions and ask how did they manage to secure that position despite the fact that they are women and the response I will get is "u wot m8". You are living in a dream world if you think anyone is holding women back simply because they are women.
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Mar 6, 2016 22:28
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OhYeah posted:I can walk into the office tomorrow and ask all the women in the leading positions and ask how did they manage to secure that position despite the fact that they are women and the response I will get is "u wot m8". holy poo poo seriously do this I want to see you get your balls kicked so hard they come out of your mouth.
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Mar 6, 2016 22:29
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OhYeah posted:I can walk into the office tomorrow and ask all the women in the leading positions and ask how did they manage to secure that position despite the fact that they are women and the response I will get is "u wot m8".
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Mar 6, 2016 22:30
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OwlFancier posted:.How can you be so ignorant of all of this? Its called privilege
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