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Sickening posted:Who honestly gives a poo poo about this but WOTC? I am asking honestly. I just don't see how waiting benefits you, me, or anyone. The thing that gets me, is they won't talk about the issue at all outside of "we ban on certain dates" I do appreciate that they need data and so forth. That having a set date gives players an expectation. The issue is, they could change the date. Maybe Monday after set release isn't the right date? Why not 2-4 weeks after set releases, in case you release something broken then it is only in format for 2-4 weeks before being removed? The SoI update isn't about Shadows at all, it is reacting to Oath. And the Eldritch Moon B&R, should it be used, would be about Shadows cards etc.
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Mar 7, 2016 00:04
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It's not like people don't have a million other formats to play, plus local metas don't have quite as many eldrazi players, so who cares.
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Mar 7, 2016 00:04
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Orzhov pontiff leaves eldrazi player unable to actually cast any eldrazi, ralph petesh and coco keeping our last hopes alive!
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Mar 7, 2016 00:05
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Bonus posted:It's not like people don't have a million other formats to play, plus local metas don't have quite as many eldrazi players, so who cares. My local meta has been all Eldrazi since even before OGW came out. Modern events just stopped firing at some point because of it.
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Mar 7, 2016 00:05
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Yeah it's probably about preserving the principle of "you can play with these cards for at least a few months" rather than pulling the rug from under people. We can survive two months of an overpowered deck existing. And I think that is a really strange message and a strange precedence. The irony is that out of their desire to "not set a bad precedence" they have created one where when/if the next big broken deck shows itself, we are stuck with it until the next update announcement no matter what. To be able to play your broken deck you do that at the expense of everyone else. I guess if you have a warped point of view of things that might be okay for you. I would just prefer a healthier meta myself and I hope the majority would agree.
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Mar 7, 2016 00:07
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I imagine that's quite an anomaly, I've heard that most local metas aren't quite as dominated by eldrazi. My local meta is very competitive, but only 2 players are on eldrazi (and I played it before OGW). People just don't want to buy into a deck that they know will get banned.
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Mar 7, 2016 00:08
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Ok the stream is straight up dying at a pretty bad time.
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Mar 7, 2016 00:09
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jassi007 posted:The thing that gets me, is they won't talk about the issue at all outside of "we ban on certain dates" The idea with syncing releases and B&R list updates is that you want to minimize frustration. If a set comes out and you have to make a new deck based on the cards in that set, and then also a couple weeks later you have to go out and make another new deck because of the B&R changes, that's pretty frustrating.
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Mar 7, 2016 00:10
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Sickening posted:To be able to play your broken deck you do that at the expense of everyone else. I guess if you have a warped point of view of things that might be okay for you. I would just prefer a healthier meta myself and I hope the majority would agree.
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Mar 7, 2016 00:11
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I don't see how "do the same thing we have always done" is creating a new precedent.
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Mar 7, 2016 00:11
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Sickening posted:I would just prefer a healthier meta myself and I hope the majority would agree. You're playing Modern. Modern hasn't been healthy since... well, ever, but especially not since Pod was banned. Irony Be My Shield posted:I don't see how "do the same thing we have always done" is creating a new precedent. Precedence*
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Mar 7, 2016 00:13
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I don't mind having two months of a deck being broken every now and then if it means that R&D make powerful and cool new cards that affect modern. I remember about the time BFZ came out everyone was complaining about them not printing cards powerful enough for modern. So decide what you want I guess? Modern does need some good control cards, so that the next time something broken comes out the meta has tools to adapt instead of having to ban stuff again.
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Mar 7, 2016 00:14
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suicidesteve posted:You're playing Modern. Modern hasn't been healthy since... well, ever, but especially not since Pod was banned. Pod player spotted! I think modern was pretty healthy and good right before twin was banned.
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Mar 7, 2016 00:15
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Bonus posted:I don't mind having two months of a deck being broken every now and then if it means that R&D make powerful and cool new cards that affect modern. I remember about the time BFZ came out everyone was complaining about them not printing cards powerful enough for modern. So decide what you want I guess? The cards printed in BFZ aren't too strong for modern though? Bonus posted:Pod player spotted! I think modern was pretty healthy and good right before twin was banned. I definitely agree.
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Mar 7, 2016 00:18
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Bonus posted:I don't mind having two months of a deck being broken every now and then if it means that R&D make powerful and cool new cards that affect modern. I remember about the time BFZ came out everyone was complaining about them not printing cards powerful enough for modern. So decide what you want I guess? I think about the time BFZ came out people were complaining about them not printing cards powerful enough for standard. I also don't think people are contradicting themselves if they say Wood Elemental is too weak and then later say Black Lotus is too strong.
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Mar 7, 2016 00:20
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They aren't, but I'm saying that you can't complain about wizards not printing impactful modern cards and then expect the format to never get broken. It happens, and I'd much rather they ban the occasional Treasure Cruise rather than plying it too safe when making new cards
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Mar 7, 2016 00:21
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Bonus posted:Modern does need some good control cards, so that the next time something broken comes out the meta has tools to adapt instead of having to ban stuff again.
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Mar 7, 2016 00:28
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Bonus posted:They aren't, but I'm saying that you can't complain about wizards not printing impactful modern cards and then expect the format to never get broken. It happens, and I'd much rather they ban the occasional Treasure Cruise rather than plying it too safe when making new cards I agree with you to a point. New powerful cards should definitely be a thing they should keep doing. I also say that previously thinking that there would be no way WOTC would let a meta get this way considering combo winter was a thing that happened. I had confidence that if something was truely broken that they wouldn't repeat old mistakes and handle it. This whole thing was a real eye opener.
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Mar 7, 2016 00:29
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suicidesteve posted:Precedence* A thing can take precedence over another thing. When you take an action that will be relied on in the future, you are setting a precedent.
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Mar 7, 2016 00:29
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Bonus posted:Pod player spotted! I think modern was pretty healthy and good right before twin was banned. 0 times in my life. But all of the most interesting games of Modern I played were against Pod. Turn random idiots sideways until the other guy dies is not fun or interesting. Devor posted:A thing can take precedence over another thing. I know. Read the post that was being responded to in the post I quoted.
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Mar 7, 2016 00:38
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Thisuck posted:4chan's response to the Sorin/Jace/Avacyn/Tamiyo art
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Mar 7, 2016 00:38
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Bonus posted:I don't mind having two months of a deck being broken every now and then if it means that R&D make powerful and cool new cards that affect modern. I remember about the time BFZ came out everyone was complaining about them not printing cards powerful enough for modern. So decide what you want I guess? The problem is those good control cards will impact standard. You basically need counterspell in Modern, but the thought of counterspell in Standard is unthinkable (they came so loving close to printing a counterspell for Modern in BFZ too  )
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Mar 7, 2016 00:39
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TheKingofSprings posted:The problem is those good control cards will impact standard. The problem is they probably don't even want those cards in the format because WotC has no idea how to make a good format.
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Mar 7, 2016 00:43
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Abzan Supremacy!
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Mar 7, 2016 00:52
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Yeah, that's the big problem of modern in my opinion. They need to print some good control cards and other answer cards to give it a good foundation, but they can't really do that because of standard.
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Mar 7, 2016 00:59
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Angry Grimace posted:I really wonder what exactly they were thinking when Urza's block was in design, given it was coming off of a relatively low powered block. Mark Rosewater was on the development team, which really says all that needs to be said
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Mar 7, 2016 01:02
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This was nothing compared to combo winter because other formats didn't really exist then.
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Mar 7, 2016 01:06
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Barry Shitpeas posted:Mark Rosewater was on the development team, which really says all that needs to be said What does that mean besides "It was a magic set?"
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Mar 7, 2016 01:13
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born on a buy you posted:This was nothing compared to combo winter because other formats didn't really exist then. Extended, Standard, and Vintage were all formats, it's just that they were all affected. Dr. Stab posted:What does that mean besides "It was a magic set?" Development!=Design
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Mar 7, 2016 01:17
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TheKingofSprings posted:The problem is those good control cards will impact standard. Without having counterspell in modern my buddy and I have put together a U/W control deck that is like 20-7 in matches so far in modern leagues. It can't handle U/W Eldrazi based on the two matches we played, but has done fine against other types (3-1 I think) while holding it's own against most of the field. Other losses include two losses and a win against Living Ends that had tremendous land destruction hands, and a Kiki-Chord type deck with maindeck avalanche riders and Fulminators in the side - so it really struggles with decks that don't let it just play a land every turn. Grixis Control was a thing for a long time while Twin was still in the format. Control decks need to be tuned to the meta and require very specific and difficult lines of play. Our U/W control deck is awkward in that it needs 4x Path and 4x Wall of Omens to slow the game down enough to make Supreme Verdict matter, but against other parts of the field those cards are suffienciently dead that we wind up on a T2 Wall, T3 manaleak their spell, path our wall to ramp line of play. Counterspell doesn't change these things about modern that make it fundamentally broken: A) The meta is too wide such that you cannot interact with all viable decks favorably via sideboard. Compared to legacy where the unfair decks compress to Storm-style, Graveyard style, and Sneak and Show, in modern you have affinity cheating mana which requires it's own line, etc - people have to devote too many sideboard slots to individual decks rather than interaction methods. This is largely because of B and C: B) There is no speedbump to going fast like Force of Will, and holding up any amount of mana to cast a key counterspell, whether it is rewind or dismiss or counterspell or spell pierce puts control style decks on the back foot. C) There is no reasonable punishment for abusive mana bases (Eldrazi lands, establishing Tron, 3 Color or more manabases) D) The lack of all of these methods to interact with fast combo decks has forced them to remove all good card selection spells from the format.
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Mar 7, 2016 01:17
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Sigma-X posted:Without having counterspell in modern my buddy and I have put together a U/W control deck that is like 20-7 in matches so far in modern leagues. It can't handle U/W Eldrazi based on the two matches we played, but has done fine against other types (3-1 I think) while holding it's own against most of the field. Other losses include two losses and a win against Living Ends that had tremendous land destruction hands, and a Kiki-Chord type deck with maindeck avalanche riders and Fulminators in the side - so it really struggles with decks that don't let it just play a land every turn. Without a deck list, no one cares.
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Mar 7, 2016 01:36
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suicidesteve posted:Precedence* presidents*
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Mar 7, 2016 01:39
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AgentSythe posted:presidents* Add an emote or something, that was a bit of a stretch for assuming that you're not going to just confuse a bunch of people incorrectly correcting someone. Edit: Timing you out in Rich Shay's stream btw.
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Mar 7, 2016 01:44
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Dr. Stab posted:What does that mean besides "It was a magic set?"
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Mar 7, 2016 01:44
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Dr. Stab posted:The idea with syncing releases and B&R list updates is that you want to minimize frustration. And GPs and such can be a big deal for a lot of people. If I ever play in a GP* I'll probably plan to attend well in advance and I'd be keeping a sharp eye on any bannings. Having things be banned out of the blue on non-expected dates would be super annoying. I wouldn't want to have to find something new to play two weeks beforehand when I thought it was safe. * - Well if I ever attend a GP it'll be limited, but whatever.
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Mar 7, 2016 01:45
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odiv posted:And GPs and such can be a big deal for a lot of people. If I ever play in a GP* I'll probably plan to attend well in advance and I'd be keeping a sharp eye on any bannings. Having things be banned out of the blue on non-expected dates would be super annoying. I wouldn't want to have to find something new to play two weeks beforehand when I thought it was safe. Having bans announced a week before the tournament is disruptive regardless of whether it's the Official Ban Date or not, but they still do it on purpose for PT Modern every year.
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Mar 7, 2016 02:03
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kizudarake posted:Without a deck list, no one cares. Congrats on reading all of those reasons why modern sucks as a format and reducing it to a demand for a deck list. I'll post the lost when I'm home though.
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Mar 7, 2016 02:08
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Lottery of Babylon posted:Having bans announced a week before the tournament is disruptive regardless of whether it's the Official Ban Date or not, but they still do it on purpose for PT Modern every year. Well sure, but having it happen just whenever would be worse. ... Wait, I mean, source your quote? :P
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Mar 7, 2016 02:10
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Elyv posted:Extended, Standard, and Vintage were all formats, it's just that they were all affected. Extended didn't matter outside of ptq season and vintage has never been a real format.
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Mar 7, 2016 02:19
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Bonus posted:I imagine that's quite an anomaly, I've heard that most local metas aren't quite as dominated by eldrazi. My local meta is very competitive, but only 2 players are on eldrazi (and I played it before OGW). People just don't want to buy into a deck that they know will get banned. I hate to be that guy but this is literally just anecdotal evidence. Also I don't see how your local meta is that competitive if people aren't playing the power deck but again it's just meaningless arbitrary conditions.
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Mar 7, 2016 02:22
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