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It is very surprising that Tesla is not using the radar in the front of the car as part of Autopilot. I thought it was used for the adaptive cruise control pre-Autopilot, even.
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Mar 3, 2016 02:02
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Subjunctive posted:It is very surprising that Tesla is not using the radar in the front of the car as part of Autopilot. I thought it was used for the adaptive cruise control pre-Autopilot, even. I think they probably are, although someone (might even have been me) asked Musk the question in a Q&A last year.
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Mar 3, 2016 02:05
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https://www.teslamotors.com/careers/job/autopilot-softwareengineer-33510 references sensor fusion in the required experience, and this dude says he's been working on SF at Tesla already: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hyunggi-cho-63650823
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Mar 3, 2016 02:07
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Ok it was a WSJ person who asked the question: http://9to5google.com/2015/10/16/elon-musk-says-that-the-lidar-google-uses-in-its-self-driving-car-doesnt-make-sense-in-a-car-context/ I guess he was just poo-pooing LIDAR.
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Mar 3, 2016 02:57
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drgitlin posted:Ok it was a WSJ person who asked the question: http://9to5google.com/2015/10/16/elon-musk-says-that-the-lidar-google-uses-in-its-self-driving-car-doesnt-make-sense-in-a-car-context/ I wish he'd elaborated more on why he didn't think LIDAR was necessary. I get that it doesn't fit the design of the car, but that better spatial sense seems pretty high-value.
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Mar 3, 2016 04:21
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drgitlin posted:Ok it was a WSJ person who asked the question: http://9to5google.com/2015/10/16/elon-musk-says-that-the-lidar-google-uses-in-its-self-driving-car-doesnt-make-sense-in-a-car-context/ He did mention the need for redundant sensors, which is way easier to implement with cameras (being much smaller and much less expensive than LIDAR units). And for what it's worth, Subaru has adaptive cruise control based on a stereoscopic camera system instead of radar.
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Mar 3, 2016 04:26
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The problem I see with these camera systems is, what happens in a downpour or when the camera gets snow on it? Do they give the camera it's own wiper then program it to ignore the brief view interruptions?
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Mar 3, 2016 14:29
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Yeah, wipers. Brief view interruptions won't matter.
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Mar 3, 2016 14:56
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Disgruntled Bovine posted:The problem I see with these camera systems is, what happens in a downpour or when the camera gets snow on it? Do they give the camera it's own wiper then program it to ignore the brief view interruptions? From what I've read on the Norwegian forum, snow, slush and rain confuses the sensors all the time. There is some disagreement whether the camera has heaters on the window. And apparently the wipers do not cover the camera area. Subjunctive posted:It is very surprising that Tesla is not using the radar in the front of the car as part of Autopilot. I thought it was used for the adaptive cruise control pre-Autopilot, even. As I understand it, radar is used for adaptive cruise control and parking (along with near field ultrasonic sensors), and the camera for lane guidance. GPS position and map info is also used to input speed data, it will slow down before a sharp turn etc, although feedback from users indicate that it takes some slow turns too fast and some fast turns too slow. The universal answer is "use it on highways only". Ola fucked around with this message at 15:01 on Mar 3, 2016 |
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Mar 3, 2016 14:59
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Ola posted:From what I've read on the Norwegian forum, snow, slush and rain confuses the sensors all the time. There is some disagreement whether the camera has heaters on the window. And apparently the wipers do not cover the camera area. The wipers don't cover the camera area; presumably they will need to for level 4. Parking mostly involves the ultrasonics, I think, because other than Summon it's mostly not forward movement. (Summon is much handier than I thought it would be.) I have never seen any evidence that it uses map/GPS data in any way other than to know the speed limit if the camera can't pick up a sign. Could you link that? I'm surprised. It will definitely take sharp corners too fast if you let it, but those are just times to briefly revert to manual control, and then re-enable autopilot once you're through. I use autopilot for about 3/4 of my 20 min drive to work over surface streets, and it works well. (I think better in 7.1 than in 7.0 even, but that could be placebo.) At the limit, passive optical from a single location in the car has to be enough for level 4 autonomous driving, since that's all that humans have (ignoring rare audio cues like sirens)!
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Mar 3, 2016 15:16
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^^I am obscenely jealous. If they already have radar in the vehicle, seems odd that they wouldn't use it - but is this SF stuff for the Model 3/future models so they can cut down on hardware integration cost?
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Mar 3, 2016 16:29
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Subjunctive posted:Yeah, wipers. Brief view interruptions won't matter. Without a heating element, wipers don't help with freezing rain.
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Mar 3, 2016 17:10
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Subjunctive posted:
http://elbilforum.no/forum/index.php/topic,25174.0.html I don't know how well it google translates, but there are some videos in there as well. And this is adaptive cruise control only I think, but that's the same gizmo that determines speed under autopilot I assume. Ola fucked around with this message at 18:26 on Mar 3, 2016 |
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Mar 3, 2016 18:23
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I thought the Subarus cameras were inside the car on the backside of the rear view mirror like a dashcam?
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Mar 3, 2016 18:28
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Godholio posted:Without a heating element, wipers don't help with freezing rain. It's exactly the same as clearing a windshield for a human. This is not a research problem. Ola posted:http://elbilforum.no/forum/index.php/topic,25174.0.html Thanks, I'll check it out. You can definitely use TACC and Autopilot when the cell connection is down (easy to test by resetting that part of the car while driving) and there aren't map tiles available, and I've never seen it slow for a curve when there's no leading car to key off of. Clearly I'll have to do some science, it may be using the camera to detect curve sharpness, I guess. El Grillo posted:If they already have radar in the vehicle, seems odd that they wouldn't use it - but is this SF stuff for the Model 3/future models so they can cut down on hardware integration cost? SF doesn't cut down on that cost, since you still need the sensors to fuse, right? I think it would basically be ridiculous to not be doing SF for vehicle guidance. Having a basic depth sense would seem to make the vision systems a lot more effective at the limit, especially as related to novel kinds of obstacles in the road. I'll ask some CV people I know if I remember.
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Mar 3, 2016 18:56
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Subjunctive posted:It's exactly the same as clearing a windshield for a human. This is not a research problem. It's not a research problem, but it's also not the same as clearing a windshield. It's more like clearing an LED headlight, which is actually a very real problem if you live in the right climate, like 2/3 of Americans.
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Mar 4, 2016 01:16
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Godholio posted:It's not a research problem, but it's also not the same as clearing a windshield. It's more like clearing an LED headlight, which is actually a very real problem if you live in the right climate, like 2/3 of Americans. Except that the camera can be inside the windshield, as it is on the Model S. The windshield is heated by the interior of the car, which headlights can't be. (I'm very familiar with such climates.)
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Mar 4, 2016 01:29
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Subjunctive posted:Except that the camera can be inside the windshield, as it is on the Model S. The windshield is heated by the interior of the car, which headlights can't be. (I'm very familiar with such climates.) But rather foolishly it's apparently located outside the area cleared by the wipers
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Mar 4, 2016 03:33
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Mange Mite posted:But rather foolishly it's apparently located outside the area cleared by the wipers Given that the utility of it wasn't really established at design time, I'm not surprised that they didn't redesign the wipers or put the camera in a lower position. L4 autonomy will have to do differently, the Model S can't just be patched OTA for that. Figuring out "wipe the glass in the right place" is not going to be a substantial challenge along the path to autonomous vehicles. It's a silly thing to get stuck on.
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Mar 4, 2016 03:45
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Subjunctive posted:I wish he'd elaborated more on why he didn't think LIDAR was necessary. I get that it doesn't fit the design of the car, but that better spatial sense seems pretty high-value. The number one reason is LIDARs are (currently) expensive, cameras are not. LIDARs are also larger and (currently) require moving parts, which is one more thing to fail at the kinds of production levels these will have to be made at. Now when we get those solid-state LIDAR sensors on the market... 
Frinkahedron fucked around with this message at 04:59 on Mar 4, 2016 |
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Mar 4, 2016 04:57
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Frinkahedron posted:The number one reason is LIDARs are (currently) expensive, cameras are not. LIDARs are also larger and (currently) require moving parts, which is one more thing to fail at the kinds of production levels these will have to be made at. That tells you why it's not economically viable, but price doesn't change necessity. If it's not necessary at $50K, it's not necessary at $0.50.
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Mar 4, 2016 05:07
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Subjunctive posted:Except that the camera can be inside the windshield, as it is on the Model S. The windshield is heated by the interior of the car, which headlights can't be. (I'm very familiar with such climates.) Well that works. The headlight solution is a simple heating element in the lens cover, so it's not even a real challenge, just something to be designed in. Or, put it in the cabin and dodge the problem entirely.
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Mar 4, 2016 08:37
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I visited the ice planet Hoth two weeks ago. The pic is from the good weather on the way back. On the way up we had to drive in a convoy, which the road authorities organize when the weather is bad. Amongst other things, you are told to switch off windshield heating and blow cool air on the windshield. If you try to heat it, the snow melts a little bit but not enough. So you get ice buildup instead, five minutes later you are being eaten by a wampa. But with a cool windshield, it stays dry and the snow doesn't stick. Point is, if you want to keep a sensor clear and you don't have the advantage of flying above the weather, it can be complicated. Accounting for all the stuff that can cover a sensor is as complicated as having to account for all the things you might have to deal with in traffic. For lower levels of autonomy, it can just sound a sad chime and let the driver take over. But a level 4 car would be, to use the plane analogy, day VFR only. Can't be used if the weather is bad enough. And I'm guessing the Californian programmers won't spend too many months on getting it to follow instructions when driving in a snow plow convoy across the mountain...guess we'll take the hyperloop!
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Mar 4, 2016 09:39
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As a Texan that's a straight up donner party photo imho. In all seriousness with gas this cheap the downward pricing pressure on used EVs and hybrids has been increasing. I'm seeing 2013 Volts going for $12-$15k with 25-45k on the clock, leaves for around 8k, and a lone miev for 6. I've read a bunch on volt forums, but it's hard to see through the EV/Green fanboy-ism, how reliable are they really? My benchmark is a '99 Miata that I've had for 5 years and has only needed routine stuff like a battery, lights, tires, and fluids. Am I really going to get 10~ years of wear parts maintenance on a late gen 1 volt? And how shadetree-able are they really? I really hate having to take my car somewhere, and vastly prefer fixing crap myself.
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Mar 4, 2016 14:26
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Ola posted:I visited the ice planet Hoth two weeks ago. Sup top of the world frozen wasteland goon, glad you saw clear skies 😀
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Mar 4, 2016 14:59
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blugu64 posted:As a Texan that's a straight up donner party photo imho. The only non-routine item my Volt has needed in 40k miles was a new charge receptacle, because my buddy tripped on the charge cord and broke it. It's been a really good car. Kind of annoyed that gas prices may kick my resale in the teeth; I'm counting on a decent trade in to make a Model III happen.
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Mar 4, 2016 21:55
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Frinkahedron posted:The number one reason is LIDARs are (currently) expensive, cameras are not. LIDARs are also larger and (currently) require moving parts, which is one more thing to fail at the kinds of production levels these will have to be made at. It looks like someone is working on that: http://spectrum.ieee.org/cars-that-think/transportation/sensors/quanergy-solid-state-lidar
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Mar 4, 2016 23:56
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Yeah I am trying to figure out what to do between when my Leaf lease is up and my Model 3 is ready, as buying my 2014 base model leaf sounds like a poor investment, to say the least. If they're really hitting $8k maybe I can just like, buy a leaf for my wife to eventually commute with? I also wonder if it's particularly tricky or extra expensive to have a second 220v charger installed compared to the first one. Boten Anna fucked around with this message at 01:14 on Mar 5, 2016 |
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Mar 5, 2016 01:12
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Why are the leafs a bad investment? They just depreciated super rapidly? Is that just because oil is cheap and noone wants them now or something else going on?
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Mar 7, 2016 01:52
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Resale price has plummeted. I'm pretty happy with mine, $24,000 from brand new and fully loaded 2013 in 2013. Not having a used car for once feels good and it has been very reliable. Only having to worry about yearly maintenance and tires is stress free. It'd be hard to find a car as nice for the money, unless you have special needs for more miles per charge, cause the honest 40 miles in the dead of winter can be rough (below zero f). Though it is a great winter car if you can handle the miles since it hearts so quick and no need to let a motor get to running temps.
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Mar 7, 2016 02:38
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Godholio posted:Without a heating element, wipers don't help with freezing rain. These autonomous driving systems need an integrated weather sense system that senses freezing rain and decides "Hell no, I'm not driving in that poo poo." Possibly it finds the nearest hotel.
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Mar 7, 2016 03:04
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Cockmaster posted:It looks like someone is working on that: I'll believe it when it can compete with Velodyne. Still cool (if it's true).
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Mar 7, 2016 05:04
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Phuzun posted:Resale price has plummeted. I'm pretty happy with mine, $24,000 from brand new and fully loaded 2013 in 2013. Not having a used car for once feels good and it has been very reliable. Only having to worry about yearly maintenance and tires is stress free. It'd be hard to find a car as nice for the money, unless you have special needs for more miles per charge, cause the honest 40 miles in the dead of winter can be rough (below zero f). Though it is a great winter car if you can handle the miles since it hearts so quick and no need to let a motor get to running temps. I don't really have an opinion on the leaf one way or the other but the way you write sure sounds like someone with Stockholm syndrome. I've seen similar prose from Kia owners.
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Mar 7, 2016 05:41
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The car kept me on it's goon basement and only lets me leave to plug it in.
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Mar 7, 2016 06:00
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Pryor on Fire posted:Why are the leafs a bad investment? They just depreciated super rapidly? Is that just because oil is cheap and noone wants them now or something else going on? Part of it is that the pace of change for EVs and other alt-fuel vehicles is way more rapid than for ICE vehicles. It's like the first gen Prius - the second gen Prius was so substantially better that the first one's resale absolutely cratered. Since the Leaf came out, there's a much better Volt, there's hype about the Model 3, there are a number of "mainstream" plug-in hybrids, etc. Sure, none of those are pure electrics, but you have to imagine that people are cross shopping pretty heavily. Gas prices don't help. All cars except maybe air-cooled 911s are bad investments, anyway. KYOON GRIFFEY JR fucked around with this message at 14:08 on Mar 7, 2016 |
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Mar 7, 2016 14:04
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Plood? http://www.autoblog.com/2016/03/07/tesla-model-s-p100d-hacker-twitter/?ncid=edlinkusauto00000016#slide-3263422
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Mar 7, 2016 23:08
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I wonder if that's why they're dragging their asses on the 90kWh/ludicrous upgrades for P85 owners.
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Mar 7, 2016 23:50
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Part of it is that the pace of change for EVs and other alt-fuel vehicles is way more rapid than for ICE vehicles. It's like the first gen Prius - the second gen Prius was so substantially better that the first one's resale absolutely cratered. Since the Leaf came out, there's a much better Volt, there's hype about the Model 3, there are a number of "mainstream" plug-in hybrids, etc. Sure, none of those are pure electrics, but you have to imagine that people are cross shopping pretty heavily. Gas prices don't help. But Is there any meaningful risk of resale values getting even worse than they already are? When I heard about used Model S's coming down to under $50k, I was briefly tempted to start saving up for one until I remembered that that price would only apply to the ones without the autopilot.
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Mar 10, 2016 03:08
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My commute to work isn't that far so I got a EV to try and save some money. Is there an ebike thread on SA? ~Coxy fucked around with this message at 05:50 on Mar 10, 2016 |
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Mar 10, 2016 05:48
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There was an electric motorcycle thread that also included ebike chat but it closed a while ago. I've been toying around with the idea of building an ebike just for fun, got any details on yours?
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Mar 10, 2016 12:53
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