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At least the millitia conversations are alright even if the plot sucks. Punching gang members may be more batman feeling but all the gang members talking about "we hate women and eat people and swear a lot you can punch us, it's ok" got really tiring. Also: This army is Cobra and Arkham Knight is Cobra Commander. They employ sword wielding ninjas and name their tanks after snakes. Arkham Knight will get some joker/scarecrow chemical poo poo poured on him and slowly and agaonizingly lose his mind turning into a snake, hissing "I was onccccce a mannnnn..... oncccce a mannnn..."
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Mar 7, 2016 23:08
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Not a fan of The Joker riding shotgun. Not that the idea is poor, but that I just didn't want any parts of it after 3 games of what felt like the same thing. He's the Roman Reigns of this series.
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Mar 7, 2016 23:08
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Mzbundifund posted:c) Our only female ally helplessly kidnapped offscreen The only point I disagree with - Nightwing also got clowned in this game and I'm pretty sure Barbara was chosen for kidnapping for strictly plot reasons in that it stokes tensions between Gordon and Bruce and it's also a good way of stoking Bruce's own paranoia re: how much his enemies know. It's neither abnormal weakness nor unexpected inside the game's own narrative.
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Mar 7, 2016 23:15
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hard counter posted:The only point I disagree with - Nightwing also got clowned in this game and I'm pretty sure Barbara was chosen for kidnapping for strictly plot reasons in that it stokes tensions between Gordon and Bruce and it's also a good way of stoking Bruce's own paranoia re: how much his enemies know. It's neither abnormal weakness nor unexpected inside the game's own narrative. The thing about frustrating or problematic tropes, or any, really, is they can be as internally logical as the writer wants. The writer has full control over the story and can weave it however they'd like to make an outcome completely make sense. When people express frustration with that it's not just that "Oh well this is dumb in the story" or "this is out of character", but like "Oh hey another story decided to kill the black guy" or "God dammit the only good woman got helplessly kidnapped in yet another story". Because here's the deal: the writers could simply not do that, and make not doing that be logical. The fact that it's in the story was their deliberate choice.
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Mar 7, 2016 23:26
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I encourage folks to give the game an opportunity to explain its decisions. Pretty much everything people are bringing up is addressed.
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Mar 7, 2016 23:28
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Discendo Vox posted:I encourage folks to give the game an opportunity to explain its decisions. Pretty much everything people are bringing up is addressed. When you have a good explanation for why you did a lovely thing, it doesn't change the fact that you did a lovely thing. That seems to be the overarching theme of the arguments here.
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Mar 7, 2016 23:30
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FicusArt posted:The thing about frustrating or problematic tropes, or any, really, is they can be as internally logical as the writer wants. The writer has full control over the story and can weave it however they'd like to make an outcome completely make sense. Expecting writers to go out of their way to not do something just because it's a cliche, even if they have the ability to justify it just fine, is crap. If justified, even cliches can be done well regardless of their status as problematic in the eyes of real-world people or not.
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Mar 7, 2016 23:33
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:When you have a good explanation for why you did a lovely thing, it doesn't change the fact that you did a lovely thing. That seems to be the overarching theme of the arguments here. The game isn't doing lovely things to anywhere near the extent that people want it to. This: anilEhilated posted:You know, a Marxist analysis of Batman would be something to behold. is pretty worrisome if it's going to become the tenor of discussion for the remainder of the LP.
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Mar 7, 2016 23:36
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CJacobs posted:Expecting writers to go out of their way to not do something just because it's a cliche, even if they have the ability to justify it just fine, is crap. If justified, even cliches can be done well regardless of their status as problematic in the eyes of real-world people or not. anilEhilated posted:You know, a Marxist analysis of Batman would be something to behold.
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Mar 7, 2016 23:51
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I think their hands might be tied in this case, it wasn't a pure invention with many alternatives. Having someone like Tim Drake kidnapped out of costume wouldn't raise Bruce's suspicions about re: his enemies knowledge - it would outright confirm them since as a civilian he has no special value and we already have Nightwing going down in costume without that being unusual. Oracle's status as Gordon's daughter adds an element of doubt and ultimately it led to Bruce admitting his connection to Gordon when he could've just lied about it. Erosions like that aren't possible using someone else in Barbara's place and it looks like they're going to run with that decay for this story; they have everything to do with who she is rather than what she is. Someone like Fox standing in for Oracle could not accomplish all these things at once. I'll restate that this event imho seems neither abnormal nor contrived within the game's narrative. hard counter fucked around with this message at 01:39 on Mar 8, 2016 |
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Mar 7, 2016 23:53
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I think reception to Arkham Joker would be more positive if he had little schemes from time to time, letting him exist in a game without taking away from the main villain. Like, in the Long Halloween, Joker was someone Batman had to deal with, but the main issue on the table was the Holiday Killer. They kinda did something like that for Origins: Blackgate, but that game has the problem of being Origins: Blackgate. Meanwhile, in the rest of the series, Joker is the main villain of Asylum, City, Origins, and Assault on Arkham. And while Scarecrow is the main villain here, his main threat at this point is "My fear gas might turn Batman into Joker, which would make him more dangerous than me." Blueberry Pancakes fucked around with this message at 23:59 on Mar 7, 2016 |
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Mar 7, 2016 23:55
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So, if the people in Bat Jail are turning into Joker and the only female of the lot is openly acting like a crazy romantic stalker toward Batman… I guess they're basically confirming the whole homoerotic angle of the Batman/Joker relationship?
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Mar 7, 2016 23:58
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Danakir posted:So, if the people in Bat Jail are turning into Joker and the only female of the lot is openly acting like a crazy romantic stalker toward Batman… I guess they're basically confirming the whole homoerotic angle of the Batman/Joker relationship? Well, yeah. Literally one of the first things Hallucination Joker says to Batman is that they both knew that one day he'd end up "stuck deep inside [Batman]". During the last predator segment of City, he can tell Batman to "get [his] cute little rear end over to the movie theater." Joker is pretty shameless.
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Mar 8, 2016 00:01
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Inferior posted:Capitalists are a superstitious and cowardly lot.   But at least for now, I'll withhold any doubt on the overall plotting of the story. I'm still weirded out by Batman holding civilians extra-judicially and the relatively casual ease with which the game handwaves Batman not quite killing people with the momentum of an armored fighting vehicle, but the other stuff I can let slide for the time being. (Apparently the Batmobile technically isn't a tank because it doesn't have treads? Man, military hardware has a lot of terminology to wade through.)
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Mar 8, 2016 00:30
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Should have at least gotten a cutscene of Oracle busting out the ninja sticks from her wheelchair and thwapping some mercenaries in the nuts before being overwhelmed.
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Mar 8, 2016 00:34
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Hobgoblin2099 posted:Joker is pretty shameless. Sinatra's song at the very beginning of the game plays basically the same angle, but subtler. Give it another listen if you haven't yet. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XCVnV5CGh0
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Mar 8, 2016 00:45
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:When you have a good explanation for why you did a lovely thing, it doesn't change the fact that you did a lovely thing. That seems to be the overarching theme of the arguments here. Discendo Vox posted:The game isn't doing lovely things to anywhere near the extent that people want it to. This: Gotta agree with Vox here, these comments just aren't fun or interesting to read. If you want to write a marxist critique of batman, in whole or in part, this isn't the place to do it. Speedball posted:Should have at least gotten a cutscene of Oracle busting out the ninja sticks from her wheelchair and thwapping some mercenaries in the nuts before being overwhelmed. I don't know, Oracle's not physically helpless, but I'd like to think that since she knows that she probably can't beat an endless horde of mooks in a fightfight she would be smart enough to bide her time for when she can do something that'll make a difference. No point in getting knocked out when you could instead know where you are and begin to plot an escape or something. While it has nothing to do with what I've quoted, I don't see how they've made oracle look helpless. She's physically disabled, but she's willingly put herself at risk because she wants to help and believes she can make a difference. That's strength, even if it isn't the kind that lets you punch people.
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Mar 8, 2016 00:52
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Yeah the Oracle kidnapping isn't all that bad, especially as she uses it to her own advantage pretty quickly from memory. She's a person in a wheel chair that the enemy knows about and can target who lives in a secluded location whilst also being important to the enemies ability to think and plan on the fly. Her being targeted is a pretty logical choice for what amounts to a paramilitary organisation whose leader clearly has it in for Batman. Also the keeping Henry Adams locked up is meant to look bad, a large part of this game is just how far Batman has already fallen since City. The Tank is another example of that as it's a recent thing and definitely because Batman is getting Paranoid about protecting his city. Or at least more paranoid than usual. Another thing is Batman's allies are all pretty worried about him, both Oracle and Robin have questioned him already this evening compared to City where they seemed pretty okay with doing as he asked. I mean compare Robin's offer to help in City to this game, in City he says it once and is told that he's needed back in Gotham itself and agrees. Here he keeps at it for a good deal longer. Although the City thing is from memory and may be wrong.
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Mar 8, 2016 01:09
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If oracle has an entire transforming room why doesn't she have some form of security system. Like neutralizing guns or hell her own guard robot. I mean Bat mobile is remote cntroled and the army has a fleet of robot coptors and tanks, why doesn't she have a robot, surely that's in the budget if her entire room is a transformer
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Mar 8, 2016 01:18
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Acne Rain posted:If oracle has an entire transforming room why doesn't she have some form of security system. Like neutralizing guns or hell her own guard robot. I mean Bat mobile is remote cntroled and the army has a fleet of robot coptors and tanks, why doesn't she have a robot, surely that's in the budget if her entire room is a transformer Maybe she doesn't want to live in the barrel of a gun, maybe the Arkham Knight is good enough to get past all that poo poo.
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Mar 8, 2016 01:32
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Acne Rain posted:If oracle has an entire transforming room why doesn't she have some form of security system. Like neutralizing guns or hell her own guard robot. I mean Bat mobile is remote cntroled and the army has a fleet of robot coptors and tanks, why doesn't she have a robot, surely that's in the budget if her entire room is a transformer Something related has been bothering me. Isn't GCPD also partially funded by Bruce Wayne? You'd think they would get better tech than just dinky (for this game's standards) police cars and a couple choppers. And yeah, Oracle in a mecha would have been great. If she was given, say, the Batwing and related intel to you, that would've also been great. Batman doesn't seem to like sharing his tech much, even with his closest friends. I don't know much about the comics, so I have no idea how true it is to the original.
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Mar 8, 2016 01:36
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It feels like they're shamelessly ripping off the plot from an episode of B:TAS, where Scarecrow kills Barbara and Gordon goes mad and calls a hunt on Batman and poo poo gets awful and it all turns out to be fear gas hallucinations. With a side of Red Hood thrown in for good measure. EDIT: Over The Edge is the episode I'm thinking of.
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Mar 8, 2016 01:37
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Aithon posted:Something related has been bothering me. Isn't GCPD also partially funded by Bruce Wayne? You'd think they would get better tech than just dinky (for this game's standards) police cars and a couple choppers. You answered your own question: Batman doesn't trust the GCPD with bigger hardware. I mean, I could see him handing out toys to specific people (like he gave a Batphone to Gordon here) but arming the entire police force doesn't seem to me like something he'd be willing to do. Stealth edit: Batman in general seems to be a big "who watches the watchers" kind of problem: he's this tremendously powerful entity that doesn't allow himself to be held accountable to anyone but himself for his actions.
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Mar 8, 2016 02:03
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Acne Rain posted:If oracle has an entire transforming room why doesn't she have some form of security system. Like neutralizing guns or hell her own guard robot. I mean Bat mobile is remote cntroled and the army has a fleet of robot coptors and tanks, why doesn't she have a robot, surely that's in the budget if her entire room is a transformer
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Mar 8, 2016 02:19
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It's the Batman of Zur-En-:argh:
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Mar 8, 2016 02:28
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Discendo Vox posted:I encourage folks to give the game an opportunity to explain its decisions. Pretty much everything people are bringing up is addressed. Yeah. Came here to post this. Batman is a criminal, you know. Vigilantes are criminals. But he's our criminal. Batman is very similar to Prowl from the Transformers. He's an rear end in a top hat, but he's not wrong. Which is problematic I guess. CAPT. Rainbowbeard fucked around with this message at 03:21 on Mar 8, 2016 |
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Mar 8, 2016 03:19
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The Arkham Knight is obviously someone who knows Batman very, very well, but they had to go for someone unexpected. So I'm gonna keep my old Jean Paul Valley guess and also guess it's...
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Mar 8, 2016 03:41
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It's actually Ace the Bat Hound. Can't you tell from the pointed ears?
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Mar 8, 2016 03:56
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Discendo Vox posted:I encourage folks to give the game an opportunity to explain its decisions. Pretty much everything people are bringing up is addressed.  I don't think it's going to happen, but I do agree with the message you're trying to bring.
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Mar 8, 2016 04:13
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anilEhilated posted:You know, a Marxist analysis of Batman would be something to behold. Isn't that Green Arrow?
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Mar 8, 2016 04:38
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:You answered your own question: Batman doesn't trust the GCPD with bigger hardware. I mean, I could see him handing out toys to specific people (like he gave a Batphone to Gordon here) but arming the entire police force doesn't seem to me like something he'd be willing to do. It just seems to me that giving police better armor, maybe high-tech non-lethal weaponry (I don't know how that'd work, comic magic I guess) would go a long way towards saving lives. Policemen would get killed less, criminals would get killed less because policemen would be less likely to be pushed to use lethal force (like in the intro to this game). And I do realise Batman is more of a proactive "personally punch everybody responsible really hard until the trouble is gone" kind of person rather than someone who'd go around empowering others, just him being a superhero protagonist would be enough to justify that. If it was the kind of story I'm talking about, Lucius Fox would be the main character and it'd go full science-fiction. But Batman has been around for so long, I'm wondering if any comic ever tried to explore this. I think I once heard something about a series about Batman funding proxy-Batmen all around the world who fought crime in their own nations? edit: Found it. Aithon fucked around with this message at 04:46 on Mar 8, 2016 |
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Mar 8, 2016 04:40
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Aithon posted:But Batman has been around for so long, I'm wondering if any comic ever tried to explore this. I think I once heard something about a series about Batman funding proxy-Batmen all around the world who fought crime in their own nations? Christ, now I'm curious who has more infinite money than the other between Bruce Wayne, Lex Luthor, Maxwell Lord and whoever else is an established rich person.
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Mar 8, 2016 04:42
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Back in 2005 Forbes calculated this. Although numbers have undoubtedly been adjusted since then, Bruce was listed as having $6.5 billion in personal liquid assets, versus Lex Luthor at 10.1. Wayne is listed as having $9.2 billion in a more recent list, but Luthor doesn't appear there. All of these are messy because they only refer to personal holdings, not including the companies that Lex and Bruce control. Also, y'know, they're speculating about the net worth of fictional comic book characters. In any case, it seems like Lexcorp is larger and Luthor has more total assets, but they are more often tied up in his global holdings/schemes, plus in comicbook land he's repeatedly landed in jail resulting in the company being broken up and sold. On the topic of equipping the police- in case you've missed it, Wayne Enterprises has donated basically every piece of equipment that the GCPD has. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 05:08 on Mar 8, 2016 |
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Mar 8, 2016 05:04
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rotinaj posted:The Arkham Knight is obviously someone who knows Batman very, very well, but they had to go for someone unexpected. So I'm gonna keep my old Jean Paul Valley guess and also guess it's... My favorite thing about this image is the store in the background that reads "Drugs". Very self-aware.
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Mar 8, 2016 05:37
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My favorite thing is how both Batman and Batman Jones are both going the wrong way. Guys, the signal is behind you!
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Mar 8, 2016 05:53
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Discendo Vox posted:All of these are messy because they only refer to personal holdings, not including the companies that Lex and Bruce control. Also, y'know, they're speculating about the net worth of fictional comic book characters. In any case, it seems like Lexcorp is larger and Luthor has more total assets, but they are more often tied up in his global holdings/schemes, plus in comicbook land he's repeatedly landed in jail resulting in the company being broken up and sold. In a similar vein I did like they they began taking into account Wayne's philanthropy for these silly things since he backs like every other public program in Gotham. IIRC Wayne has one of the biggest revenue streams by this sort of fictional-accounting but his personal wealth is quite modest (by McDuck billionaire standards anyway) since he officially hemorrhages heaps of wealth through charities and police/arkham funding.
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Mar 8, 2016 05:56
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Yeah Wayne Enterprises single-handedly employs or funds the vast majority of Gotham.
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Mar 8, 2016 05:59
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Mzbundifund posted:My favorite thing is how both Batman and Batman Jones are both going the wrong way. Guys, the signal is behind you! *snicker* Hahha, I didn't notice that! Who is this kid, a wannabe fanboy? Got a very Bat-mite face.
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Mar 8, 2016 06:57
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My guess is also that AK=JT. And it would have been great if they just revealed the Knight's identity at his first confrontation with Batman and then went into an examination of his motivations. If it is Jason Todd I'd like to find out why he's teamed up with the villains. Is he going to betray Scarecrow and try to be a murderous double-crossing antihero? Or is he genuinely villainous as a way to get back at Batman?
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Mar 8, 2016 07:00
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Clearly there's only one person AK can be.
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