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A Winner is Jew posted:She shouldn't. It's not hindsight, the CIA and MI5 both pretty much admitted they were getting info from very dubious sources or just making poo poo up at the time. It was obvious from the start and saying that, like the majority of America, Hillary Clinton was dumb as gently caress and bought obvious bullshit doesn't make her case for office stronger.
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Mar 8, 2016 20:14
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A Winner is Jew posted:1) Thanks to FPTP we're often left with the lesser of two evils. Maybe if republicans didn't cut funding for education so loving much idiots would actually know that rather basic civics fact. STILL not acknowledging the criticisms put out there. This is one of the reasons many Americans think Dems are as bad in terms of being "politicians" as the GOP and one of the reasons many Americans don't want to vote for The Politician Hillary Clinton.
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Mar 8, 2016 20:15
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Enkmar posted:why is it so acceptable to authorize military invasion on shakey intel? were you guys that scared by 9/11 People went slightly but very patriotically insane for a few years.
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Mar 8, 2016 20:15
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A Winner is Jew posted:So yeah, 4% of the country were right about the war. And these Senators: Akaka, Daniel (D-HI) Bingaman, Jeff (D-NM) Boxer, Barbara (D-CA) Byrd, Robert (D-WV) Conrad, Kent (D-ND) Corzine, Jon (D-NJ) Dayton, Mark (D-MN) Durbin, Dick (D-IL) Feingold, Russ (D-WI) Graham, Bob (D-FL) Inouye, Daniel (D-HI) Kennedy, Edward (D-MA) Leahy, Patrick (D-VT) Levin, Carl (D-MI) Mikulski, Barbara (D-MD) Murray, Patty (D-WA) Reed, Jack (D-RI) Sarbanes, Paul (D-MD) Stabenow, Debbie (D-MI) Wellstone, Paul (D-F-L-MN) Wyden, Ron (D-OR) Chafee (R-RI). Jeffords (I-VT) But yeah let's judge the quality of foreign policy decisions by pulled-out-of-rear end numbers of what the general populace believes. That's enlightened thinking right there. Jesus Christ you people. I mean poo poo, something like 60% plus still believe Iraq had something to do with 9/11. By that logic should we invade again? It blows my mind how far some people will go to deflect/ignore any and all criticism of their chosen candidate. Hillary herself admitted that it was a colossal error on her part and she regrets the vote. Even she isn't attempting to justify it. Unzip and Attack fucked around with this message at 20:20 on Mar 8, 2016 |
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Mar 8, 2016 20:15
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A Winner is Jew posted:There was what... something like 10 million people across the US protesting? What are you even doing here? Go get some sleep buddy
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Mar 8, 2016 20:16
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McDowell posted:^ Remember the Maine Excusing our willful violation of sovereignty for hundreds of countries during the Cold War is pretty strange. Also South Ossetia and Ukraine was not something that Putin did because he thought the Iraq War gave him cover.
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Mar 8, 2016 20:18
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Gonzo McFee posted:It's not hindsight, the CIA and MI5 both pretty much admitted they were getting info from very dubious sources or just making poo poo up at the time. The CIA just had the most spectacular failure of all time, and MI5 I don't recall being the agency calling the intelligence dubious at the time (but if you have a source dated pre iraq war I would love to read it), however they did warn that going to war would give AQ the jihad they wanted.
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Mar 8, 2016 20:18
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Enkmar posted:why is it so acceptable to authorize military invasion on shakey intel? were you guys that scared by 9/11 I think it was more the politicians were scared of losing their seats instead of voting their conscience. "You're either with us, or against us!" "Ban the Dixie Chicks!","Freedumb Fries!" etc. A lot of people kind of lost their perspective and/or minds and I guess it's too much to expect a politician to rise above that.
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Mar 8, 2016 20:18
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Eschers Basement posted:Personally, I think it's going to be a terrible Hillary loss: http://www.270towin.com/maps/59Xog This seems like the likely outcome, ia ia Trump ftaghn. Also, 
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Mar 8, 2016 20:19
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We already punished Hillary for this in 2008. It's 2016 you big dumb babies, loving move on.
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Mar 8, 2016 20:20
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In a tie is it the old House and Senate that votes or the new one that was just elected? I'm guessing it's the old but the new would make a lot more sense (and thus obviously not be the way our system is set up).
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Mar 8, 2016 20:21
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Unzip and Attack posted:And these Senators: Like I said, if this is your litmus test-- that's fine. I think it's misguided. And let me apologize for my kind of assholish rhetoric early that wasn't fair.
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Mar 8, 2016 20:21
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Vienna Circlejerk posted:We already punished Hillary for this in 2008. It's 2016 you big dumb babies, loving move on. Really lovely judgment in situations of dire global impact have an expiration date now (5 years apparently). Incredible.
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Mar 8, 2016 20:21
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Vienna Circlejerk posted:We already punished Hillary for this in 2008. It's 2016 you big dumb babies, loving move on. That's great news for vets without limbs.
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Mar 8, 2016 20:21
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Nobody is saying Clinton should be let off the hook, and she hasn't and won't be. If you're worried about this vote not following her until the day she dies then rest your head and sleep easy I'm saying the real reason the Iraq War started is because Americans wanted it, and they wanted it bad. The evidence was flimsy at best but it was portrayed as solid for 24 hours a day for months on the news and by every federal agency under the he sun, and that's what sold us. I think history will view this era's greatest blunder as trickle down in the same way we scoff at the Gilded Age. Iraq 2.0 is just going to blend in with the rest of the insanity in the ME Edit - also Clinton isn't my first choice so I don't feel any special desire to protect her. I just think this is dumb and ignores a lot of what things were actually like back then Epic High Five fucked around with this message at 20:24 on Mar 8, 2016 |
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Mar 8, 2016 20:22
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:Like I said, if this is your litmus test-- that's fine. I think it's misguided. Litmus test for what?
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Mar 8, 2016 20:22
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Radish posted:In a tie is it the old House and Senate that votes or the new one that was just elected? I'm guessing it's the old but the new would make a lot more sense (and thus obviously not be the way our system is set up). It's just the House.
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Mar 8, 2016 20:22
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Guess which region is just as hosed if not more so in 2016 as it was in 2008.
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Mar 8, 2016 20:22
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Unzip and Attack posted:Litmus test for what? For who you vote for.
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Mar 8, 2016 20:23
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computer parts posted:It's just the House. Had to look it up and forgot that it's the Senate that chooses the Vice President. It would be quite funny to get a President Trump with Vice President Clinton.
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Mar 8, 2016 20:23
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Vienna Circlejerk posted:We already punished Hillary for this in 2008. It's 2016 you big dumb babies, loving move on. Sadly this ordeal is far from over, we ruined generations of lives and we're all going to be paying for it one way or another. I'm not trying to punish Hilary I'm just not especially looking to have her run my foreign policy. full disclosure Id vote for both Hil and Bern in the general
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Mar 8, 2016 20:24
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:For who you vote for. I will be voting for Clinton in the general. I wrestled with it a long time but that's what I will do. I'm not a one issue voter, though I do believe the Iraq vote casts serious doubts on whether or not Clinton will do the right thing if/when she's presented with another situation of that magnitude.
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Mar 8, 2016 20:25
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2016 is just bonkers. https://twitter.com/JuddLegum/status/707285976507404290
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Mar 8, 2016 20:25
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Unzip and Attack posted:I will be voting for Clinton in the general. I wrestled with it a long time but that's what I will do. I'm not a one issue voter, though I do believe the Iraq vote casts serious doubts on whether or not Clinton will do the right thing if/when she's presented with another situation of that magnitude. I tend to disagree because I think she learned from the mistake + pressure from her own party on it, but that's a valid point. I didn't mean to say your point wasn't valid, so I am sorry if it came off that way.
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Mar 8, 2016 20:26
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:I tend to disagree because I think she learned from the mistake + pressure from her own party on it, but that's a valid point. I didn't mean to say your point wasn't valid, so I am sorry if it came off that way. If this is the case I'd love to see something from Hilary that shows this sort of reflection on that mistake
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Mar 8, 2016 20:27
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Happy International Women's Day, comrades.
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Mar 8, 2016 20:30
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You know it sure would be great if there was a yooge thread specifically for debates regarding Hillary being literally Satan Q. Hitler and Bernie being a senile old communist, that would be great. Content: On The Media did a mockumentary which frames itself as a retrospective of the disastrous Trump presidency. It's pretty good and based on the Atlantic article by Jon Lovett which is also pretty good.
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Mar 8, 2016 20:30
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e: gently caress it. Lets not rehash this poo poo when these kinds of circular firing squads are why democrats are usually such poo poo in elections. A Winner is Jew fucked around with this message at 20:35 on Mar 8, 2016 |
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Mar 8, 2016 20:30
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Epic High Five posted:Nobody is saying Clinton should be let off the hook, and she hasn't and won't be. If you're worried about this vote not following her until the day she dies then rest your head and sleep easy I would say the economics of the time and the war are inseparable. We were in a Recession at the time and Enron/Arthur Anderson hurt economic confidence. The Iraq war was Keynesian stimulus. It is still working great because Daesh captured humvees sold to the Iraqi military so the government needs to buy more munitions.
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Mar 8, 2016 20:31
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:I tend to disagree because I think she learned from the mistake + pressure from her own party on it, but that's a valid point. I didn't mean to say your point wasn't valid, so I am sorry if it came off that way. Same. This is the one issue that gets me heated and I tend to get snarky when discussing it, so my apologies for that.  I really do hope Clinton has learned from the decision, and her statements on it do take responsibility so there's good reason to be optimistic. Doesn't "erase" the criticism, but it gives it a better context.
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Mar 8, 2016 20:32
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Unzip and Attack posted:Really lovely judgment in situations of dire global impact have an expiration date now (5 years apparently). Incredible. No, it's just a really dumb argument to have now because that specific decision is not a salient issue in this election the way it was in 2008. You're pitching a morality argument but this is politics.
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Mar 8, 2016 20:34
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Vienna Circlejerk posted:No, it's just a really dumb argument to have now because that specific decision is not a salient issue in this election the way it was in 2008. You're pitching a morality argument but this is politics. Again, my post(s) were a response to "what specific decision as Senator makes you doubt her qualifications as POTUS". I'm not trying to convince anyone not to vote for her, I'm just outlining what I believe to be a very specific and very valid criticism of her biggest decision while in office. It doesn't go beyond that, it's not a purity test, and it's not the only issue I'll vote on.
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Mar 8, 2016 20:36
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She's admitted as much on live TV. I mean, I freaking despise HRC as much as the next guy who has a problem with politicians with conservative banking, trade, and privacy policies yet a D next to their name, but don't discount HRC admitting Iraq was a massive clusterfuck during confusing times. As an aside, I'm proud to see both my VT senators in opposition to Iraqi Freedom.
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Mar 8, 2016 20:37
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I have a copy of Bob Byrd's book on the Iraq War he signed for me 
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Mar 8, 2016 20:39
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A Winner is Jew posted:e: gently caress it. So everybody else was doing it is your defense? But mommmm all my friends are doing it? Really  It's a gently caress up. Period. She's apologized for it but the question was what misgivings do you have about POTUS Clinton and her I follow the polls and even then it needs to be about 70+ percentage points thing is pretty consistent .
SirKibbles fucked around with this message at 20:44 on Mar 8, 2016 |
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Mar 8, 2016 20:41
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Unzip and Attack posted:Again, my post(s) were a response to "what specific decision as Senator makes you doubt her qualifications as POTUS". I'm not trying to convince anyone not to vote for her, I'm just outlining what I believe to be a very specific and very valid criticism of her biggest decision while in office. It doesn't go beyond that, it's not a purity test, and it's not the only issue I'll vote on. Well, that's why I brought up the elapsed time. Since 2003, she's admitted it was a mistake and she's served 5 more years in the Senate and 4 as SoS for her opponent who criticized that choice. I think that's just as important to evaluating her as the vote itself. That said, I have no illusions about the continuation of bloody foreign policy under Clinton. I just comfort myself with how much worse it could be.
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Mar 8, 2016 20:43
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Gonzo McFee posted:Guess which region is just as hosed if not more so in 2016 as it was in 2008. The Earth?
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Mar 8, 2016 20:45
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E: Nevermind.
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Mar 8, 2016 20:45
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SirKibbles posted:So everybody else was doing it is your defense? But mommmm all my friends are doing it? Really A politician doing what her constituents want even though it hosed them down the road.  Vienna Circlejerk posted:That said, I have no illusions about the continuation of bloody foreign policy under Clinton. I just comfort myself with how much worse it could be. Yeah, the US being so entrenched as the worlds police force means no matter what we're going to have a bloody forign policy for the foreseeable future.
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Mar 8, 2016 20:47
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Enkmar posted:I have to wonder why you keep falling back on character attacks when someone has an issue with actual policy positions of your candidate of choice. If Hilary didn't want to get nailed for voting for the war she should have had the prescience I apparently had to realize it was a huge mistake. Personally I was out of high school and the perfect age to be incredulous at the media ignoring the most prolific nation wide protests since Vietnam. D&D's predecessor Current Events was skeptical of Colin Powells chemical truck convoys but didn't see any way to disprove them. Remember that back then we hadn't yet had a President start a war and tank an economy based on the policy positions of the project for a new American century and the voices in his head. Fox news was.screaming that anyone that didn't go along wasn't American and no one in the media was even willing to play the truth is in the middle card. It was all tone of "why are all these kids in the streets blocking traffic? Huh weird. Coming up, do mp3s cause cancer?"
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Mar 8, 2016 20:54
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