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MonoAus posted:I don't understand why saying JSAs and Centrelink are incompetent but not malicious is so controversial. http://theconversation.com/reading-between-the-lines-of-australias-employment-services-success-story-11653 quote:By this account it wasn’t only the employment service system operated by a range of for- profit and non-profit organisations that may have been so beneficial for the labour market. The well documented declining rate of Newstart Allowance in relation to wages – the replacement rate - acted to force unemployed people off benefits presumably into casual and part-time jobs which account for such a large proportion of the Australian labour market. quote:The rigid welfare-to-work requirements on Janine meant she worked part-time as a cleaner although she sustained a repetitive strain injury which made this work very painful. She had raised a large family and had worked in her former husband’s business. She won’t be eligible for an age pension until she is 67, which means at 52 she has another 15 years of potential workforce participation. Enforcing rigid and confusing rules while interpreting them for economic gain isn't incompetence, it is malevolence. Once the whip hand is in a private hand the government can stand back and tut tut without doing anything about it. Once again the principle of putting quasi judicial rulings with real financial effects into the hands of the private sector has been broached. That was never tolerated, until recently, and will not end well. Also if you find people responding to serial buffoon Negligent better than scrolling past well formed human bodies then 
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Mar 10, 2016 03:04
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So the issue you want to raise is that you're concerned that unskilled or unglamorous jobs don't get enough respect from someone like me? That they deserve better compensation, or the people who work them at least deserve to not be looked down on as wasting their lives? Cause if so we are in furious agreement. If someone is working a job like cleaning toilets and doesn't mind staying where they are, there is nothing wrong with that and they deserve just as much as anyone to have their baseline subsistence assured. But there are also people stuck in jobs like that who were trying for something else, and couldn't find work in the field they were training for. Or people even in jobs that are more glamorous or more highly skilled and better paid, who still feel like they're wasting their lives. Or there are people who are happy and comfortable and satisfied with their jobs, but those jobs actively harm other people, and it would be better to pay them to do nothing.
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Mar 10, 2016 03:07
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In a world with basic income, Maslow's pyramid is actually upside down. Self actualisation comes ahead of economic survival. Every previous petal can blaze on like a crazy diamond, trying everything or even nothing until they find their true self. Meanwhile some other people pay like 90% income tax on their job cleaning toilets
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Mar 10, 2016 03:07
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I read the "utterly useless" thing in the context of "insecure subsistence" as going to JSA appointments.
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Mar 10, 2016 03:08
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Wasn't the point of basic income that there would soon be robots to do the toilet cleaning?
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Mar 10, 2016 03:13
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hooman posted:I think perhaps you misunderstand the argument that (at least I) was presenting. I'm not saying that individual members of centrelink are anything more than the usual spread of incompetence and indifference that you will find in any business/industry. However I think that the policies that centrelink has to run under, the woeful underfunding and cutting of frontline services and the laws made to channel people into rent-seeking JSAs are made with intent to damage the poor. And this is a completely reasonable response. I don't share all of your opinions though, and that's fine. Thanks for not implying I'm stupid or that I should be punched in the face.
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Mar 10, 2016 03:13
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Let's say that you successfully make cleaning toilets a high status high paying occupation, that still means based on principles of progressive taxation that a person who spends their day cleaning toilets cheerfully funds the lifestyle of a person who collects photos of alpacas dressed in ponchos on pinterest out of genuine respect for that person's basic human dignity. If you manage that congratulations you have reversed the entire historical course of human development.
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Mar 10, 2016 03:14
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Negligent posted:In a world with basic income, Maslow's pyramid is actually upside down. Self actualisation comes ahead of economic survival. Every previous petal can blaze on like a crazy diamond, trying everything or even nothing until they find their true self. It's not inverted, it's just that when society has the means to provide for the basic necessities of human existence people can focus on more interesting pursuits. It sounds like you want people to be stuck in unsatisfying jobs?
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Mar 10, 2016 03:15
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##vote Negligent get lynched scumbo
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Mar 10, 2016 03:15
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Negligent posted:Let's say that you successfully make cleaning toilets a high status high paying occupation, that still means based on principles of progressive taxation that a person who spends their day cleaning toilets cheerfully funds the lifestyle of a person who collects photos of alpacas dressed in ponchos on pinterest out of genuine respect for that person's basic human dignity. You have some pretty strange ideas about what humans would do if left to their own devices.
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Mar 10, 2016 03:16
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Stop tempting me out of my break, Birb. 
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Mar 10, 2016 03:17
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Toilet cleaning anecdote: I work at a primary school and we have had a number of cleaners come through over the years. When I started here, it was a retirement aged husband and wife team who also had the contract to clean the local shopping mall. They were quite proud of their business and obviously loved that they could spend time together at work, loved chatting to whoever was around while they were cleaning. Since they retired we've had another cleaner who is extremely proud of her work, loves seeing the kids and their work hanging up in the classrooms, loves feeling like she is part of the school even though she actually works for a contractor. It's not actually in the cleaning contract that they have to do any more than mop the floors and wipe the seats. When a kid blocks a toilet by ramming a whole toilet roll down there and then the next kid is so desperate to go that they just do their business on top of the blockage and then flush and flood the toilet, it's the school's responsibility to clean up this mess. The finance officer ends up doing it because she has the strongest stomach. Not every cleaner is super exploited and constantly up to their elbows in poo poo, depends on their contract. For some people it's definitely a fulfilling job that they keep coming back to.
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Mar 10, 2016 03:23
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Cartoon posted:Enforcing rigid and confusing rules while interpreting them for economic gain isn't incompetence, it is malevolence. Once the whip hand is in a private hand the government can stand back and tut tut without doing anything about it. Once again the principle of putting quasi judicial rulings with real financial effects into the hands of the private sector has been broached. That was never tolerated, until recently, and will not end well. Slightly off topic, but I always find it surprising that complaining bitterly about private enterprise rarely considers that people could in fact out compete them with a better product. Something about a free market economy.
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Mar 10, 2016 03:26
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What would be the point? You still get paid whether you provide a quality service or not. The whole problem is it's not a market system.
open24hours fucked around with this message at 03:34 on Mar 10, 2016 |
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Mar 10, 2016 03:32
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Graic Gabtar posted:Slightly off topic, but I always find it surprising that complaining bitterly about private enterprise rarely considers that people could in fact out compete them with a better product. JSAs get more money if they help a long-term unemployed find work, so it is financially in their best interest to not help people until they are long-term. We could set up a JSA tomorrow that provides better outcomes for the clients, but financially we'd get stomped by the money grubbing JSAs and wouldn't financially be able to support that model. So gently caress the free market.
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Mar 10, 2016 03:34
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People complain about harsh conditions in prison, but if they're so bad then why haven't they been outcompeted by a better prison?
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Mar 10, 2016 03:36
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Centrelink chat  I've just got off the phone to Centrelink. I've been on hold for a bit, 10:00 -> 13:30. 3.5 hours (Three and a half loving hours) all told. Transferred here and there, different numbers to call. I'm just trying to get them to approve my medical certificate for a minor thing (2 fractured vertebrae) so I don't have to start work for the dole tomorrow. Agile and efficient. I'm currently waiting on them to call me back. 
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Mar 10, 2016 03:44
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How is two fractured vertebrae a minor thing?
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Mar 10, 2016 03:46
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Mr Chips posted:what did he do? The original NBN plan called for the initial rollout to happen in major cities in order to build up a subscriber base and generate revenue which would then be used to partially finance the rollout of regional areas. Part of his minority government deal was that regional areas (read: his seat) would be given priority for the rollout. Because of that typically short-sighted "ME FIRST" bullshit that regional areas always come out with, by the time Tony got in, the subscriber base for the NBN was tiny and the finances were all upside down. Having a large subscriber base wasn't just a financial move; it was political. Trying to destroy something that large numbers of people have had a chance to experience and approve of is much harder than destroying something a small handful of people already have and won't lose if you succeed. I'm sure he didn't undermine it on purpose, but his myopia made sure it was endangered from day one. It pisses me off because the attitude is "I don't want to miss out on the thing they're building for the entire loving country so give it to me right now, even if that means jeopardising the rest of the country getting it." It's National Party politics through and through.
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Mar 10, 2016 03:48
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open24hours posted:People complain about harsh conditions in prison, but if they're so bad then why haven't they been outcompeted by a better prison? Lol at this fucker implying prison isnt a worthwhile life goal for its own sake. Fuckin hypocrite
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Mar 10, 2016 03:48
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Graic Gabtar posted:Slightly off topic, but I always find it surprising that complaining bitterly about private enterprise rarely considers that people could in fact out compete them with a better product. This would be true if the JSA sector was not a highly regulated industry where funding is based on Key Performance Indicators which are antithetical to providing good, ethical service. It is plainly not free market. A government providing all the rules, and all the funding, you can do better.
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Mar 10, 2016 03:59
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Negligent posted:In a world with basic income, Maslow's pyramid is actually upside down. Self actualisation comes ahead of economic survival. Every previous petal can blaze on like a crazy diamond, trying everything or even nothing until they find their true self. lmao look at this scrublord wannabe pulling out the humanistic theories here
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Mar 10, 2016 04:07
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Mar 10, 2016 04:14
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Blow posted:Centrelink chat lol if you don't think that the lady you talked to at Centrelink isn't literally trying to force you to commit suicide.
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Mar 10, 2016 04:18
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http://www.canberratimes.com.au/act...309-gnekm9.html I wonder how this will affect smoke machines. Also  My rights!
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Mar 10, 2016 04:29
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open24hours posted:http://www.canberratimes.com.au/act...309-gnekm9.html
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Mar 10, 2016 04:36
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Smegmatron posted:Because of that typically short-sighted "ME FIRST" bullshit that regional areas always come out with, by the time Tony got in, the subscriber base for the NBN was tiny and the finances were all upside down. Having a large subscriber base wasn't just a financial move; it was political. Trying to destroy something that large numbers of people have had a chance to experience and approve of is much harder than destroying something a small handful of people already have and won't lose if you succeed. Mr Chips fucked around with this message at 04:42 on Mar 10, 2016 |
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Mar 10, 2016 04:40
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Smegmatron posted:Because of that typically short-sighted "ME FIRST" bullshit that regional areas always come out with, This only happens because if it doesnt regional areas often get forgotten and skipped over.
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Mar 10, 2016 04:44
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Frogmanv2 posted:This only happens because if it doesnt regional areas often get forgotten and skipped over. Also as an independent Windsor was just putting his electorate first, we need more pollies who do that.
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Mar 10, 2016 04:50
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Tokamak posted:This would be true if the JSA sector was not a highly regulated industry where funding is based on Key Performance Indicators which are antithetical to providing good, ethical service. It is plainly not free market. A government providing all the rules, and all the funding, you can do better. So what are their KPIs besides the anecdotal?
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Mar 10, 2016 05:00
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Mar 10, 2016 05:05
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https://www.google.com.au/webhp?&ie=UTF-8#q=job+service+provider+kpi
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Mar 10, 2016 05:06
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MonoAus posted:And this is a completely reasonable response. I don't share all of your opinions though, and that's fine. Thanks for not implying I'm stupid or that I should be punched in the face. I'm not really a face puncher. JOKE EDIT: You stupid idiot. hooman fucked around with this message at 05:14 on Mar 10, 2016 |
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Mar 10, 2016 05:08
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 http://www.nesa.com.au/media/11324/job20services20australia20performance20management20advice.pdf
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Mar 10, 2016 05:13
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MonoAus posted:lol if you don't think that the lady you talked to at Centrelink isn't literally trying to force you to commit suicide. I think you've fallen into a common internet politics trap where rhetoric hasn't been clear about individualistic and systematic problems, and you end up conflating the two.
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Mar 10, 2016 05:13
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also in auspol kille yourself and gonna punch you in the face may as well be friendly greetings
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Mar 10, 2016 05:22
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Jintor posted:also in auspol kille yourself and gonna punch you in the face may as well be friendly greetings When in reality these are actually bad things that you would (probably) never say to another person in real life. Why is it ok here? This is a thread where people have literally discussed if it's "OK" to say "Indigenous Australian" and have decried the use of the c word.
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Mar 10, 2016 05:38
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MonoAus posted:When in reality these are actually bad things that you would (probably) never say to another person in real life. Why is it ok here? As far as I knew "kill you'reself" while a bit of a thread injoke, has steadily become more and more frowned upon. I don't know why Bogan King would want to punch you in the face. Contrasting that to terms that could be seen as racist or sexist/misogynist there's a bit of a difference, you'd never say kill yourself to someone on the street but people saying the c word are a dime a dozen, so it's worth trying to reduce it.
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Mar 10, 2016 05:55
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MysticalMachineGun posted:As far as I knew "kill you'reself" while a bit of a thread injoke, has steadily become more and more frowned upon. I don't know why Bogan King would want to punch you in the face. I'm an equal opportunity face puncher. I will punch anyone, myself included. The cat I'm looking after just got kicked by a roo. She's fine but I will happily punch anyone to make that go away.
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Mar 10, 2016 06:00
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MonoAus posted:When in reality these are actually bad things that you would (probably) never say to another person in real life. Why is it ok here? whinging is cool and fun to read
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Mar 10, 2016 06:03
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