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Snak posted:This episode is the first time Amenadiel has been fleshed out and I really liked what they did. In the books (Sandman, pre-Lucifer series), when Lucifer decides to abandon Hell he gives the key to Morpheus (The Sandman) to give away to whom he feels is the best candidate. Spoiler for a 25 year old comic - in the end, he gives the key to hell to the two angels, Duma and Remiel, who were sent to watch the proceedings of entities competing for Hell. Remiel is initially horrified that he has to leave Heaven to take over, but comes to realize that he can do good for the damned souls. Amenadiel kind of strikes me as a parallel to Remiel.  
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Mar 9, 2016 03:50
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Aleph Null posted:I think he's more pissed that Luci is going against God's Will, but he feels like he's the one being punished for it. Amenadiel seems like, as an angel, he believes that he is a part of God's design, and he is angry and confused about Lucifer not only not thinking that God's design is important, but flaunting his role in it. Also considering his line to Luci "You wanted free will" it's possible that Amenadiel doesn't even believe in his own free will and thinks that his actions are basically a part of the divine plan. When he realizes that it is possible for his course to cause him to fall as Lucifer did, it might cause him to realize that it is not his role to enforce his interpretation of the divine plan, and instead he needs to be doing the sort of things he's supposed to. Now, my last two posts have a lot of speculation based on just a few things in the last episode, so I'm really curious to see where they're going with this. I'm just happy to see that, like Dan, they aren't going the two dimensional route with Amenadiel either.
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Mar 9, 2016 03:51
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During that first scene on the beach, I really hoped Amenadiel was going to unfurl his own wings at the end, just to be a dick like that.
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Mar 9, 2016 05:25
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I think it's a point to the show's credit that we're even having the discussion. Nobody was asking any sort of motivation or ruminating future plot points about Minority Report. I mean, nobody watched it, either, but y'know.
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Mar 9, 2016 05:29
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Medullah posted:In the books (Sandman, pre-Lucifer series), when Lucifer decides to abandon Hell he gives the key to Morpheus (The Sandman) to give away to whom he feels is the best candidate. Spoiler for a 25 year old comic - in the end, he gives the key to hell to the two angels, Duma and Remiel, who were sent to watch the proceedings of entities competing for Hell. Remiel is initially horrified that he has to leave Heaven to take over, but comes to realize that he can do good for the damned souls. Amenadiel kind of strikes me as a parallel to Remiel. Having never read the comic, those two panels make it look like he flew over the horrific torture, tapped a torturer on the back, told him that he can keep doing the same horrible tortures for all eternity, but now it's for a good reason, and flew off feeling like he did a good thing without actually changing anything at all.
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Mar 9, 2016 08:16
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Remiel is like that, and salty as hell when people start messing with the divine plan of Yahweh (by his interpretation anyway) - which I really hope to see but it doesn't really fit police procedural at all playing infernal politics.
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Mar 9, 2016 08:41
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I liked that one moment when Amenadiel got caught up and was having fun as Lucifer's wing man and was all like "where to next."
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Mar 9, 2016 13:50
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Ok, this week is the first time that ratings in the demo has held, so the show looks like it's gonna be at around a 1.3, which is good for renewal hopes.
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Mar 9, 2016 17:02
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If I was fox I'd want to keep it for that sweet "based on the work of Neil Gaiman" credit that's gonna blow up when American Gods happens. Also this episode had no murder of the week, which is promising.
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Mar 9, 2016 17:33
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Snak posted:If I was fox I'd want to keep it for that sweet "based on the work of Neil Gaiman" credit that's gonna blow up when American Gods happens. I hadn't heard anything about this since HBO passed, looks like Starz is doing it now? How does that bode for the series, I've never watched any original content on there.
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Mar 9, 2016 17:49
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The only Stars original I've watched is Outlander, but it's a very high production value show.
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Mar 9, 2016 17:52
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Snak posted:The only Stars original I've watched is Outlander, but it's a very high production value show. Ash vs. Evil Dead was pretty drat good.
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Mar 9, 2016 18:28
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Spartacus was a Starz original, and people seem to like Black Sails. Fuller's the showrunner so it has a better-than-average chance of being pretty good, and an extremely good chance of getting cancelled on a cliff hanger in season 2.
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Mar 9, 2016 18:40
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Snak posted:Amenadiel seems like, as an angel, he believes that he is a part of God's design, and he is angry and confused about Lucifer not only not thinking that God's design is important, but flaunting his role in it. Also considering his line to Luci "You wanted free will" it's possible that Amenadiel doesn't even believe in his own free will and thinks that his actions are basically a part of the divine plan. When he realizes that it is possible for his course to cause him to fall as Lucifer did, it might cause him to realize that it is not his role to enforce his interpretation of the divine plan, and instead he needs to be doing the sort of things he's supposed to. This last episode actually got me wondering if Amenadiel is actually supposed to be trying to get Lucifer back, or whether he's sort of going AWOL himself. I mean, if you start from the position that God is omnipotent and omniscient, then he had to both know that Lucifer would leave Hell and have allowed it to happen. Maybe God is okay with this, and chose Amenadiel as Lucifer's long-term replacement? Then Amenadiel is like "nah, gently caress this" and goes off hunting Luci down, abandoning his post just as the guy he's after did. And we haven't seen anyone else from Heaven to back up his story, its' just been him, Luci, and Maz for non-humans on the show. I'm probably way off base, but it felt right in the moment.
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Mar 9, 2016 18:52
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WarLocke posted:This last episode actually got me wondering if Amenadiel is actually supposed to be trying to get Lucifer back, or whether he's sort of going AWOL himself. I mean, if you start from the position that God is omnipotent and omniscient, then he had to both know that Lucifer would leave Hell and have allowed it to happen. Maybe God is okay with this, and chose Amenadiel as Lucifer's long-term replacement? Well it seems like they are doing the The Lord Works in Mysterious Ways even from the angelic perspective thing. I certainly don't get the impression that God has given any of them direct instruction in quite some time. I think it's very much that Amenadiel "doesn't like things that are different". He views the divine plan as something immutable and discretely laid out. He's trying to set right what Lucifer screwed up. But it's almost a given that this is an inaccurate view of the divine plan. Snak fucked around with this message at 19:12 on Mar 9, 2016 |
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Mar 9, 2016 19:10
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Snak posted:Well it seems like they are doing the The Lord Works in Mysterious Ways even from the angelic perspective thing. I certainly don't get the impression that God has given any of them direct instruction in quite some time. It was obviously a joke, but Amenadiel did say "Why don't I go ask Father for some rain, to make it a moment" when Chloe stormed off at the auction, so the implication is that God is still around and reachable. I think it's probably just that Amenadiel hates his new job and God told him to either do it or get Lucifer back to do it instead.
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Mar 9, 2016 20:00
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ShakeZula posted:It was obviously a joke, but Amenadiel did say "Why don't I go ask Father for some rain, to make it a moment" when Chloe stormed off at the auction, so the implication is that God is still around and reachable. I think it's probably just that Amenadiel hates his new job and God told him to either do it or get Lucifer back to do it instead. I mean, I don't really see that as conflicting with what I said. One-way requests to God is basically how beings of the Christian faith interact with him. God can still be around and also not ever explain his plans or actions. edit: Also there's that scene where Lucifer summons Amenadiel by placing his hands together in prayer (and presumably "praying"), which is kind of interesting.
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Mar 9, 2016 20:34
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Shooting Blanks posted:I hadn't heard anything about this since HBO passed, looks like Starz is doing it now? How does that bode for the series, I've never watched any original content on there. Starz did Spartacus which, beyond being my favorite action show ever, was basically Downtown Abbey combined with Game of Thrones in roman times with better characters, better dialogue, copious amounts of gore&sex and a pacing which practically never dropped. It did also have one of the worst pilots of all time however. Black Sails has spectacular ship action at the beginning and end of every season but can be kinda hit and miss on the island drama.
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Mar 9, 2016 22:44
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ShakeZula posted:It was obviously a joke, but Amenadiel did say "Why don't I go ask Father for some rain, to make it a moment" when Chloe stormed off at the auction, so the implication is that God is still around and reachable. I think it's probably just that Amenadiel hates his new job and God told him to either do it or get Lucifer back to do it instead. In the pilot Amenadiel says Lucifers return to the underworld has been requested, and the implication , outright stated by Luci is that God was the one asking, with Amenadiel responding "He will not be merciful for much longer". So he is around , but would not be appearing on the planet. I do not recall if he ever appears directly in the comics.
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Mar 9, 2016 23:45
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Mar 10, 2016 00:00
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I did think it pretty weak that a little fiber optic light can mimic Holy Divinity well enough to dupe two Angels of the Lord.
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Mar 10, 2016 01:12
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zoux posted:I did think it pretty weak that a little fiber optic light can mimic Holy Divinity well enough to dupe two Angels of the Lord. Agreed, and it didn't even serve any narrative purpose either, things could have progressed the exact same if the wings were revealed and Luci was like newp, those are fakes.
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Mar 10, 2016 01:33
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Unless he burnt the fake ones and tricked Amenadiel, in which case it sets the believability of that up. It at least leaves things open ended for them to decide later.
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Mar 10, 2016 01:56
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counterfeitsaint posted:Agreed, and it didn't even serve any narrative purpose either, things could have progressed the exact same if the wings were revealed and Luci was like newp, those are fakes. It specifically established that angels can't necessarily distinguish divinity by any sort of ESP. It sets up the possibility that Luci could have burnt the fake wings (although I don't think that he did) as well as reminds us that Chloe could have some divine aspect to her that Lucifer and Amenadiel can't perceive despite being angels themselves. Yeah it didn't serve a purpose in the immediate narrative of that episode, but I think it's an important bit of world-building clarification. edit: It also fits with everything else: Maz and Amenadiel can't tell by looking at Lucifer that he's becoming mortal, Lucifer can't even sense it about himself. It potentially sets up that there could be other angelic or demonic characters posing as humans that aren't recognized as such. Lucifer can't even tell when his powers are working except by their results: He is tricked every time Chloe pretends to be falling for his charms just to mess with him. Snak fucked around with this message at 02:00 on Mar 10, 2016 |
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Mar 10, 2016 01:58
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evilmiera posted:In the pilot Amenadiel says Lucifers return to the underworld has been requested, and the implication , outright stated by Luci is that God was the one asking, with Amenadiel responding "He will not be merciful for much longer". So he is around , but would not be appearing on the planet. I do not recall if he ever appears directly in the comics. When Supernatural handled this issue God was MIA from heaven for who knows how long and the head angels were just telling people what to do and pretending their orders were from God .
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Mar 10, 2016 03:30
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I get the impression that Amenadiel is super-low in the hierarchy of angels, considering he's completely made up for the source material/show. There's an bunch of named angels in various scripture and none of them have shown up yet. Lucifer's return to hell could easily have been requested by Gabriel, Michael, Uriel (who was actually mentioned), Raphael etc.
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Mar 10, 2016 03:41
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Snak posted:It specifically established that angels can't necessarily distinguish divinity by any sort of ESP. It sets up the possibility that Luci could have burnt the fake wings (although I don't think that he did) as well as reminds us that Chloe could have some divine aspect to her that Lucifer and Amenadiel can't perceive despite being angels themselves. Also, finding dirty cops is easy. You just look for the longest IMDB resume of non-leading roles.
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Mar 10, 2016 04:18
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Yahweh might show up like he did in source, after his plan progressed far enough. Meaning last 10 issues or so when every other piece has fallen into place basically.
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Mar 10, 2016 08:53
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So am I alone in thinking that that one quick scene with Maz pulling out a Luci-feather from her little jewel box might imply that she had something to do with the wings being stolen in the first place?
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Mar 10, 2016 19:22
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WarLocke posted:So am I alone in thinking that that one quick scene with Maz pulling out a Luci-feather from her little jewel box might imply that she had something to do with the wings being stolen in the first place? No.
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Mar 10, 2016 19:42
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WarLocke posted:So am I alone in thinking that that one quick scene with Maz pulling out a Luci-feather from her little jewel box might imply that she had something to do with the wings being stolen in the first place? I think it's pretty obvious she's the one who told Amenadiel where they were.
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Mar 10, 2016 19:43
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WarLocke posted:So am I alone in thinking that that one quick scene with Maz pulling out a Luci-feather from her little jewel box might imply that she had something to do with the wings being stolen in the first place? She's gonna use that lone feather to restore his divinity as he lies dying I bet.
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Mar 10, 2016 20:27
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Eddain posted:She's gonna use that lone feather to restore his divinity as he lies dying I bet. Dumbo's Magic Feather!
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Mar 10, 2016 20:55
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Eddain posted:She's gonna use that lone feather to restore his divinity as he lies dying I bet.
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Mar 10, 2016 21:08
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Wolpertinger posted:Having never read the comic, those two panels make it look like he flew over the horrific torture, tapped a torturer on the back, told him that he can keep doing the same horrible tortures for all eternity, but now it's for a good reason, and flew off feeling like he did a good thing without actually changing anything at all.
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Mar 10, 2016 21:12
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THEY'RE MINE. I hadn't been too hot on the show until now, but that scene really nailed it.
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Mar 10, 2016 21:32
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Also having never read the comic, that first frame with the angel in it makes me hate the poo poo out of it. That's the exact same sort of arms outstretched, let me talk down to you from my moral high ground, smug as hell pose used in every tumblr comic that gets linked on these forums, where the comic is just a lazy medium for someone's latest garbage think piece.
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Mar 11, 2016 00:10
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WarLocke posted:So am I alone in thinking that that one quick scene with Maz pulling out a Luci-feather from her little jewel box might imply that she had something to do with the wings being stolen in the first place? I don't think that's what the scene implies, but I do think she was involved in the tip off. Also, how the gently caress are satan's wings so flammable?
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Mar 11, 2016 00:13
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odiv posted:I don't think that's what the scene implies, but I do think she was involved in the tip off. I assumed he had doused them in something.
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Mar 11, 2016 00:52
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I think when the Devil wants something to be on fire, it's drat well going to be on fire.
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Mar 11, 2016 00:54
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