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If unfettered free trade is the difference between 10 other people getting a sewer and clean drinking water vs me driving a 15 year old car instead of an 8 year old car, they can all suck my balls.
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Mar 10, 2016 06:57
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nelson posted:Free trade is not, and never has been, a bad idea. Only people who failed Economics would think such a thing. Mitt Romney, ladies and gentlemen.
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Mar 10, 2016 07:09
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Nelson maybe you ought to point the millions of underemployed millenials with college degrees working at Starbucks towards these plentiful and lucrative jobs, they would appreciate it.
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Mar 10, 2016 11:31
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nelson posted:FYGM? I'm not the one who hates Mexicans I hate them so much I want to give all of them a pathway to citizenship even though they entered the country illegally, I'm such a monster. I've stated my position before, there are far more people in this world who want a middle class American job and can go through the training required to get one than there are jobs available. If you open these positions up to everyone in the world who wants one then wages would be driven down and unemployment for American workers would be driven way up. You've stated that you can avoid this issue because you're super rich or skilled or whatever, many of us aren't so lucky.
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Mar 10, 2016 11:36
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nelson posted:Free trade is not, and never has been, a bad idea. Only people who failed Economics would think such a thing. actually if a nation wants to industrialize it can't do it without implementing protectionism for said industries, and if for example the US uses its might to force free trade on them they are harming that nation
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Mar 10, 2016 11:38
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It's cute that there are still morons who think that any joe off the street can just pick up some random "tech job" and start pulling in $75k a year or whatever.
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Mar 10, 2016 12:30
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Or that there aren't hard limits on exactly how many tech jobs any economy could support, especially given that China just pirates that poo poo, and India is already trying to get all tech jobs out-sourced to there.
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Mar 10, 2016 13:27
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The method of industrialization most agreed-upon and most successful, and the one which pretty much every poor country today is trying to ape, is taking massive and exploitative advantage of American domestic demand for manufactured goods, heavily subsidizing those industries through state investment to dump the goods on America and drive American companies out of the market. That doesn't sound very free-trade-y to me, but hey, I'm not a member of the neoliberal elite and don't have all my money stashed in foreign accounts and stocks. Free trade is one thing, but what's actually happening is that the US is allowing every other country on earth to step on top of it as a stairway to development, and there's no reason the US should allow that. Not to mention the geopolitical implications of this: China is openly hostile to the US and its rise has been facilitated almost entirely by American acquiescence in trade policy
icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 13:41 on Mar 10, 2016 |
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Mar 10, 2016 13:31
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-Troika- posted:It's cute that there are still morons who think that any joe off the street can just pick up some random "tech job" and start pulling in $75k a year or whatever. Look Bucky, just put down the jankem jar and learn C++!
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Mar 10, 2016 13:56
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The sequel to Oxyana involves opening a local branch of ITT Tech and turning that place right around
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Mar 10, 2016 13:57
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-Troika- posted:It's cute that there are still morons who think that any joe off the street can just pick up some random "tech job" and start pulling in $75k a year or whatever. There are no shortage of entry level help desk and other type jobs in my region. It's not the sexiest work but it generally pays better than other entry level work and can lead to a good career. There's also no shortage of skilled trade jobs, but they are generally difficult, require working in inclement weather (construction) or require working in poo poo conditions (plumbing). These jobs exist. You don't even need a college degree for them, you just have to go the apprentice route. Sure, maybe telling your friends you work for Yelp is cooler, but I'll take a paycheck over social standing any day. My two step brothers floated around for years until they became linemen for the electric company. Difficult, dangerous work, but they make bank, especially when there are storms or snowpocalypses. Both bottom out around 80k In a bad year, in a good year they are in six figures. That's meaningful money in the Midwest. People complain a lot about manufacturing jobs, but most of them were mindless no show work which were corrupted by bad unions and greedy management (steel was the industry in my area).
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Mar 10, 2016 14:47
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hanales posted:There are no shortage of entry level help desk and other type jobs in my region. It's not the sexiest work but it generally pays better than other entry level work and can lead to a good career. Your high as balls if you think there are enough entry level desk jobs for the entire unemployed and underemployed population in your region, or that any significant number of them will lead to full time employment. Additionally, how does this help people who aren't in your region and aren't near some company's data farm or corporate support center?
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Mar 10, 2016 14:59
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nelson posted:There are tons of jobs available in right here in the US in the fields of IT and healthcare. Maybe these jobs are not what some people were trained for, but it is possible to learn new skills. And to the extent that training is not available, that is an argument for more training, not less trade. There is no skills gap. There is a 'willing to pay higher wages' gap.
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Mar 10, 2016 15:32
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menino posted:There is no skills gap. There is a 'willing to pay higher wages' gap. Whoah, calm down there, you're not supposed to mention that part of free trade
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Mar 10, 2016 15:35
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Who What Now posted:Your high as balls if you think there are enough entry level desk jobs for the entire unemployed and underemployed population in your region, or that any significant number of them will lead to full time employment. My region is the rust belt, and contains Cleveland Pittsburgh and buffalo, 3 not insignificant cities. No it doesn't solve every unemployment problem, but it's a start, just like all the other things I mentioned. The only chronically unemployed folk around here generally have other issues keeping them down that are more social and cultural issues, as opposed to just there ain't no jobs. I lived in Wyoming for a while, you could get a job paying a good wage anywhere, even McDonald's started at 12 bucks an hour because there weren't enough workers available. Yet people were still unemployed. You'll never have 100% employment unless you literally force people to work.
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Mar 10, 2016 15:55
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American debt drives the world economy. Increasing the range and velocity of that debt increases America's neocolonial influence. Free trade is a function of Pentagonism. Insourcing exploitation via protectionism would be to the benefit of the monied elite not the average American.
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Mar 10, 2016 16:13
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nelson posted:Globalization has brought more people out of poverty than all the foreign aid and charity programs put together. 2. Why do Capitalists ape socialist sentiment when it comes to globalization?
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Mar 10, 2016 16:23
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Shbobdb posted:American debt drives the world economy. Increasing the range and velocity of that debt increases America's neocolonial influence. Free trade is a function of Pentagonism. Insourcing exploitation via protectionism would be to the benefit of the monied elite not the average American. It actually doesn't. The US has no effective leverage over China because of trade, for example, because the prevailing neoliberal ideology refuses to use any possible leverage it might have because the Free Trade Gods would be angry. That's why this free trade thing is a point of debate in the first place icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 16:34 on Mar 10, 2016 |
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Mar 10, 2016 16:28
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hanales posted:There's also no shortage of skilled trade jobs, but they are generally difficult, require working in inclement weather (construction) or require working in poo poo conditions (plumbing). These jobs exist. You don't even need a college degree for them, you just have to go the apprentice route. There it is. Any time that phrase pops up you know you're listening to someone who's never spent more than thirty seconds thinking about their "advice." To "just" go the apprentice route you "just have to" be apprenticed, which means in addition to "just having to" be able-bodied and young enough for someone to think you're a good investment, you "just" have to have enough connections to outrank all the family and friends who get first crack at these jobs, and most of all you "just" have to be male. So easy! All of this assuming there are enough trade jobs to absorb multiple entire failing industries, which of course there "just" aren't.
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Mar 10, 2016 16:48
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:There it is. Any time that phrase pops up you know you're listening to someone who's never spent more than thirty seconds thinking about their "advice." Thanks for cherry picking my statements. I forgot about all the female displaced steel workers in Cleveland who can't get into other trades because vagina. You understand those failing industries have been gone for 20+ years here. Others have replaced them. gently caress one of my good friends is a 5 foot tall lesbian Union iron worker dude. This isn't the 50s anymore. So we have skilled and unskilled trades, tech jobs, service jobs, and other things. We have issues with the minimum wage not keeping up with cost of living, but that's a different issue than job availability. We also still have rampant racism, xenophobia and other bigotries permeating our culture. But let's vote for the guy who sells shirts made in Malaysia. Sounds legit.
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Mar 10, 2016 17:11
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hanales posted:Thanks for cherry picking my statements. I forgot about all the female displaced steel workers in Cleveland who can't get into other trades because vagina. It's not cherry picking to point out a part of your post that was incorrect. No one is required to coddle you with "these other points were good" (they weren't) bullshit while disagreeing with something you said. Oh no I'm now I'M the cherry-picker
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Mar 10, 2016 17:30
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Why would these stupid plebes demand that their elected leaders represent THEM instead of vague ideas of transnationalism plus also the pocketbooks of international capitalists? Why??
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Mar 10, 2016 17:38
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Maoist Pussy posted:Why would these stupid plebes demand that their elected leaders represent THEM instead of vague ideas of transnationalism plus also the pocketbooks of international capitalists? Why??
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Mar 10, 2016 18:00
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:There it is. Any time that phrase pops up you know you're listening to someone who's never spent more than thirty seconds thinking about their "advice." Hanales; All of this above, plus committing to this route for life. Better hope you picked right. There isn't a second chance, because by the time you're done apprenticing, you're too old to do it in another industry. Trade work is not for everyone, it's a serious committment that should only be considered by those passionate about it.
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Mar 10, 2016 18:03
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Maoist Pussy posted:Why would these stupid plebes demand that their elected leaders represent THEM instead of vague ideas of transnationalism plus also the pocketbooks of international capitalists? Why?? Are those leaders going to actually protect them from international capitalists, or are they just going to scapegoat people who aren't really responsible for said plebes' misery, though?
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Mar 10, 2016 18:57
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icantfindaname posted:It actually doesn't. The US has no effective leverage over China because of trade, for example, because the prevailing neoliberal ideology refuses to use any possible leverage it might have because the Free Trade Gods would be angry. That's why this free trade thing is a point of debate in the first place What would we want to leverage? Our federal and consumer debts are driving capitalism. Literally something for nothing. It squeezes the lower classes in America but can you imagine where they would be without easy credit? Credit card debt alone has been exploring for the last 30 years. We don't want that carousel to stop since the whole idea is effectively unlimited free money.
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Mar 10, 2016 18:59
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hanales posted:Thanks for cherry picking my statements. I forgot about all the female displaced steel workers in Cleveland who can't get into other trades because vagina. Hahaha now let's talk about racism so I can watch you invent Black Friends out of thin air. Oooh ooh wait, we're talking about Islam now, who's your token Muslim friend? Let's go to the circus so you can tell me all about how You Knew a Juggler Once, You Know. And thank you for taking time out of your very busy and convincingly diverse social schedule to assume that the person pointing out that employment shortages don't have easy answers is in favor of exploitative capitalism. When you're getting called out on your ignorant poo poo "just" pull a random accusation out of your rear end! So easy.
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Mar 10, 2016 19:14
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Patton Oswalt @pattonoswalt 2h2 hours ago Ted Cruz is Hannibal Lecter. You CAN reason with him. Trump is Leatherface dancing with a chainsaw. Mindless. I'll take Lecter, I guess? sighs No. You. loving. Can't. You cannot reason with Ted Cruz. He's a blind ideologue that refuses to compromise and believe's he ordained by God. Ted policies on immigration and race are the loving exact same as Trump's. The only difference is? Cruz is somehow WORSE than Trump on pretty much every other issue. Women's rights? LGBT rights? Foriegn Policy? Healthcare? Trade? Check, check and check. A million times worse. I'm so sick of my fellow progressives finding cruz and rubio to somehow be better than Trump. Sorry I don't mean to rant on this, but god loving damnit. I'm so tired of this line. I can at least be empathetic if someone was stumping for Kasich or something. But please stop saying that Ted Cruz is somehow better than Donald Trump.
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Mar 10, 2016 20:34
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FuzzySkinner posted:Patton Oswalt @pattonoswalt 2h2 hours ago Cruz is a better candidiate, as he's not remotely as charismatic. He won't be riling the right wing up into a riotous frenzy like Trump might.
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Mar 10, 2016 20:39
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Looks like Patton Oswalt's slow transition from callow liberal comic to bitter conservative comic is right on schedule. Looking forward to watching him cross the Dennis Miller threshhold sometime late 2017.
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Mar 10, 2016 20:44
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He won't be riling the right up into a frenzy because he will be busy working on actual, concrete plans to destroy everything liberals like and hold dear. Trump would be AT WORST an incompetent version of Ted Cruz, if Trump woke up tomorrow and adopted all of Cruz's policy positions he still would be lacking in the ability and patience to actually get things done. Cruz is worse in every single possible way. The problem is idiots like Patton Oswalt who love to rant about politics but can't even put in 10 minutes of research to look into who Ted Cruz and Marco Rubio are and what the believe. Trump's views and statements have been constantly put in front of people for months at a time so all of these idiots who don't even know who Ted Cruz is are ranting about ORANGE HITLER TRUMP.
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Mar 10, 2016 20:45
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:Looks like Patton Oswalt's slow transition from callow liberal comic to bitter conservative comic is right on schedule. Looking forward to watching him cross the Dennis Miller threshhold sometime late 2017. FuzzySkinner posted:Patton Oswalt @pattonoswalt 2h2 hours ago You both are reading way too much into Patton Oswalt's tweet fyi. He's wrong about Cruz, but it's really dumb to see a rightward shift in his views just because of this tweet and the fact that he hates Salon.
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Mar 10, 2016 20:47
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Yes you can certainly reason with the man that hosed over his own party and shut down the government for no reason other than to increase his personal brand. You could reason with the American Psycho too until he decides to randomly kill you while dancing to Huey Lewis and the News.
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Mar 10, 2016 20:49
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MaxxBot posted:He won't be riling the right up into a frenzy because he will be busy working on actual, concrete plans to destroy everything liberals like and hold dear. Trump would be AT WORST an incompetent version of Ted Cruz, if Trump woke up tomorrow and adopted all of Cruz's policy positions he still would be lacking in the ability and patience to actually get things done. Cruz is worse in every single possible way. "Well trump's dad was in the KKK, and he's hitler, etc, etc, etc" Like...all you have to do is type in Ted Cruz's dad into youtube and you'll find video after video of that man talking about things that would make Donald Trump seem like a tumblr poster. Christ, just poke Craig Mazin on twitter for god's sake. That's his old roommate and he has not a single nice word to say about the man. (along with pretty much every other person he was in contact with at college) Ted Cruz also cozies up with people like Kevin Swanson and others that literally sound like Hitler. The media has done such a piss poor job of going after the guy. Trump at least has been ASKED about his associations and accusations. Cruz? He rarely (if ever) has. And when he has been? He'll snake out of it and play the "LIBERAL media victim card."
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Mar 10, 2016 20:54
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I'm surprised it's never come up how Cruz's dad literally said "send Obama back to Kenya." You'd think that would be sufficiently juicy enough for our modern media but I guess that would require a 0.001% reduction in Trump coverage.
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Mar 10, 2016 20:56
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Ted Cruz is a genuinely worse human being, to the point where old college associates hated him. You cant' say that about Trump. Like no single man has done more for America by simply running as a candidate than Donald Trump, which is just loving funny. And I'm not a fan of him being President either.
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Mar 10, 2016 21:00
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patton was funnier before he got rich and married I guess he was suicidal too
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Mar 10, 2016 21:03
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Majorian posted:You both are reading way too much into Patton Oswalt's tweet fyi. He's wrong about Cruz, but it's really dumb to see a rightward shift in his views just because of this tweet and the fact that he hates Salon. I'm speaking more from general observation of Oswalt's opinions over the last few years. He's definitely shifting rightward, most comedians like him do. He even wrote about it in one of his books.
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Mar 10, 2016 21:05
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You either die Mitch Hedburg, or you live long enough to see yourself become Doug Stanhope
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Mar 10, 2016 21:08
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:I'm speaking more from general observation of Oswalt's opinions over the last few years. He's definitely shifting rightward, most comedians like him do. He even wrote about it in one of his books. I think it's a pretty mild shift overall though - it mostly seems to be a disenchantment with internet callout culture, which I think is understandable, even if I don't 100% agree with it. Look at his most recent tweet, for example: https://twitter.com/pattonoswalt/status/707974227249340416 Sure, that's not a far-leftist position, but it suggests to me that he's still to the left of most of the Democratic Party (not that that's a high bar to clear). InsanityIsCrazy posted:You either die Mitch Hedburg, or you live long enough to see yourself become Doug Stanhope Don't you EVER suggest that a comedian could turn into Doug Stanhope. That's a horrible thing to say. 
Majorian fucked around with this message at 21:12 on Mar 10, 2016 |
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Mar 10, 2016 21:09
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