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admanb posted:Counter-argument: TLTs are good for the game because they give newer players the chance to win more than zero games in a tournament. Regen Poe, Brobot, Soontir, Palp Aces, whatever — they all involve ships interacting by maneuvering their firing arcs in a way that new players can understand. 'Holy poo poo, Soontir just flew in a circle' or 'Poe's dodging all my shots' are pretty readable and dramatic. There's a big Oh gently caress moment, like an Aggressor tossing 4 dice at range 3 or Palp fixing the dice. But the TLT Experience is just oh, uh, ok, you fly in a circle and roll a bunch of dice, and most things I do are pretty irrelevant. It's death by two cuts per shot and it's slow, attritional, boring, and inevitable.
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Mar 11, 2016 21:45
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It sucks pretty bad getting arc dodged and never getting to fire back for an entire match, too. Or having all your damage nullified by regen. Really any newbie is gonna have a lovely experience against any tournament quality list unless they are a great player to start.
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Mar 11, 2016 21:53
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alg posted:It sucks pretty bad getting arc dodged and never getting to fire back for an entire match, too. Or having all your damage nullified by regen. This is pretty much my experience. I took a cheap (monetarily) DeciPhantom build, and got owned. But it was fun, and I could see where I went wrong strategically and tactically, and how to improve both my play and my list. Wednesday when I played against 3 Tactician K Wings I saw nothing of that, I just died in like 4 turns with basically no recourse. THAT was not fun.
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Mar 11, 2016 21:55
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alg posted:It sucks pretty bad getting arc dodged and never getting to fire back for an entire match, too. Or having all your damage nullified by regen. At least with something like an arcdodger or regen, there are lessons that can be learned from the game about splitting up your firing arcs to give the arcdodger nowhere to hide, or concentrate on focussing a regen ship down before it gets away. All you can take away from a 4xTLT game is try to roll better then them to kill them before they kill you.
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Mar 11, 2016 21:59
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ro5s posted:At least with something like an arcdodger or regen, there are lessons that can be learned from the game about splitting up your firing arcs to give the arcdodger nowhere to hide, or concentrate on focussing a regen ship down before it gets away. Or bring a list with answers for TLT, or get in the donut hole, etc
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Mar 11, 2016 22:00
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alg posted:Or bring a list with answers for TLT, or get in the donut hole, etc But we're talking about lessons you can learn while losing and having fun playing the game. Flying into the Donut Hole is an example of that. Just telling someone to bring a list from a predetermined set of lists because otherwise they'll have a negative play experience is not an example of that. So, TLTs can teach one thing, controlling Range, which many other tournament lists can teach just as well while still being enjoyable to lose against. That's why there's hate for TLT. E: Honestly, I think the issue is specifically 4xTLTs. I don't have any problem with one or two as a support backbone piece for the rest of the list. Maybe the fix could simply be limiting the amount you can put in a list? EnjoiThePureTrip fucked around with this message at 23:56 on Mar 11, 2016 |
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Mar 11, 2016 22:49
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Ringo Star Get posted:No one playing Epic is the reason why I can't convince myself to rationalize getting the Rebel a Transport. I want Wes, but not the giant boondoggle of a epic ship. eBay, like others have suggested. Thing is, a few days ago there was a bloke selling the X-Wing from Reb Trans with all the pilot cards including Wes and my boy Porkins, but at the price point he was selling it at + shipping it was only a few bucks less than the actual retail price of the expansion itself. Pretty sure it didn't sell. Either way, that's one of the better places to catch individual cards/pilots/templates if any.
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Mar 11, 2016 22:57
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EnjoiThePureTrip posted:But we're talking about lessons you can learn while losing and having fun playing the game. Flying into the Donut Hole is an example of that. "I should consider lists enemies might easily pilot to victory against my list" is a great lesson for a new player to learn.
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Mar 11, 2016 22:58
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Losing to TLTs is boring. Losing to Soontir is exciting. TLTs are boring.
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Mar 11, 2016 23:09
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The problem with TLTs is that they poo poo on a bunch of the generic ships and that's not good for the game IMO. Yes, there are ships resistant to them, but their presence basically drops a bunch of things out of contention. Their offensive output is way too consistent, but you can't really nerf them that hard because K wings are very dependent on them to be effective.
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Mar 11, 2016 23:13
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4-LOM (27) Rage (1) Electronic Baffle (1) Tractor Beam (1) Mist Hunter (0) Ruthless Freelancer (23) Ruthless Freelancer (23) Ruthless Freelancer (23) Total: 99 View in Yet Another Squad Builder 
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Mar 11, 2016 23:15
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My Tie/FO came 4 days early, and I'll actually have it on time for the tournament on Sunday! Now time to make some last minute adjustments to my squad...
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Mar 11, 2016 23:19
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Foolster41 posted:My Tie/FO came 4 days early, and I'll actually have it on time for the tournament on Sunday! Omega Leader + Comm Relay + Juke is some of the best 26 points you can put in an Imperial list right now.
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Mar 11, 2016 23:21
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Yeah, that was what I've been wanting to use.He was pretty awesome in the last tournament I played. I'm still considering playing the Han-Farlander List I mentioned before though too, because I like the idea of using something a bit more sturdy.
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Mar 11, 2016 23:22
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Panzeh posted:The problem with TLTs is that they poo poo on a bunch of the generic ships and that's not good for the game IMO. The annoying thing for me is that they're really good at what they were intended for - loving up low-agility PWTs - but that they dealt splash damage to basically everything else in doing that, because even Soontir will eventually run out of tokens or dice luck or both when faced with 8 3 die attacks per round. I have been wondering about possible fixes for them for a while and two spring to mind: - making them so that instead of being two attacks for 1 damage, they're two attacks and if both hit, do 2 damage - means the low agility people still get pasted by them, because 1 or 0 agility won't dodge them, but the high agility people are much more likely to be able to avoid the damage. - making them un-modifiable by the attacker . No focus, no TLs, just naked red dice. Makes them a bit less reliable. Or force them to change a single hit or crit into an eye, making the second shot from a 1-focus ship a lot less likely to hit. But it's important to make sure they don't lose their intended niche of 'gently caress you, Fat Han'. Either that or just make them unique or limited to 2 per list. Only that super-screws one of the two viable Scum builds. I'd kind of like to run tank!Guri against a quad TLT list though. With Sensor Jammer, Autothrusters, Glitterstim, APT and Lone Wolf I think she would have a good chance of just never being hit by them at all, and soloing the four of them.
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Mar 12, 2016 00:28
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thespaceinvader posted:The annoying thing for me is that they're really good at what they were intended for - loving up low-agility PWTs - but that they dealt splash damage to basically everything else in doing that, because even Soontir will eventually run out of tokens or dice luck or both when faced with 8 3 die attacks per round. From experience, any ship with 3 dice, sensor jammer, and autothrusters is going to poo poo on TLTs big time. It's not that hard to find ships that absolutely poo poo on them, it just takes some contortion to find the lists where it works. I don't think Fat Han was what TLTs were created for- I think FFG genuinely just wanted to make a secondary turret that was worthwhile for the points as something other than a BTL-A4 second shot. Well, they succeeded, perhaps a bit too much. So, the thing about PWTs is that their natural counters are swarms, and swarms got shoved out by Phantoms and later, more powerful arc-dodging aces. Unfortunately, a lot of the current tech is really potent against swarms as well. A well flown TLT list has a chance against most anything, and Worlds was a good example of that- the most common list in the top 32 was quad TLT, and one of them made top 8.
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Mar 12, 2016 00:36
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Frankly, TLTs are only scary in numbers. A lone TLT is a fine, good thing! It provides reliable, consistent damage and is a great way to round out a list. My preferred fix for TLTs is to make them Unique or to increase the cost by another point or two. The latter would discourage most mass TLT lists, while the former prevents them entirely.
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Mar 12, 2016 00:39
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So, basically Brobots and Guri/Xizor then. Maybe Phantoms, or E-Wings, but E-Wings are lame except Corran who never takes anything but FCS. But of those four, three of them REALLY want FCS, not Sensor Jammer, and two don't get Autothrusters anyway. Guri wants FCS less, because she only ever gets one shot anyway, and can TL if she wants with an action. And also, Sensor Jammer is super expensive. And ships using it are utterly hard-countered by Omega Leader, and semi-hard-countered by Poe. For me, Guri is the epitome of the issue with Scum. Compare her with Soontir, the gold standard for Cool Interceptors. She's probably the best Cool Interceptor Scum have right now. So... 3 attack, 3 agility, check. Boost/Barrel roll, check. Easy-ish access to a free Focus token even whilst stressed, check - but Soontir's is more reliable and works even at long range. Access to a second upgrade to buff defence, check - but Guri's costs 2 points more, one for Virago, the other for the extra cost of SJ. Raw toughness - Guri wins that easily. +1 hull, +1 shield. In her favour there. Dials: Guri gains the 1 banks and 1 straight, in exchange for the 3-turn, otherwise broadly similar - but Soontir has a lot more green, and a lot more useful greens, especially with a green turn. Actions: she gains TL, which is nice, and Soontir does feel the lack of rerolls a lot at times, but loses Evade, so pretty much a wash, and she gets a little less tanky. Slots: EPT, check. Guri also gets Torpedos (yay, more points... oh wait...) and Illicit which is... OKish for her, but her free focus and generally strong defence make Glitterstim less attractice, and the others are meh at best. Cloak might work, but is unreliable, Inertial Dampeners are solid for a point. System is great, but we're using it for our defensive mod so we can't get an offensive one. Title - Guri's is unique, costs a point, and otherwise does much the same as Soontir's. Pilot skill. loving lol. 5 vs 9, you can't even get Guri up to minimal ace levels, she only beats Dash if she gives him initiative and takes a somewhat substandard-for-her EPT. And all the repositioning in the world helps very little at pilot skill 5 unless you're very good at gauging the blocks, and then she might not get to shoot at all. Add PTL to Guri and you get 40 points, 41 or 42 with an Illicit. 40 with Lone Wolf which is how I'd run her, thoguh I'd probably put on an illicit as well. So what do you end up with? A bit more hull and shield, nice if you his roids and debris a lot, but if you do, git gud man, and TL as an action you probably won't take because you'll be repositioning or getting double focus, an equivalent toughness in terms of upgrades, but a token stack one shorter, a slightly worse dial, and loving FOUR less PS, all for the low low price of five more goddamn points. And I know, I know, this is comparing apples to... slightly worse, more expensive apples, actually. I think it's a solid comparison to look at the best ship for a role and see how the one you're looking at stacks up to it. And consider that Poe is 38 points, Vader is 37 with Predator, his most offensive loadout, or 35 with VI, his most defensive IMO... Soontir is 35. Even Whisper is only 40 and that's with a 4 die attack and a 1-point crew on board, or 44 with Gunner which is a crazy-strong offense and probably putting too much into her. And these are all moving at PS9+. Then you get OL, at PS8, for 26 points, who just owns Guri so hard it's not funny. I'd love to try her against TLTs, and I'm going to try her as a second ship with Dengar but... Scum ought to be able to field a trip aces list and they just can't at the moment, unless JUST maybe you count both N'Dru and Talonbane or Kavil as viable aces. But whilst N'Dru is grand and packs a lot of punch for his points, he eats one of Guri's best upgrades (Lone Wolf) and is in the end, still a z95, and Talonbane folds like a wet dishtowel and only gets one action with most of his normal loadouts. Kavil is OK, I guess, but again, he's costing at a minimum 26 points, probably at least 30 with TLT, and then he's a TLT carrier >.< Ugh. I so want Scum to be good. But they're just not so good right now. Hit me with them Scum Aces, Davey. Hit me hard with them. C'mon, Scyk, StarViper and Kihraxz, one big box, 30 quid. Put Talonbane in a StarViper and give them a really good exclusive underpriced Illicit to boot. I dares ya.
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Mar 12, 2016 01:04
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Scum have 4x TLT Bossk + mini swarm or Dengar Brobots 3x JM They have pretty cool options and awesome crew / astromechs. Of course if you take away TLTs they lose a lot of strength alg fucked around with this message at 01:12 on Mar 12, 2016 |
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Mar 12, 2016 01:09
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thespaceinvader posted:I have been wondering about possible fixes for them for a while and two spring to mind: I've thought about the second option as well. It's certainly more eloquent than the Phantom nerf, which definitely helped.
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Mar 12, 2016 01:17
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There are two things wrong with TLT. 1) They're loving hopeless to fly against as a new player. TLT require a certain level of skill to even have a chance of beating them. Against things like Soontir or Brobots or Vader it's really obvious what defeated you; That guy pulled some sweet maneuvers and dodged your arcs and then he killed you. Against TLTs, if you can't read the game, it just feels like he flew in circles and you never had a chance and oh my god that was bullshit. 2) They are a auto-win against a really large portion of all lists and ships. Anything that lacks 3 green dice or amazing maneuverability is going to have a Bad Time against TLTs. They hugely reduce the desirability of a huge portion of the playing field, which makes for a smaller variation in lists and playstyles. There's a reason why the meta has never had a single list (VSP) be so popular before. I don't think they're too powerful; They're just really non-interactive and unfun, and are a little too good against a little to large a percentage of the ships in the game.
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Mar 12, 2016 01:19
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Geisladisk posted:There are two things wrong with TLT. To be fair, most of the stuff that was good already still is good against TLTs- the imperial ace lists that changed from RAC/Fel to Palpatine/X/X still absolutely poo poo on the same things TLTs tend to poo poo on. It leaves a lot of the generic field in the dust, at least for scum and rebels. Bandits and protos are still okay when that's all you have the points for, but 24 points of TLT tends to be more reliable than 2 bandits, and on a turreted ship, that's a problem, IMO. Most of the ace lists that were good still are good. Fat Han left the picture, but he was on his way out anyway, IMO, from wave 6 onward due to the power of lists like ion hogs and brobots and generally the thought that Fat Han was mostly a silver bullet for phantoms which weren't dominant anymore.
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Mar 12, 2016 01:27
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Geisladisk posted:There's a reason why the meta has never had a single list (VSP) be so popular before. I think you don't rememeber Phantoms, or Fat Han.
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Mar 12, 2016 01:28
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Geisladisk posted:There are two things wrong with TLT. Isn't 'a little too good against a little too large a percentage of ships in the game' pretty much the definition of 'too powerful'? THis is what bugs me. I want to try out cool, fun lists that have interesting mechanics. I bring a cool fun list with interesting mechanics - say, Omega Ace with PTL, Omega Leader with Juke and Comm, and Whisper with Sensor Jammer, ACD and Gunner. And before the end of turn 3, OL and OA have been deleted by massed die rolling by ships that have a relatively easy time of range control and which are impossible to get shots on without getting shot yourself, have 5 loving shields each to eat up OA's pilot ability, and rarely modify dice much to kill off OL's as well. Whisper survives a round or two longer, but without having killed a K-wing, and having gotten double stressed by one of them and missed two rounds of shooting, she's now the only one left and can easily be kept in range forever if she wants to even stand a chance of getting shots off, and despite getting 4 dice and a free focus, and knocking over a hit on each shot, she's nonetheless eating 6 shots a round. Her green dice fail pretty quickly. I know this list isn't impossible, Paul Heaver beat it in worlds, but it's drat sure demoralising to play against. It's one of the few x-wing matches where I genuinely have not enjoyed playing the game. Because there just wasn't really a game. alg posted:Scum have I don't count stuff that's not released yet in this, but Dengar looks like he will be good, as will the loo boats wolf pack. I've never seen Bossk/Miniswarm be a thing, in competitive play I'd really struggle to run a YV simply because any time anyone gets behind it they can just chip it to death with no fear of reprisal forever. As of pre-wave-8, Brobots and Thug Life were basically it for scum. For sure they have a lot of cool options, but very few of them are actually cool AND good. thespaceinvader fucked around with this message at 01:33 on Mar 12, 2016 |
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Mar 12, 2016 01:29
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40 point Xizor and a Binarye Pirate miniswarm is a good list. 
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Mar 12, 2016 01:36
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Strobe posted:40 point Xizor and a Binarye Pirate miniswarm is a good list. It's an alright list(switching out four of the pirates for two TLTs is probably something to do there but Xizor isn't amazing despite being the best of scum's PS9 aces)
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Mar 12, 2016 01:38
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Strobe posted:40 point Xizor and a Binarye Pirate miniswarm is a good list. Ok. Let me know how that goes in Store Champs season. I've not played against it, I don't know for sure how it would look, but I know z95s die easy.
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Mar 12, 2016 01:39
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Panzeh posted:It's an alright list(switching out four of the pirates for two TLTs is probably something to do there but Xizor isn't amazing despite being the best of scum's PS9 aces) Friend of mine has been switching out the five Zs for three Ys with AB Turrets. Apparently it works pretty well. I'll see him at the SC tomorrow and we'll see how it goes. thespaceinvader posted:Ok. Let me know how that goes in Store Champs season. I've not played against it, I don't know for sure how it would look, but I know z95s die easy. It worked well enough last season! I haven't seen it a lot this year, but the idea is that the Zs force you to destroy all of them before you even try to shoot Xizor. He tanks up, and if you manage to get a hit through to him it just goes to the Zs anyway. They're easier to hit, so they're the obvious first targets, and you end up with a 3 attack ship that is basically immune to taking damage until it's the last ship on the board.
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Mar 12, 2016 01:43
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Geisladisk posted:There are two things wrong with TLT. Not sure how long you've been playing but before this wave the game was always dominated by this list or that. It's the nature of games in the Internet era. People search out the easiest list to play and win and play it.
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Mar 12, 2016 01:45
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alg posted:Not sure how long you've been playing but before this wave the game was always dominated by this list or that. It's the nature of games in the Internet era. People search out the easiest list to play and win and play it. "That's the way things have always been" is still a lovely excuse for half-assing a thing even in the internet age.
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Mar 12, 2016 02:19
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Eh, even if the internet didn't exist, it doesn't take many games against TLTs to figure out that they''re both dull AF and very solid, and from there to figuring out that four TLT y wings fit in a list isn't exactly a jump. Same with pre-nerf Phantoms, at a guess, though I didn't see it in person.
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Mar 12, 2016 02:33
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The only thing wrong with TLTs is being able to take four of them in a list; if you couldn't take 4Y with TLT they'd be much more balanced. A 3k list with TLTs isn't nearly as intimidating to me as 4 Ys with TLT (and R5/R2 or Unhinged Astro too, because why not).
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Mar 12, 2016 02:41
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3k is horrible for me, I'd far prefer 4 Ys. At least you can donut hole Ys and get range 1 bonuses to try and take them down without eating 3 (or 4, for Miranda) dice to face for your trouble. And at least the Ys don't have regen and tactician... I hate hate hate the PWT on the K wing, it just means you cannot do anything to them without getting shot.
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Mar 12, 2016 02:44
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Elitist nerds getting all uppity about losing to "less skilled players" using TLTs rather than expertly flown high PS arc dodgers just makes me like the TLT even more. Get over that poo poo. Ita just as annoying to play against somebody who gets like 30 games a week in on vassal before going to his flgs with a beep boop optimum build as it is to face spam.
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Mar 12, 2016 02:47
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Reynold posted:Elitist nerds getting all uppity about losing to "less skilled players" using TLTs rather than expertly flown high PS arc dodgers just makes me like the TLT even more. Get over that poo poo. Ita just as annoying to play against somebody who gets like 30 games a week in on vassal before going to his flgs with a beep boop optimum build as it is to face spam. What about relative newbies who don't play on vassal at all and get maybe 3 games in a week, but like actually playing a strong tactical game that gets shat all over by 6 or 8 3 die attacks with no way to get out of the way or shoot back without taking return fire? I love playing against good players using high-skill lists with arcs and post-dial movement, it's an education and a joy to watch a highly skilled Soontir or Vader outguess me and take my list apart. I learn a lot from watching it and playing it. I've not said anything about less skilled players, by the by. The 3-k-wing player the other night was the best player in my local club, by some margin, and there was some skill on showin gauging where I would end up for tacticians, and I very nearly managed to avoid his tacticians with Whisper which might have made me able to nail a single K if I had done.. But it didn't make it any less boring or frustrating to play against a list where the entire game was decided in the first 3 or 4 turns, and entirely by just chucking buckets of barely modified dice at each other.
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Mar 12, 2016 02:52
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Kai Tave posted:"That's the way things have always been" is still a lovely excuse for half-assing a thing even in the internet age. Ok. But that wasn't what he said. He said this was the first time one list was popular. It isn't. Edit: people won't stop complaining until there are no possible counters to the triple ace list alg fucked around with this message at 03:09 on Mar 12, 2016 |
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Mar 12, 2016 03:01
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I think we can all mostly agree that TLTs are among the best, worst thing to happen to the game. Best because it broke the meta wide open, away from the two ship fat turret paradigm that held sway since the end of the Phantom era. Worst because they are boring as gently caress to play against en masse.
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Mar 12, 2016 03:12
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I think we can all mostly agree that TLTs are among the best, worst thing to happen to the game. Best because it broke the meta wide open, away from the two ship fat turret paradigm that held sway since the end of the Phantom era. Worst because they are boring as gently caress to play against en masse.
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Mar 12, 2016 03:12
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ConfusedUs posted:I think we can all mostly agree that TLTs are among the best, worst thing to happen to the game. Yeah, I agree. I do think we can all mostly agree that TLTs are among the best, worst thing to happen to the game. Best because it broke the meta wide open, away from the two ship fat turret paradigm that held sway since the end of the Phantom era. Worst because they are boring as gently caress to play against en masse.
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Mar 12, 2016 03:26
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ConfusedUs posted:I think we can all mostly agree that TLTs are among the best, worst thing to happen to the game. Yeah this is basically where I'm at. It's fine that FFG wanted to make a turret secondary card that was decent, but I don't really view it as an unmitigated success to say "we've successfully shifted the meta to the new hotness of turret spam after the old meta of fat turrets." They aren't even overwhelmingly dominant in a Borg Spheres sense, that's not even the point. Everyone else has said it already, they're boring as gently caress to play for or against, don't teach any lessons you can't learn against other ships, go against the entire part of the game that's based on flying well to line up your shots, and if you want to see something that spells the end of three ace lists you sure aren't gonna loving find it in an upgrade that singlehandedly makes whole swathes of generic ships a liability to fly.
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Mar 12, 2016 03:26
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