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tsob posted:Were Mika's words the "final lie"? Or were McGillis? Or Gaelios? They all qualify, really. McGillis spent a significant amount of this episode buttering up Carta and Gaelio when his personal thoughts were clear that he very clearly expects both of them to die. Gaelio's words were also a "final lie" to Cartabut I don't think they have as much significance to where the plot is moving so much as someone trying to comfort a dying friend.
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Mar 13, 2016 15:19
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tsob posted:Were Mika's words the "final lie"? Or were McGillis? Or Gaelios? I think the "final lie" is Mika realizing McGillis is working both sides. Considering his reaction to it.
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Mar 13, 2016 15:25
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Kanos posted:I would ordinarily agree with you entirely, but this situation wasn't really a negotiation. Carta showed up and started posturing again just like she did in the previous battles, only this one had an even bloodier and sadder ending. She and her co-pilots didn't need to pop their hatches to attempt to negotiate with an actively belligerent enemy any more than a tank commander needs to pop his hatch while in hostile territory, and her companions getting crabhammered isn't really any different from said hypothetical tank commander getting his head blown off by a sniper. It's not a war crime, it's a poor tactical decision in a hostile environment. If they were at a negotiated ceasefire meeting or conference or anything more formal than Carta showing up and one-sidedly demanding an honor duel against people who had absolutely no obligation to give her one, then it would be criminal, but, welp. The red flag seems to be a sort of limited truce, requesting that both sides chat out stakes, time, and a form of combat acceptable to them in order to minimise collateral damage. Like a white flag, but slightly less so. So if Orga had replied 'nope, not acceptable, attacking you now', that would have been an unchivalrous move but still kinda-sorta OK - they offered terms, he said no, combat begins. Just killing them as soon as they came into range? Not so much. Carta could have blown up the tracks or just started raking the train with 120mm rounds as soon as she showed up, killing everyone, civilian or combatant alike, on board. Going in with a red flag and weapons lowered wasn't just silly posturing like what she tried on the island (remember that her unit did actually start shooting straight away there - they just tried for a pose-off once they landed), but a good-will effort to reduce the number of people who had to be put in danger. That generally requires an answer, even if the answer is 'no thanks, we'll take our chances'.
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Mar 13, 2016 15:31
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Kanos posted:I mean, I know mecha anime as a genre has kind of acclimated us to seeing people pop their hatches in combat to talk to each other all the time so it's kind of a normal thing in shows with robots but that's a really loving stupid and suicidal thing to do and your opponent is under no obligation to not loving kill you for it unless you're actively surrendering(which Carta and company were not). I mean yeah but I think we have to let the genre play to its tropes at least a little here, which, all the context given, Mika taking the crabhammer to all three of them was far more vicious than it had any right to be and I thing is further setting up Tekkadan's end-of-season downfall. Even saying that yeah, Mika's never been one to really "fight honorably" in the series at all, taking the last few episodes altogether shows a really, really quick downward slide.
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Mar 13, 2016 15:32
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I feel like we're going to go around in circles a bit with this and I don't really want to be seen as advocating Mikazuki's actions, because I'm not. I think we agree with the direction the plot is going and the message they're trying to convey: Tekkadan in general and Mikazuki in particular are rapidly approaching a precipice. Even taking my original statement into account, I feel that the Merribit scene was effective for the reason that Merribit seems to have entirely forgotten what Tekkadan is. All of these kids are broken on some level. None to the same level as Mikazuki, but all of them are child soldiers that have seen a lot of war and death and killing, quite possibly more than even she has since she's a business administration type; her trying to shield their eyes from the beating/murder going on because she thinks of them as normal children is simultaneously hopelessly naive and incredibly tragic, which is even more poignant because her role was supposed to be the voice of experience and guidance to these kids. That's incredibly hosed up if you sit back and think about it and I think that was part of the point of the scene.
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Mar 13, 2016 16:21
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I was half-expecting the final scene to be a flashback of Mika and Biscuit where that whole "not quitting" conversation was completely made up. But then I realized that's not Mika's motivation at all.
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Mar 13, 2016 16:23
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Kanos posted:All of these kids are broken on some level. None to the same level as Mikazuki, but all of them are child soldiers that have seen a lot of war and death and killing, quite possibly more than even she has since she's a business administration type; her trying to shield their eyes from the beating/murder going on because she thinks of them as normal children is simultaneously hopelessly naive and incredibly tragic, which is even more poignant because her role was supposed to be the voice of experience and guidance to these kids. I thought the kids in the scene were acknowleding the fight's ugliness for a second by saying they had to watch it, but that's a bit too adult and they talked about seeing the revenge through shortly afterwards so probably not. Tae posted:I was half-expecting the final scene to be a flashback of Mika and Biscuit where that whole "not quitting" conversation was completely made up. But then I realized that's not Mika's motivation at all. Mika's motivation is making Orga stick to his guns. A lie would facilitate that. I don't know that he did lie, but the line didn't really sound too like Biscuit. It could have been him making an admission in an usual tone, but it may also have been a lie and it wouldn't surprise me.
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Mar 13, 2016 16:28
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This episode was brutal. I literally say holy poo poo when I saw Einborg's state. I really agree that Tekkadan seems to be heading for a fall though. They're really setting up the idea that this behavior is hosed up and that Mika is sort of losing it. This episode is about lies and I think a big one is that Mika's behavior is something he's justifying to himself. When he's giving his speech about why he has to fight he ends it with basically saying "no, even if that wasn't true, I'd still kill you." Even his allies were commenting on how brutal and gross his tactics were. They're not stupid tactics but you also can't argue they're necessary. Considering they have 3 A-V units who already effortlessly chumped more of these guys and Mika probably could have straight-up soloed these guys. It took them a long time but they're doing a good job setting up Gaelio. He's kind of the most sympathetic person in the show at the moment which is shocking for a dude who is kind of a genuine rear end in a top hat whose goal is to kill children. Literally everyone around him is loving with him and the only person who seems to genuinely be his ally just got turned into a literal living weapon. He's not so sympathetic he isn't really still a villain but he isn't as unsympathetic or cartoonish as basically every other villain on the show either. Edit: Also I'm fairly sure this episode continues to strongly push the "McGillis is an adopted war orphan" point with things like the reveal that he just learned to read and ate like he was starving and so-on. He could still just be from a lovely down-on-their-lucky family but if so it's being presented as not being meaningfully different considering "learning to read" is a big thing they're pushing with the Tekkadan orphans. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 17:26 on Mar 13, 2016 |
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Mar 13, 2016 17:22
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A subtle but important detail is that Ein has three whiskers, something only achieved by Mikazuki so far.
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Mar 13, 2016 18:05
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Ein still sucks and his character arc is probably the one part of this show I absolutely hate. Tekkadan has just now gotten obsessed with revenge, and it's a compelling direction considering how far they've made it without going too crazy (Mika aside). Ein is just a one note character and it genuinely irritates me that he makes it to the last episode because he's a Martian too. Really...thats all he has going for him.
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Mar 13, 2016 18:17
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Kanos posted:A subtle but important detail is that Ein has three whiskers, something only achieved by Mikazuki so far. While the number of connectors is the same, Ein's setup looks even more potent and sophisticated than Mika's. We may actually see a Zaku beat a Gundam here.
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Mar 13, 2016 18:17
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Shinjobi posted:Ein still sucks and his character arc is probably the one part of this show I absolutely hate. Ein is a poor Martian who chose a different path from Tekkadan but devoted his life to the person who gave him guidance and respect, who is now out for revenge and has chosen to view his enemies as obstacles to be crushed instead of people. He's paralleling Tekkadan and Mika fairly hard at this point. There's nobody else who can be a meaningfully thematic foe for them at this point except maybe McGillis and at this point either McGillis is just gonna be sidelined until Season 2 or whatever they do with him is gonna be rushed as poo poo. I'm pretty on-board the "there has to be a season 2" train at this point just because I can't see any possible way this can end in 2 episodes, short of like "Tekkadan gets crushed but Kudelia achieves her goal and moves forward with the memory of the people who brought her that far in mind" or something which just seems unlikely. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 18:28 on Mar 13, 2016 |
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Mar 13, 2016 18:26
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What really got me about that Ein scene was how happy and upbeat he seemed about being an eighteen-metre-tall abomination. 
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Mar 13, 2016 18:32
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Oh god this is not going to have a happy ending. It hit me at the start of the episode that Carta surrounds herself with blond men because McGillis... You all kept calling for Mika to do what he did this episode last episode, hope you are happy. What really scares me is Makanai just shrugs it off. This is the guy you want to put in power. From the preview I wouldn't be surprised if Mika starts going at it with the Turbines by the end of this. At this point the ending just hurts because most of these people are hosed and this group gathering is never happening. This poo poo sucks. The mangled Barbatos in the opening doesn't help. The harem ending is probably out of the window now. Maybe next season Cookie and Cracker get gundams and I can have some slight happiness back. Fat and Useless fucked around with this message at 18:48 on Mar 13, 2016 |
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Mar 13, 2016 18:41
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Fat and Useless posted:Oh god this is not going to have a happy ending. So Cookie and Cracker can become beaten down by the unrepentant war machine? No thanks.
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Mar 13, 2016 18:48
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Logicblade posted:So Cookie and Cracker can become beaten down by the unrepentant war machine? No thanks. I am certain that two young children whose brothers both died horrible deaths getting both A-V surgery and Gundams would lead to a happy time for everyone.
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Mar 13, 2016 18:52
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Fat and Useless posted:Maybe next season Cookie and Cracker get gundams and I can have some slight happiness back. * finger on monkey's paw curls shut *  
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Mar 13, 2016 18:55
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So this show has to end with Galieo just putting one right in Macky's skull after everything comes to light, right?
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Mar 13, 2016 19:00
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God I even feel like it's possible now. poo poo I made myself sadder.
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Mar 13, 2016 19:06
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man mika basically admitting to himself that he didn't care if Carta was going to come back or not, he was going to kill her anyway. was hosed up. Mika is likely going down as one of my favorite gundam protagonists of all time. He's just such an good departure from the norm.
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Mar 13, 2016 19:07
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Fat and Useless posted:God I even feel like it's possible now. poo poo I made myself sadder. When he does it Macky will just smile and say "I told you your conscious would be what reforms Gallajhorn"
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Mar 13, 2016 19:39
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So now I have to wonder if we will get Einborg and Cartaborg as a package deal. I agree that we're probably going to see a second season or a horrible rush job of an ending like Reconguista did in the last five minutes.
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Mar 13, 2016 19:46
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Double posting like a bozo.
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Mar 13, 2016 19:46
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It just hit me that this is episode 23. Yeaaaah.
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Mar 13, 2016 19:50
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I guess it's just the six stars of Gjallahorn now.
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Mar 13, 2016 20:10
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Darth Walrus posted:* finger on monkey's paw curls shut * And suddenly things don't seem all that bad for Daryl over in Thunderbolt.
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Mar 13, 2016 20:35
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:So this show has to end with Galieo just putting one right in Macky's skull after everything comes to light, right?  on Gaelio pulling the trigger right in front of his kid sister, for the extra kick to the nads.Anyhew, I hope Franken Ein lives up to at least some of the build-up he's been getting. And that he doesn't completely "borrow" his new look from Jeremiah Gottwald.
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Mar 13, 2016 20:48
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AradoBalanga posted:
I don't think we're actually going to see Ein or at least if we do it will only be briefly as his robot is destroyed. I kind of hope we don't as the hint they gave this episode is actually way more horrific than actually seeing it.
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Mar 13, 2016 21:35
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Tae posted:It just hit me that this is episode 23. Every episode makes a season 2 feel more and more necessary. Tekkaden seems to be going down a road to hell, and Mikazuki's waiting at the gates for everyone to stop dragging their feet. At least Orga doesn't seem to have completely lost it yet. Despite the speech last episode, he calls Mika back to just get the train moving again instead of letting him go to murder more Gjallarhorn. And of course, Makanai seems like he's just trying to use Kudelia and Tekkadan, like almost everyone else. Not seeing a way for things to turn around in just two episodes. This is going to be interesting.
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Mar 14, 2016 00:13
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I think the end of the season will be Tekkedan winning a victory but in so doing establishing McGillis's new status-quo and establishing him as the season 2 antagonist. It's interesting that McGillis so strongly follows the Char template, we see other parallels with previous incarnations of the franchise but he barely seems to deviate.
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Mar 14, 2016 00:47
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BizarroAzrael posted:I think the end of the season will be Tekkedan winning a victory but in so doing establishing McGillis's new status-quo and establishing him as the season 2 antagonist. McGillis has not really been open about his goal beyond it involved a reformation of Gjallerhorn but it isn't clear what that means. If he's motivated by revenge it's being kept pretty firmly secret. Rather than Char being a noble pretending to be a common soldier, McGillis is actively embracing being a noble but using that as his front for whatever he's doing with his Yugioh Villain Persona. However it's really hard to say what that means because he's kept everything under his ridiculous wig. A big problem with figuring out McGillis is that it's pretty hard to tell when he's being honest. You can kind of reliably assume that he really does want Gjallerhorn to undergo a reformation and Kudelia to become a rallying point but the reasoning why is hard to tell. Today's episode really gives the idea that he genuinely did consider Carta and Gaelio friends but also that he was manipulating the gently caress out of them and seems perfectly willing to tell them whatever he needs to in order to send them on their way to die. His conversation with Carta in particular is really hard to read because he could be somewhat honest or he could just be saying what he knows will get her back onto the battlefield and dying ASAP. I don't think he's 100% dishonest but I get the feeling he's never actually told anyone outside of his own head the truth.
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Mar 14, 2016 01:15
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ImpAtom posted:McGillis has not really been open about his goal beyond it involved a reformation of Gjallerhorn but it isn't clear what that means. If he's motivated by revenge it's being kept pretty firmly secret. Rather than Char being a noble pretending to be a common soldier, McGillis is actively embracing being a noble but using that as his front for whatever he's doing with his Yugioh Villain Persona. However it's really hard to say what that means because he's kept everything under his ridiculous wig. Everything he said he was 100% honest about. He even said as much. But in that honesty he pushed her to do something that would suit his needs, and probably end up with her dead. Which is why in his inner monologue he said that those two were genuine friends but he has to do this to reform Gjallerhorn.
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Mar 14, 2016 01:57
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The true barbarity of Mika is the trail of disabled vets he leaves in his path. Hes must be over burdening Gjallerhorn's VA.
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Mar 14, 2016 02:25
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Gaj posted:The true barbarity of Mika is the trail of disabled vets he leaves in his path. Hes must be over burdening Gjallerhorn's VA. Now, Gjallarhorn's janitors, those guys are cursing his name every time they have to scrub out a cockpit before the techs can rebuild the mobile suit. Also, assuming we get a season two, here's a batshit insane idea I had while thinking about the whole "Biscuit and Fumitan died, so who's next from that frame in the end credits" thing: Kudelia will die, Atra will take up her role as leader of the revolution.
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Mar 14, 2016 02:50
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I do find myself wondering how much of what happened in this episode was brought on by Mika's increasing desire to push Orga/enjoying combat and how much of it was brought on by Mika's "They hurt my friends MURDER MURDER MURDER" mode. We've seen concrete evidence of what happens to Mika's mood when somebody simply threatens or almost hurts one of the people he views as friends or family. Carta and company actually killed one. On reflection I'm not sure this was a calculated "Mika is pushing Orga" thing so much as Mika hearing Carta's voice(he's really good with voices, see chocolate man) and just going Incredible Hulk. His expression after stomping the dude is pretty  .
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Mar 14, 2016 02:53
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Yeah, I didn't get the feeling that this was calculated at all. What I got was that Mika was just Done with Gjallerhorn and ready to murder them if they even so much as look like they're getting in Tekkadan's way.
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Mar 14, 2016 02:57
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so is ein just a torso attached to the mobile suit? At this rate I'm calling Orga having to put Mika down like a rabid dog.
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Mar 14, 2016 03:08
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Kanos posted:I do find myself wondering how much of what happened in this episode was brought on by Mika's increasing desire to push Orga/enjoying combat and how much of it was brought on by Mika's "They hurt my friends MURDER MURDER MURDER" mode. We've seen concrete evidence of what happens to Mika's mood when somebody simply threatens or almost hurts one of the people he views as friends or family. Carta and company actually killed one. On reflection I'm not sure this was a calculated "Mika is pushing Orga" thing so much as Mika hearing Carta's voice(he's really good with voices, see chocolate man) and just going Incredible Hulk. it's pretty clearly not calculated, because other tekkadan members were like "poo poo mika's wrecking the suits so badly that were not going to be able to salvage anything from them." This was Mika in pure murder mode. Monaghan fucked around with this message at 03:34 on Mar 14, 2016 |
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Mar 14, 2016 03:30
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Monaghan posted:it's pretty clearly not calculated, because other tekkadan members were like "poo poo mika's wrecking the suits so bad they were not going to be able t salvage anything from them." This was Mika in pure murder mode. Pretty sure that line was Shino referring to the fact that he was getting fired up about dueling and Mika spoiling it by singlehandedly wrecking everyone.
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Mar 14, 2016 03:35
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Kanos posted:Pretty sure that line was Shino referring to the fact that he was getting fired up about dueling and Mika spoiling it by singlehandedly wrecking everyone. I assumed that since happened right after Mika completely crushing the cockpit and Akhiro going "that's brutal" meant that they weren't going to be able to salvage the suit, but that's just me. In any case, I didn't see much strategic thinking from Mika in this fight at all.
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Mar 14, 2016 03:39
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