Eastern Europe: Olivier's sphere of influence

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Cat Mattress: Jul 14, 2012; by Cyrano4747

waitwhatno posted:

What is this talk about a full NATO membership? Is it some conspiracy theory?

Poland wants more NATO bases on its territory. Normally you'd expect a country to want the only military bases on their country to be their own, but I guess having NATO bases is a way to have military presence without footing most of the bill for it.

https://euobserver.com/justice/131697
http://blogs.wsj.com/brussels/2016/01/05/growing-support-for-a-nato-force-in-eastern-europe-but-no-new-bases/

And Russian gloating on the subject:
http://sputniknews.com/military/20160204/1034227016/nato-bases-poland-disappoint.html

# ? Mar 13, 2016 12:17

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# ? May 10, 2024 17:04

anilEhilated: Feb 17, 2014; But I say fuck the rain.; Grimey Drawer

It's also a way to make sure there will at least be a fuss when Russia comes to visit.

# ? Mar 13, 2016 12:23

Pizdec: Dec 10, 2012

waitwhatno posted:

What is this talk about a full NATO membership? Is it some conspiracy theory?

In the contexty of the summit, I think it's mostly a symbolic expression to make the event seem like a bigger deal than it actually is, just like hosting the Olympics makes you a real country or something.
Although you never know with Macierewicz (the minister in question), the guy is completely nuts and looks and acts like the goddamn Master.

Case in point, just one day after the aforementioned speech about closer ties with our awesome NATO allies, the guy goes on record stating that Americans have no business criticising PIS for treating the Constitutional Tribunal like a clown car, since it's absurd that "people who built their state as late as the 18th century are telling us what democracy is", whereas the Polish state totes had democratic systems as early as the 13th century (Fun Fact: There was no unified Polish state in the 13th century, as it had fragmented into a collection of Kleinstaaterei-like bickering, independent provinces).

# ? Mar 13, 2016 13:12

Gantolandon: Aug 19, 2012

Pizdec posted:

In the contexty of the summit, I think it's mostly a symbolic expression to make the event seem like a bigger deal than it actually is, just like hosting the Olympics makes you a real country or something.
Although you never know with Macierewicz (the minister in question), the guy is completely nuts and looks and acts like the goddamn Master.

Case in point, just one day after the aforementioned speech about closer ties with our awesome NATO allies, the guy goes on record stating that Americans have no business criticising PIS for treating the Constitutional Tribunal like a clown car, since it's absurd that "people who built their state as late as the 18th century are telling us what democracy is", whereas the Polish state totes had democratic systems as early as the 13th century (Fun Fact: There was no unified Polish state in the 13th century, as it had fragmented into a collection of Kleinstaaterei-like bickering, independent provinces).

Not to mention that Poland straight out didn't exist through most of the time when the modern democratic states were forming itself. The Commonwealth was partitioned into oblivion in 1795 (and it wasn't a democracy by any reasonable standard). The first independent democratic Polish state was created in 1917, but it very quickly degenerated into semi-authoritarianism. After 20 years it was curb-stomped by the Third Reich, annexed and turned into a large version of a concentration camp, then "freed" and reestablished as a Soviet puppet state. In best case, Poland was a democracy (in its usual meaning) for maybe 35 years summarily.

# ? Mar 13, 2016 13:26

twerking on the railroad: Jun 23, 2007; Get on my level

drilldo squirt posted:

The world today involves a mod from a website I post at trolling a major nation state using twitter.

# ? Mar 13, 2016 14:36

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Friendly Humour posted:

You should go on actually, your work is methodologically really interesting. In no way to denigrate it, it just seems like such a simple principle of looking up social media for images and people that I'm a bit dumbfounded that it's innovative. I guess it's the problem is as you say mostly about one of time and effort, what you're doing is some hardcore investigative journalism in terms of how much investment it requires. Pointing out to editors "Hey! You should give your people time to do some journalism! Thanks!" shouldn't be an innovation, but I guess it is nowadays.

I've found that traditional newsrooms are facing pressure financially thanks to the shift of advertising from print to online, and sites like Buzzfeed and Mashable who get massive traffic from cat pictures and listicles are actually taking the money and investing it in investigative journalism. Outside of that it seems from my limited experience there's an increasing number of NGO type organisations doing investigative journalism, like the BIJ and OCCRP. We're actually planning to do a training event with the OCCRP in June that will train them on the sort of work we do, then we'll work together on live investigations in Ukraine to get the ball rolling, then support those investigations remotely long term. It's also been interesting to see non-English open source investigation teams get going, especially in Russian, and we've keep in close contact with many of them. If we're thinking in terms of a digital space national borders don't exist as they do in real life, the real barriers online are language, so I think it's important to proactively attempt to engage across the language barrier, which is one of the reasons my first full time hire speaks Russian, and why we're planning to soon launch a version of Bellingcat where all our posts are full translated to Russian. It's also the same reason we're working with the OCCRP, as they already having pre-existing crossborder networks in many countries.

Friendly Humour posted:

I do actually wonder why your sources haven't been metaphorically internet blackbagged and had their social media pages and everything scrubbed. If I was KGB officer and some of my polite green men did a very dumb thing, securing all potential sources would be the first thing on my list of priorities. It seems ridiculous that information about the AA brigade was just left laying around on the net for anyone to look at.

Well that assumes they would have known this sort of information was all over the place waiting to be pieced together, and elsewhere that hasn't seemed to have been the case. Now they have the issue that if they start removing this stuff it'll look like they have something to hide.

# ? Mar 13, 2016 17:11

anilEhilated: Feb 17, 2014; But I say fuck the rain.; Grimey Drawer

Brown Moses posted:

Well that assumes they would have known this sort of information was all over the place waiting to be pieced together, and elsewhere that hasn't seemed to have been the case. Now they have the issue that if they start removing this stuff it'll look like they have something to hide.

That or they simply don't care - it's not like anyone is getting prosecuted over it. Easier to express outrage at filthy truth-perverting wannabe journalists to provide a simple explanation for the sympathisers and just ignore the rest.

# ? Mar 13, 2016 17:46

Cat Mattress: Jul 14, 2012; by Cyrano4747

There were scrubbings, all the "yay we shot down a plane, hurray" tweets disappeared pretty quickly after they found out it was a civilian airliner.

# ? Mar 13, 2016 17:59

lollontee: Nov 4, 2014; Can't post for 10 years!

It's going to be really interesting to see how Kremlin reacts when those reports are translated, I'm hoping for an absolute shitfit soon as they start going around the opposition networks.

# ? Mar 13, 2016 18:59

Horns of Hattin: Dec 21, 2011

I'm sorry to disappoint, but they're not going to care that the translated works of some CIA-recruited failed journalist with a Turkish wife to boot are being hosted on some dead gay internet forum because all the important mass-media sources are state controlled.

# ? Mar 13, 2016 19:52

Elukka: Feb 18, 2011; For All Mankind

Hmm yes the Russian government that keeps going DO NOT LISTEN TO THIS GUY THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO IT repeatedly through the media and now direct from government ministries will probably not care at all.

The internet is a thing. Bellingcat might be difficult to stumble onto for the average person... except the government keeps talking about it.

# ? Mar 13, 2016 19:59

anilEhilated: Feb 17, 2014; But I say fuck the rain.; Grimey Drawer

I believe the idea is to put an alternate spin on the events out there and let the desinformation machine do its job. As I said before, it provides an explanation the supporters can use - it's not talking about the event, it's just smearing Bellingcat. As such, it's addressed to pro-Russia crowd as opposed to actually rebuking anything.

anilEhilated fucked around with this message at 20:05 on Mar 13, 2016

# ? Mar 13, 2016 20:02

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Elukka posted:

Hmm yes the Russian government that keeps going DO NOT LISTEN TO THIS GUY THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO IT repeatedly through the media and now direct from government ministries will probably not care at all.

The internet is a thing. Bellingcat might be difficult to stumble onto for the average person... except the government keeps talking about it.

We actually get pretty widespread coverage in Russian language media, with our last big report on the 53rd Brigade the RBC.ru article on our report had around half a million views alone, plus we had coverage from BBC Russia and various major Russian language news sites in other countries than Russia, so it was easily discoverable by anyone who spoke Russian.Our basic rule is anyone can reprint our articles as well, so blocking Bellingcat won't be particularly effective if Russia decides to do that.

# ? Mar 13, 2016 20:26

Horns of Hattin: Dec 21, 2011

Elukka posted:

Hmm yes the Russian government that keeps going DO NOT LISTEN TO THIS GUY THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO IT repeatedly through the media and now direct from government ministries will probably not care at all.

They've been doing it already only because Europe does have a free press and Bellingcat publishing in English, Dutch and German is making it a tad awkward and embarrassing for the relevant European politicians to continue shaking hands with the Kremlin while shoveling Russian money into their pockets.

# ? Mar 13, 2016 21:12

HUGE PUBES A PLUS: Apr 30, 2005

Well, this is not good at all.

http://katu.com/news/local/serbia-portland-bound-combat-missiles-found-on-passenger-flight

quote:

BELGRADE, Serbia (AP) - Serbia's authorities are investigating reports that a cargo package bound for the U.S. containing two missiles with explosive warheads was found on a passenger flight from Lebanon to Serbia.

N1 television said the package with two guided armor-piercing missiles was discovered Saturday by a sniffer dog after an Air Serbia flight from Beirut landed at Belgrade airport.

Serbian media say documents listed the final destination for the AGM-114 Hellfire missiles as Portland, Oregon. The American-made projectiles can be fired from air, sea or ground platforms.

Local media said the missiles, which are about 1.5 meters in length, were packed and labeled as model rockets.

N1 reported Sunday that Air Serbia is helping in the investigation. The Serbian flag carrier says "security and safety are the main priorities for Air Serbia."

Any idea if Katu.com is a decent news site or not?

# ? Mar 13, 2016 23:56

Young Freud: Nov 26, 2006

HUGE PUBES A PLUS posted:

Well, this is not good at all.

http://katu.com/news/local/serbia-portland-bound-combat-missiles-found-on-passenger-flight

Any idea if Katu.com is a decent news site or not?

I was just Googling "Hellfires" to see if that length quote was accurate and the top story is about this from CNBC, sourced through Associated Press, so it looks like it's legit.

# ? Mar 14, 2016 00:01

Discendo Vox: Mar 21, 2013; We don't need to have that dialogue because it's obvious, trivial, and has already been had a thousand times.

The massive Atlantic piece that's been making the rounds has a substantial section devoted to Putin and the Ukrainian invasion. The quote below is just the start:

quote:

The president�s unwillingness to counter the baiting by American adversaries can feel emotionally unsatisfying, I said, and I told him that every so often, I�d like to see him give Vladimir Putin the finger. It�s atavistic, I said, understanding my audience. �It is,� the president responded coolly. �This is what they�re looking for.� He described a relationship with Putin that doesn�t quite conform to common perceptions. I had been under the impression that Obama viewed Putin as nasty, brutish, and short. But, Obama told me, Putin is not particularly nasty.

�The truth is, actually, Putin, in all of our meetings, is scrupulously polite, very frank. Our meetings are very businesslike. He never keeps me waiting two hours like he does a bunch of these other folks.� Obama said that Putin believes his relationship with the U.S. is more important than Americans tend to think. �He�s constantly interested in being seen as our peer and as working with us, because he�s not completely stupid. He understands that Russia�s overall position in the world is significantly diminished. And the fact that he invades Crimea or is trying to prop up Assad doesn�t suddenly make him a player. You don�t see him in any of these meetings out here helping to shape the agenda. For that matter, there�s not a G20 meeting where the Russians set the agenda around any of the issues that are important.�

# ? Mar 14, 2016 01:06

Vincent Van Goatse: Nov 8, 2006; Enjoy every sandwich.; Smellrose

HUGE PUBES A PLUS posted:

Any idea if Katu.com is a decent news site or not?

It's a local TV news station, so yeah more or less it is.

# ? Mar 14, 2016 01:17

OddObserver: Apr 3, 2009

Apparently an anti-Trump protest took a decidedly Eastern European flavor:

That's the flag of the Free Territory, the anarcho-communist faction in Ukraine during the civil war (associated with Nestor Makhno)

# ? Mar 14, 2016 03:32

Horns of Hattin: Dec 21, 2011

I was going to pass this up, but it too good good not to be translated, since the closest most Americans would get to seeing how propaganda works is Fox news, which is grade-school level at best by Russian standards, and therefore have no real understanding of how propaganda works. Here, an opinions journalist is being asked to comment how the recent (Jan 2016) ruling on the Litvenenko case directly implicating Putin in the murder would affect Putin's popularity in Russia, but it is easily applicable to Bellingcat's reports, etc.

L. Radzihovsky posted:

If we are to assume that the accusations levied against Putin are meant for the Russian audience, then these accusations work exactly like a boomerang after being re-interpreted by Russian television - that is, they work only in Putin's favor.

As you know, nobody is going to scour the Internet, and nobody is going to read the British judge's lengthy reports. The only people [in Russia] who would do so are the 100,000 weirdos who didn't need convincing anyway, who hated Putin long before the report, are Putinophobes, etc. The ordinary person receives their information from television. And the television would obviously not disclose the details of the British report. The specific charges that the British or Americans have leveled against Putin would not be told.

Instead, the TV says the following: Anglo-American "justice" is accusing us (the word we shows up immediately - not Putin, not the FSB, not Lugovoy - but us). That is, the viewer immediately knows which side of the barricade they're on. So the viewer, the whole audience, all of us together, everyone in Russia is being accused of murder and other crimes.

Thus, the viewer's defensive reflex is the first to be activated. Next, the television does not talk about the content of the charges, this or that evidence, these or those accusations, but only explains why the accusations were being made.

And they were being made in order to undermine our, that is, the viewer's position on the world stage. The accusations were made because we (the audience and Putin together) are hated by the West, because we (the audience and Putin together) are feared by the West, because our (the audience's and Putin's) influence on the world stage has increased and is continually increasing. And the West needed to find some means to counter this. And they counter it with their propaganda. That is, we [Russia] does not employ propaganda, but the West obviously does. And that propaganda is targeted squarely against Russia.

Then, one of the classic techniques of Russian television is to invite some fool into the studio - be it a western dimwit (a "useful idiot" as Lenin said), or some Soviet gink playing the part of a pro-western liberal - who would, stammering and stuttering, speak unbelievable nonsense [in support of the accusations] before being shouted down after a minute of speaking.

And it's plainly demonstrated to everyone, firstly - that they are wretches, who always lose. Secondly, that they have absolutely nothing to say [to back up their accusations]. And thirdly - that they were so easily beaten and defeated in the TV studio - just as easily as they get beaten and defeated by us [Russia] all across the globe. They are weaklings, fools and wretches - whether in the TV studio or outside of it. And due to their own powerlessness, and due to their own stupidity, and due to their inherent wretchedness, the only means left for them is to attempt to use their propaganda machine and try to slander us [Russia].

These are classical techniques, which, on one hand, exude enormous confidence and superiority. As portrayed by Putin - it's a calm, imposing superiority. As portrayed by the [pro-Russian] TV show participants - it's hysterical screaming, aggression and foaming at the mouth. And as portrayed by the TV host - it's a mix. On one hand the host is as imposingly confident as Putin, and on the other hand, he's as aggressive and spasmodic as Zhyrinovsky.

And that's the whole effect of any and all western accusations leveled against Putin. Moreover, had those accusations not being made, then the Russian television would not be able to find sufficient material to fill its broadcasting schedule, nor would it have anything that Putin and the audience (or rather, the audience and Putin) needed defending from. So all that the West accomplishes is toss some juicy material for Russian TV to chew on and little else.

# ? Mar 14, 2016 04:43

Mc Do Well: Aug 2, 2008; by FactsAreUseless

eigenstate posted:

I was going to pass this up, but it too good good not to be translated, since the closest most Americans would get to seeing how propaganda works is Fox news, which is grade-school level at best by Russian standards, and therefore have no real understanding of how propaganda works. Here, an opinions journalist is being asked to comment how the recent (Jan 2016) ruling on the Litvenenko case directly implicating Putin in the murder would affect Putin's popularity in Russia, but it is easily applicable to Bellingcat's reports, etc.

It didn't have to be this way

So many bad decisions since the wall came down - thanks, boomers!

# ? Mar 14, 2016 04:46

Lichtenstein: May 31, 2012; It'll make sense, eventually.

I think one mock-worthy development of recent days somehow evaded the thread.

This is an official logo of Poland's Space Agency.

Exhibit A
Exhibit B
Exhibit C
Exhibit D

# ? Mar 14, 2016 13:01

Paladinus: Jan 11, 2014; heyHEYYYY!!!

Lichtenstein posted:

I think one mock-worthy development of recent days somehow evaded the thread.

This is an official logo of Poland's Space Agency.

Exhibit A
Exhibit B
Exhibit C
Exhibit D

This is a counterfeit meme. Polandball famously has red on top.

# ? Mar 14, 2016 13:10

suck my woke dick: Oct 10, 2012; I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!

Put this cum-loving slave on ignore immediately!

Lichtenstein posted:

I think one mock-worthy development of recent days somehow evaded the thread.

This is an official logo of Poland's Space Agency.

Exhibit A
Exhibit B
Exhibit C
Exhibit D

what for

ESA and Roscosmos already exist if you want to buy a rocket to put things on

# ? Mar 14, 2016 13:10

Elukka: Feb 18, 2011; For All Mankind

ESA member states have their own national space agencies that that work with ESA.

# ? Mar 14, 2016 13:13

Mc Do Well: Aug 2, 2008; by FactsAreUseless

efb

blowfish posted:

what for

ESA and Roscosmos already exist if you want to buy a rocket to put things on

Isn't ESA an umbrella organization for individual national space programs?

# ? Mar 14, 2016 13:15

alex314: Nov 22, 2007

Something something Polan in space.

# ? Mar 14, 2016 13:26

Anne Frank Funk: Nov 4, 2008

We already have a successful institution in the form of Centrum Badań Kosmicznych (Space Research Center), which supplies various ESA missions in technical know how and instruments, but I guess we needed another one.

# ? Mar 14, 2016 13:33

Lichtenstein: May 31, 2012; It'll make sense, eventually.

blowfish posted:

what for

Manifest Destiny

# ? Mar 14, 2016 13:34

suck my woke dick: Oct 10, 2012; I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!

Put this cum-loving slave on ignore immediately!

Pierogi posted:

We already have a successful institution in the form of Centrum Badań Kosmicznych (Space Research Center), which supplies various ESA missions in technical know how and instruments, but I guess we needed another one.

PLOAND #1

# ? Mar 14, 2016 13:39

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

Paladinus posted:

This is a counterfeit meme. Polandball famously has red on top.

That is Indonesiaball.

# ? Mar 14, 2016 13:42

Murgos: Oct 21, 2010

eigenstate posted:

I was going to pass this up, but it too good good not to be translated, since the closest most Americans would get to seeing how propaganda works is Fox news, which is grade-school level at best by Russian standards, and therefore have no real understanding of how propaganda works. Here, an opinions journalist is being asked to comment how the recent (Jan 2016) ruling on the Litvenenko case directly implicating Putin in the murder would affect Putin's popularity in Russia, but it is easily applicable to Bellingcat's reports, etc.

So, the west should not do anything ever because everything they do is just used by Russian state media to it's own purposes?

That seems to be the point of the article.

Maybe, just maybe, the things the west does are not actually being done with consideration for Russian popular opinion at all?

# ? Mar 14, 2016 19:36

HUGE PUBES A PLUS: Apr 30, 2005

PUTIN PULLS OUT

http://www.cnn.com/2016/03/14/world/russia-syria-withdrawal/index.html

quote:

Russian President Vladimir Putin announced Monday that he has ordered Russian forces to begin withdrawing from Syria, saying they have achieved their goals in the country.

The pullback will begin Tuesday, the state-run Sputnik news agency reported.

"I think that the task that was assigned to the Ministry of Defense and the armed forces as a whole has achieved its goal, and so I order the defense minister to start tomorrow withdrawing the main part of our military factions from the Syrian Arab Republic," Putin said.

Russia began air strikes in September in support of the Syrian government, which has been fighting Syrian rebels and ISIS in a war that is now nearly 5 years old.

Putin told Syrian President Bashar al-Assad of the decision in a telephone call, Sputnik reported.

Military analysts say the Russian intervention helped push back rebel and ISIS forces and bolster the position of Assad, whose government, for a time, appeared to be teetering on the edge.

The announcement of the withdrawal comes the same day as Syrian peace talks resumed in Geneva, and is seen by some as evidence that Putin is sending a message to Syrian and other forces in the region to reach a political solution, CNN's Matthew Chance reported from Moscow.

"You can't ignore the timing of this, and the symbolism," he said.

# ? Mar 14, 2016 20:08

anilEhilated: Feb 17, 2014; But I say fuck the rain.; Grimey Drawer

Call me paranoid but there's a distinct difference between Putin saying he's pulling out and actually pulling out. Of course, depends on what favors he's expecting for it on the diplomatic front...
Then again, "political solution" is apparently shorthand for Assad staying right where he is.

# ? Mar 14, 2016 20:13

HUGE PUBES A PLUS: Apr 30, 2005

Of course Putin means Assad stays right where he is. Five years of hell means nothing. Maintaining status quo for those who support Putin is what matters.

# ? Mar 14, 2016 20:16

Mozi: Apr 4, 2004; Forms change so fast
Time is moving past
Memory is smoke
Gonna get wider when I die; Nap Ghost

I wouldn't be surprised actually. They've had a huge impact on Assad's fortune and the cease fire seems to be doing... not terrible, so they may have decided it was the right time to declare mission accomplished as far as the really expensive intervention goes.

Guess when you don't give a poo poo about civilian casualties it makes this whole thing easier.

# ? Mar 14, 2016 20:18

anilEhilated: Feb 17, 2014; But I say fuck the rain.; Grimey Drawer

It's Russian casualties I'm kinda curious about here - IIRC they only admitted to one pilot who crashed near the Turkish border and that's it. Guess you don't lose units when you don't actually attack anything that can fire back.

# ? Mar 14, 2016 20:22

Sergiu64: May 21, 2014

anilEhilated posted:

It's Russian casualties I'm kinda curious about here - IIRC they only admitted to one pilot who crashed near the Turkish border and that's it. Guess you don't lose units when you don't actually attack anything that can fire back.

Plus the guy who was near the rescue helicopter that got blown up by a TOW missile.

# ? Mar 14, 2016 20:30

Cat Mattress: Jul 14, 2012; by Cyrano4747

What I'm curious about is how many casualties of the Syrian conflict have died in Ukraine.

# ? Mar 14, 2016 20:46

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# ? May 10, 2024 17:04

chitoryu12: Apr 24, 2014

I'm willing to bet that Putin's pulling out of Syria in the same way that he's not invading Ukraine.

# ? Mar 14, 2016 22:15

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