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Magres posted:You should probably talk to someone about that, it's not healthy  Please teach Jivjov to be entertaining.
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Mar 15, 2016 22:21
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Magres posted:Wait what? I completely missed this. He mentioned that Maggie's room is covered with brightly colored cartoon ponies which is entirely a reasonable place for them to be.
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Mar 15, 2016 22:22
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Number Ten Cocks posted:
I will try! Honestly, in seriousness I care as much as jivjov does about this kind of stuff, they're just not communicating it well because it's a hard topic to discuss without pushing people into becoming defensive and shutting down communication, even if everyone continues to talk at each other. (Doubling down on my recommendation of the Jay Smooth video for anyone at all interested in social justice stuff.) ImpAtom posted:He mentioned that Maggie's room is covered with brightly colored cartoon ponies which is entirely a reasonable place for them to be. Oh okay. I thought it was some poo poo about how Harry talks about The Magic Of Friendship. Blasphemeral posted:But we don't know, yet, if it adds anything to the narrative or not. The Dresden Files are not a complete narrative yet--there's still something like 8 or 10 seriously heavy books remaining. I legitimately hope you're right - even if Butcher never develops it further I don't think it's a sign of really like any negative feelings towards Native Americans, it's just that stuff like "Injun Joe" is a reasonably common cultural meme that is innocuous enough if you just kind of gloss past it. That said, it would be awesome writing if it came back up at some point - like, say the wheels on the magical world are coming off badly enough that mortals need more overt protection, the White Council says no to it, and Listens To Wind and Ebenezer basically stand up and say "No. gently caress you. Long ago we agreed we would never let this happen again. Wardens, please do not come after us for defying the White Council here, we don't want to have to hurt you." and walk out of the room like the coolest badasses ever. Magres fucked around with this message at 22:40 on Mar 15, 2016 |
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Mar 15, 2016 22:33
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Magres posted:I will try! Honestly, in seriousness I care as much as jivjov does about this kind of stuff, they're just not communicating it well because it's a hard topic to discuss without pushing people into becoming defensive and shutting down communication, even if everyone continues to talk at each other. (Doubling down on my recommendation of the Jay Smooth video for anyone at all interested in social justice stuff.) Watched the video, and seriously, I'm not trying to say Harry Dresden, Jim Butcher, Ebenezer McCoy, or Forums Poster Number Ten Cocks is a racist. I'm just trying to get Cocks to realize that calling a Native American character "Injun" has a lot more context beyond just a friendly nickname and could possibly be construed as racist. But then Cocks just deflects with poo poo from a completely different thread, odd anecdotes about "smearing oneself with one's feces", personally attacking my mental state, and suggesting that people should laugh at me for finding the use of the word "Injun" problematic.
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Mar 15, 2016 23:59
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Magres posted:for anyone at all interested in social justice stuff.  jivjov posted:Watched the video, and seriously, I'm not trying to say Harry Dresden, Jim Butcher, Ebenezer McCoy, or Forums Poster Number Ten Cocks is a racist. I'm just trying to get Cocks to realize that calling a Native American character "Injun" has a lot more context beyond just a friendly nickname and could possibly be construed as racist. Ok. So what? Morons can construe anything as anything. jivjov posted:But then Cocks just deflects with poo poo from a completely different thread, odd anecdotes about "smearing oneself with one's feces", personally attacking my mental state, and suggesting that people should laugh at me for finding the use of the word "Injun" problematic. I'm sure by now these people have found their own reasons to laugh at you.
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Mar 16, 2016 00:02
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jivjov posted:Watched the video, and seriously, I'm not trying to say Harry Dresden, Jim Butcher, Ebenezer McCoy, or Forums Poster Number Ten Cocks is a racist. I'm just trying to get Cocks to realize that calling a Native American character "Injun" has a lot more context beyond just a friendly nickname and could possibly be construed as racist. Sometimes people have no interest in talking  You're never going to win every argument, don't commit the time and effort to trying to win ones that are clearly unwinnable. If you wanna talk more about any of this stuff, PM me cause this derail should end. Back to actual bookchat, something I I've noticed upon re-listening to Skin Game is the way (should I spoiler Skin Game spoilers cause it's the latest book? No idea, but playing it safe) Goodman and Harry's interactions are always consistent both with them being at odds with each other and also with them being allies against the rest of the group. It's great Also Goodman Grey continues to be fantastic and I want a side series centered around him being a mercenary. Magres fucked around with this message at 01:12 on Mar 16, 2016 |
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Mar 16, 2016 00:58
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are you really discussing politics in ubergoon Jim "League of Legends" Butcher thread
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Mar 16, 2016 11:28
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I didn't really like "Molly's mindscape is the Starship Enterprise". It's hard for me to explain why. None of the other pop culture references in the series bother me.
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Mar 16, 2016 11:37
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mallamp posted:are you really discussing politics in ubergoon Jim "League of Legends" Butcher thread Less a discussion of politics and more a talk about aspects of his work that some people find bothersome. Just because he's a turbo nerd who writes pulpy wizard fiction doesn't mean Butcher's work should be immune to criticism. That's the literary equivalent of the bullshit "just turn your brain off" argument that people trot out to excuse dumb crap in movies.
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Mar 16, 2016 11:38
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Wheat Loaf posted:I didn't really like "Molly's mindscape is the Starship Enterprise". It's hard for me to explain why. None of the other pop culture references in the series bother me. Maybe because it's a little out of left field? None of the other books mention her having an affinity for Star Trek, so it comes off less as an important cultural touchstone for her personally and more as a cheap pop-culture reference. Not that Butcher is above such a thing, but he usually grounds his references a little better by giving you some background about why the characters would form the connection. Edit: Also, isn't Molly, like 26'ish? I'm not sure I've ever met anyone under the age of 30 who gave a poo poo about Star Trek. I mean, I'm sure they exist, but they can't be all that common. Skippy McPants fucked around with this message at 11:50 on Mar 16, 2016 |
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Mar 16, 2016 11:47
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Skippy McPants posted:Less a discussion of politics and more a talk about aspects of his work that some people find bothersome. Just because he's a turbo nerd who writes pulpy wizard fiction doesn't mean Butcher's work should be immune to criticism. That's the literary equivalent of the bullshit "just turn your brain off" argument that people trot out to excuse dumb crap in movies. mallamp fucked around with this message at 12:28 on Mar 16, 2016 |
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Mar 16, 2016 12:19
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mallamp posted:Not immune, but more like why even bother, there are way better places to fight the good fights I dunno, there are better places, but stories do matter, and they play a part in shaping out people think about this stuff. Butcher also seems like the kind of person decent and self-aware enough that he would take the criticism to heart if someone pointed it out to him in a thoughtful manner, as opposed to someone like Larry Correia, who probably wouldn't give a gently caress. Edit: You type more! mallamp posted:Sure, I could write long post about wands as penis symbolism to Harry Potter thread, but they're childrens books. This is worse because discussing politically correct language in manchild books isn't entertaining and neither is it interesting discussion, it's just stating the obvious. It's symptom more than a cause for things that are possibly wrong in this beautiful world of ours. Why all female anime characters are like talking sex dolls, well why do you think Well, yeah, it's a symptom, but part of how you fix the cause is by informing people and working to change their minds. Part of that is by changing popular media, so that it engage in less casual discrimination. And like I said, Butcher gives the impression of being a guy who'd be respective to that kind of thing if someone were to sit down with him and ask, for example, "so what was up with that monologue about gay dudes in Cold Days?" Skippy McPants fucked around with this message at 12:37 on Mar 16, 2016 |
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Mar 16, 2016 12:31
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Skippy McPants posted:Maybe because it's a little out of left field? None of the other books mention her having an affinity for Star Trek, so it comes off less as an important cultural touchstone for her personally and more as a cheap pop-culture reference. Not that Butcher is above such a thing, but he usually grounds his references a little better by giving you some background about why the characters would form the connection. I am 26 and care about Star Trek, it seemed fine to me.
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Mar 16, 2016 13:26
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Okay den, I'm just spitballing and it seems like Star Trek is one of those things that's gradually falling out of the public conscious, even with the recent remakes.
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Mar 16, 2016 13:29
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Skippy McPants posted:Maybe because it's a little out of left field? None of the other books mention her having an affinity for Star Trek, so it comes off less as an important cultural touchstone for her personally and more as a cheap pop-culture reference. Not that Butcher is above such a thing, but he usually grounds his references a little better by giving you some background about why the characters would form the connection. It bothered me a little, too. I guess it feels a tad gratuitous and more like the kind of reference you'd see in Ready Player One than Dresden.
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Mar 16, 2016 13:41
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I feel like the Star Trek thing absolutely did come up before, though more as a throwaway reference than anything else. (I can't remember which book, but I remember a brief exchange of "you know you can like both Star Trek and Star Wars, right" presented as the continuation of a longstanding argument). Anyway, the first time we met Molly as an adult, she was helping organize a horror movie convention that certainly seemed to focus more on (fictionalized/thinly disguised versions of) 80s and 90s stuff than modern-day work, so her being into Trek as well doesn't feel like that huge a stretch to me. I honestly think that the fact that there are basically no references anywhere to more contemporary pop culture in the Dresden Files (while there are certainly some in-text justifications for this) is more telling than a single character being into something from before her time. It's not really a big deal, certainly not something that makes me think less of the books, but it is kind of interesting.
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Mar 16, 2016 14:03
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I didn't really bother me personally, but I could see how someone would think it kind of trite and detracting from a scene that turned out to be a huge personal reveal for both Molly and Dresden. Sometimes Butcher wants to have his cake and eat it too when it comes to balancing dramatic tension with comedic references. I'm reminded of the convention hall fight in Proven Guilty where Dresden battles an HR Giger rip-off while belting out Aliens quotations. After the fight is over there's this big moment where he learns that the girl he was trying to save has died, and it's supposed to be impactful, but it's undercut somewhat by the recent whedonesque quipping spree.docbeard posted:I honestly think that the fact that there are basically no references anywhere to more contemporary pop culture in the Dresden Files (while there are certainly some in-text justifications for this) is more telling than a single character being into something from before her time. It's not really a big deal, certainly not something that makes me think less of the books, but it is kind of interesting. This, at least, has the justification of Dresden being limited in how he can interact with modern and social media, rather than it being a simple case of Butcher being an Old Dude(tm). Although, he has slipped up a couple of times. I remember Dresden dropping an "Epic Fail" in... I think it was Cold Days? Skippy McPants fucked around with this message at 14:51 on Mar 16, 2016 |
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Mar 16, 2016 14:46
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Skippy McPants posted:Maybe because it's a little out of left field? None of the other books mention her having an affinity for Star Trek, so it comes off less as an important cultural touchstone for her personally and more as a cheap pop-culture reference. Not that Butcher is above such a thing, but he usually grounds his references a little better by giving you some background about why the characters would form the connection. That might be it - that it's somehow gratuitous. But I really don't know. It doesn't work at all for me but I'm honestly not sure why. (Also, I like Star Trek and I'm 24.  )
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Mar 16, 2016 16:18
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Okay! I am an old man and have no idea what young nerds are into. I just assumed ya'll would have no connection to that stuff, since the last TV show went off the air in the mid-aughts.
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Mar 16, 2016 16:29
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Skippy McPants posted:Okay! I am an old man and have no idea what young nerds are into. I just assumed ya'll would have no connection to that stuff, since the last TV show went off the air in the mid-aughts. Which would be when youngish nerds were impressionable youngsters, mostly. My maternal grandfather introduced me to Next Generation when I was like 6 and it was in it's last couple seasons. (I'm 28 now.) Sure the original show wasn't new, but the Space network (SciFi, but canadian) pretty regularly aired giant blocks of various trek shows while I was growing up., including the original.
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Mar 16, 2016 17:06
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Huh. I also did not know that, but I haven't had cable television since, like, 2006? I kinda forgot that reruns of old shows were a thing that happened.
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Mar 16, 2016 17:14
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You aren't that out of loop, Star Trek definitely isn't mainstream geek thing, even though most people probably recognize Spockand stuff - things like Harry Potter, Supernatural (and all the YA stuff) and Game of Thrones are waymore relevant modern geek standards.
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Mar 16, 2016 17:18
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There have also been the two recent movies, obviously.
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Mar 16, 2016 17:31
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I was watching Next Generation since before I can properly remember. I was always a big Trek fan. In fact, the only sci-fi I liked more when I was growing up was Doctor Who, and that hadn't even properly been on the air in the US for years! Nothing but irregular PBS reruns of the 70's episodes.
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Mar 16, 2016 17:50
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Reflecting on it a bit, I can totally see why the better portions of TOS, Next Gen, and DS9 would have cross-generational appeal. Good quality speculative Sci-Fi is actually super rare on television, so I suppose those old shows still service a niche that hasn't really been filled in the modern day if that's what someone is looking for.
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Mar 16, 2016 18:05
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Wheat Loaf posted:That might be it - that it's somehow gratuitous. But I really don't know. It doesn't work at all for me but I'm honestly not sure why. I didn't like it because nerd references already litter the books. When it starts to bleed into the actual storyline of the series (and in the worst book) it gets to be too much.
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Mar 16, 2016 18:29
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You think Cold Days is the worst book?
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Mar 16, 2016 18:32
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Skippy McPants posted:You think Cold Days is the worst book? The star trek scene happens in ghost story
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Mar 16, 2016 18:32
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Up Circle posted:The star trek scene happens in ghost story Right, right. Still don't think GS is the worst, but that seems like a much more defensible position to take.
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Mar 16, 2016 18:35
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speaking of star trek, Butcher calls out Butters being a knight way back in the series. The one I can recall off-hand is that Harry mentions that he needs a knight of the cross when he's tied up in dead beat and then butters shows up. There's definitely one or two more out there but I forget where they're at. Worth paying attention to on any re-read.
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Mar 16, 2016 19:46
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builds character posted:speaking of star trek, Butcher calls out Butters being a knight way back in the series. The one I can recall off-hand is that Harry mentions that he needs a knight of the cross when he's tied up in dead beat and then butters shows up. There's definitely one or two more out there but I forget where they're at. Worth paying attention to on any re-read. And Harry talks about this "coincidence" with Uriel in Skin Game, I think.
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Mar 16, 2016 20:23
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Blasphemeral posted:And Harry talks about this "coincidence" with Uriel in Skin Game, I think. Uriel's response is they sent a future knight to handle a previous denarian.
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Mar 16, 2016 20:33
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Controversial Opinion: Ghost Story is my second favorite book in the series.
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Mar 16, 2016 20:37
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docbeard posted:Controversial Opinion: I have weird thoughts on Ghost Story...in general I really like it...but it just feels tonally dissonant from the books around it. Like too much time passed between the end of Changes and the start of Ghost Story or something.
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Mar 16, 2016 20:41
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It's bad and you should feel bad for liking it.
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Mar 16, 2016 20:52
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Ghost Story just felt really filler-y to me I like the change in tone (ie Harry doesn't just stomp his way through everything and summon up final blasts of magic with SHEER GUTS AND WILLPOWER) but just nothing happens. I can barely even remember what happens in Ghost Days despite it being one of the books I read more recently - Harry walks about Ghostcago for a while talking to ghosts, finds a way to talk to people in real Chicago, the Corpse Taker is a jerk, and then the Ectomancer guy kills her? Also there was the cool colonial dude except Butcher killed him off instead of letting cool ghost friend stick around and hang out with Bob or something.
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Mar 16, 2016 21:12
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There's a lot of stuff in Ghost Story that I like, a lot of good character and world building. Taken in the context of the series as a whole it contains some of my favorite moments. Considered as a book on its own, it was a flop. It's clear Butcher really struggled with tension and pacing in a story where his main character lacked most of his physical agency. Overall I'm still pretty positive on it, but that might be because Molly is my favorite character. GS spent a lot of time with her and really drove home how much of a loving train wreck her life is. Skippy McPants fucked around with this message at 21:30 on Mar 16, 2016 |
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Mar 16, 2016 21:22
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Skippy McPants posted:I'm reminded of the convention hall fight in Proven Guilty where Dresden battles an HR Giger rip-off while belting out Aliens quotations. After the fight is over there's this big moment where he learns that the girl he was trying to save has died, and it's supposed to be impactful, but it's undercut somewhat by the recent whedonesque quipping spree. Then you missed the point. Harry was righteously angry at the fetch and chose to indulge it and smite it, and enjoyed it. While he was venting his rage killing a fetch he knows he could let escape, an innocent girl dies. He reflects on this afterwards, and correctly realizes he hosed up. It's one of the times Harry correctly assigns blame to himself.
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Mar 16, 2016 21:31
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Rygar201 posted:Then you missed the point. Harry was righteously angry at the fetch and chose to indulge it and smite it, and enjoyed it. While he was venting his rage killing a fetch he knows he could let escape, an innocent girl dies. He reflects on this afterwards, and correctly realizes he hosed up. It's one of the times Harry correctly assigns blame to himself. No, I get all that. I'm just saying that the impact of his realization is undercut somewhat by the silly Aliens references that got tossed in during the fight.
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Mar 16, 2016 21:35
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Skippy McPants posted:No, I get all that. I'm just saying that the impact of his realization is undercut somewhat by the silly Aliens references that got tossed in during the fight. If I were a powerful wizard smiting a Not Xenomorph, I'd definitely do the same thing. It's entirely in keeping with his character, before and after. Anyway, Ghost Story owns haters to the left.
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Mar 16, 2016 21:38
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