|
Bobby is a little kid who really loves cookies. One day he decides to take some from the cookie jar without permission and his mom catches him with crumbs on his hands. He's embarrassed of course and he doesn't want to be punished so he lies and makes excuses. "Dad said I could." "I did extra chores so I should get cookies" "Okay, I took two, but I could have taken more and didn't" "Jimmy next door takes cookies every day, he's the one who should be punished." "I don't even see any crumbs, you're yelling at me for stuff I didn't do" Mom decides to give him a pass for today, but then the next week he does it again. All the same excuses, plus, "Geez mom, last time was all the way back in last week, how can you still be mad?" "I didn't do it for a whole week, I can stop any time" A few days later he does it again, but this time mom doesn't catch him. He knows he did something wrong but she'll be mad if he confesses. So he waits until he helps her clip coupons, then points out the cookie coupon he cleverly saved so she can replace the ones he took without spending as much. He did something good so why is she still mad?
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2016 19:31
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 27, 2024 04:45 |
|
|
Knyteguy posted:Well discretionary this month was a little unfair, Knyteguy posted:All in all though? $140/$400 left. About $80 of it was non-regular stuff like shampoo, February rollovers so I didn't mess up the pretty budget numbers, and hair clippers (I was giving myself haircuts with a beard trimmer before hah). I'm confident I'll be under when the end of the month is here. I'd be at a little less than half without those, but hey at least the budget is there for that stuff. You're smarter than this. Know how I know? Because IMMEDIATELY there is a wall of text defending how this month IS different, you really HAVE only kindasortapleasesquintatit spent half your discretionary, and if you THINK about it it was all good money to spend! Also consider the reason a lot of people are defaulting to THERAPY THERAPY THERAPY is it's obvious you get and understand every single problem we bring up. You have instant paragraphs of defenses to our objections before we make them, because you know what the problem is. And you can't take action on most of the advice. Also "I'd be at a little less than half without those" but you aren't. You aren't you aren't you aren't you aren't. Your discretionary is at $140/$400 from purchases you made. They were made, here, in reality. And before you say "Fine I'll move February numbers back" or "I'll sell x y and z I bought" who cares. Why do you get so defensive when you know it CAN be an unhealthy sign, especially given you've struggled with blowing discretionary before the end of the month before, that you're over halfway through the discretionary you purposefully set up to be big at the halfway point of the month? Just think about it without thinking of eighteen different ways you're not reeeeally at $260 spent. Also Namarrgon's post was a great post.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2016 19:56
|
|
|
Knyteguy posted:Focus on my past, but focus on my present too. How about just a few good words about the progress? 1? From someone? This is what your wife is for  BFC advice threats are more like a mean drill sergeant. It's not really a hugs-and-cuddles place. And you obfuscate the finances a bit so someone like me who isn't a huge finance nerd can't see if you are doing well or not. You also hide negative things, so we can't really say "Congratulations on giving up smoking" because it is unclear whether you did or not.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2016 20:00
|
|
|
n8r posted:To a point, you cannot win on this forum. There will always be more that you can cut and less that you can spend. Thanks. This is a cool strategy to add to the anti-debt anti-consumerist arsenal. IllegallySober posted:I will say this- part of the reason I wanted to do this "challenge" with you was to both give you a different perspective from someone who's been in this thread for a long time, and also give the thread someone else to "pick on" for a while. As long as you do eventually get the therapy stuff done by the date you set, I think that's fair. As long as you're prepared for the huge backlash that will come if you don't and/or lie about doing it. I'm sorry to hear about your father. I've been through similar, so hit me up if you just want to talk about it (or anything else). The perspective would be nice,. Slo Mo and my challenge was kind of screwy. He had a thread I have a thread, but yeah someone from outside the thread-verse will be interesting. Oh yeah I understand the craziness that will ensue if I don't hit that therapy date. Plus I do want to do it. The date was for me too. I just don't want to talk about it. I'm all for someone else to pick on. Abandon hope all ye who enter though! Nah it'll be fine. I'm OK with the challenge outline you suggested. I think they sound great, and any individual goal will be definite progress. strawberrymousse posted:Bobby is a little kid who really loves cookies. One day he decides to take some from the cookie jar without permission and his mom catches him with crumbs on his hands. He's embarrassed of course and he doesn't want to be punished so he lies and makes excuses. I am not the thread's child. That said I get what you're saying. I could analogize this more but I don't have the energy. Rurutia posted:You kept it from the thread for a long rear end time. So I wouldn't count it as being 7 months sober. Further, the obfuscating and constant misdirection about just even scheduling therapy cuts into that time and is very wearisome. I personally count it starting as when you made the promise to go see a therapist on May 1st, and I'm not counting it until you actually meet those terms. Personally, I would've made the goal to see a number of therapists until you found a good one you liked, and not just take the easiest appointment you can to make the deadline. Well the appointment toxx is just to get my rear end in gear. I'll make sure I choose someone I like. That's for me, too. That's fair enough on the compliments and congratulations, but you're not constantly getting mad or frustrated or whatever you want to call it, either. Please don't defend me though. I can take care of myself, and yeah I don't want anyone to look foolish (especially you regulars) if I fail at something. I once turned down a job at 16 because my mom's friend was going to vouch for me. A very good job too with the state that would have turned full time after I graduated. I did the first group interview of my life with 6 people, and afterwards a day or so later I was asked if I wanted the recommendation from the friend who worked there that would have guaranteed the job. I said no. My mistakes are my own to bear, and there are always mistakes. (almost made a bear/bare mistake myself there). e: haha I did make a mistake myself there. And yeah I mainly mean the regular posters too. Thanks. Old Greg posted:As life continues to be for you every single month, and yet somehow it keeps tripping you up! That was an explanation, not a defense. I'm not tripped up at all. It's not the end of the month yet; I think it is fair to reserve budget judgement until then. I haven't struggled with blowing discretionary this month. It's not blown. I don't think it will be blown. The unfairness was I took care of last month with this month's budget. We had budgeted $100 for my son's birthday, we had $65 left for it that was for the cake, we ate it from our discretionary this month. Plus smokes I bought in February that had to go somewhere. Again, not a defense, but a simple explanation. I'll save the defense if I blow the actual budget. Right now it's looking good though. There's going to be a fair chunk of funds going extra into the debt. Knyteguy fucked around with this message at 20:07 on Mar 18, 2016 |
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2016 20:02
|
|
|
The whole point of setting a really high discretionary was so you could practice not spending to your limits. It doesn't matter if you have reasons like February shell games catching up with you or you weren't able to predict your need to buy shampoo (are you buying poo poo with gold flakes, how is this worth mentioning specifically out of $260 spent?) because you supposedly built in a big buffer.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2016 20:08
|
|
|
bringer posted:The whole point of setting a really high discretionary was so you could practice not spending to your limits. It doesn't matter if you have reasons like February shell games catching up with you or you weren't able to predict your need to buy shampoo (are you buying poo poo with gold flakes, how is this worth mentioning specifically out of $260 spent?) because you supposedly built in a big buffer. I mean it's $13 shampoo (Selsun Blue (H&S doesn't work for me)) since it's a large bottle, plus hair cutting clippers were $25. $38 is pretty notable I think. Like I said I think I'll walk away with $50 at the low end, at the end of this month. That's a start. This is more discretionary than I usually start with in a month, so I'm feeling pretty comfortable about it. Anyway too much posting this morning. I'm probably gonna step away for an hour or two.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2016 20:17
|
|
|
That you feel the need to explain in great detail is defensive. It's trying to head off our potential criticism (50% done with month, >50% spent out of budget category) with reasons it happened. I am not gonna judge your discretionary amount because I'm one of the posters who wants to see you meet a goal before you meet a healthier, lower goal (You'll notice I didn't mention books  ). I'm judging these usual patterns of "Here are all the reasons 1) it's not as bad as it looks and 2) I am going to come in under budget this month, for sure, I know it, all the surprises are over with for <current_month>!" Aaaaaaaand here's my bit of feint praise. I'm gonna agree, you can very well come in under budget on discretionary. But whyyyyyyy do you have confidence you will, as you have had many times before on broken budget months, and not cautious optimism, or cautious worry?Worry can be good. Worry would cause you to make some evening plans for the rest of the month, so you can't go out to restaurants that you don't want to, or to keep yourself busy and off the Internet if you feel an urge to check out prices on something. And by evening plans, I mean "Read to baby," "Try to put son down early and watch a cuddle movie with wife." Nothing grand or minute for minute. Just a rough idea. Do the evening time equivalent of a weekly meal plan, and make those evening plans very hard to spend during. Of course, if you got $40 left in your restaurant budget, you can plan for a night out! I'm saying make plans with what's left of your budget in mind. No discretionary spending if you want to throw it at debt, $140 in spending through the 31st if you want. But plan it out. Edit: Pretend I said evening/weekend everywhere above.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2016 20:25
|
|
|
KG, good luck. I hope you can quit smoking. That poo poo is terrible for you. At the end of the month don't be over spent on any category please, you set this realistic budget don't blow it! Keep looking to pay down that debt, the year end goal to have the car paid off is great, do it. Keep going strong, anytime you want to buy something big you can always ask the thread and sit on it 30 days, still want it and it is budgeted, pull the trigger. You might find you don't really want it after you wait. Anyways good luck, routing for you (just can't be bothered to read all the back and forth in this thread).
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2016 20:30
|
|
|
Unplanned $THING that cost $X was just a one time thing this month. It won't happen again!
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2016 20:44
|
|
|
Knyteguy posted:I mean I bought it August 9th (my birthday), so that was 7 months ago. Ohhh, again, cognitive distortions. You're maginfying the bad that people do to you without really acknowledging that the fact that these people have hung in here for so long is the positive in of itself, and the thing you should be extremely grateful for. Then you immediately turn it around and say it's dysfunctional as if its the threads fault that the dysfunction exists, and not that it's just a product of what everything is. I'm going to harp on these until you're in therapy because you're delaying something vital to your actual growth, and not your budget. Here is another cognitive distortion to look at, which this post is hitting pretty hard with how black and white the situation is you've just created. Polarized Thinking (or “Black and White” Thinking). In polarized thinking, things are either “black-or-white.” We have to be perfect or we’re a failure — there is no middle ground. You place people or situations in “either/or” categories, with no shades of gray or allowing for the complexity of most people and situations. If your performance falls short of perfect, you see yourself as a total failure. Veskit fucked around with this message at 21:30 on Mar 18, 2016 |
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2016 21:16
|
|
|
Veskit posted:Ohhh, again, cognitive distortions. You're maginfying the bad that people do to you without really acknowledging that the fact that these people have hung in here for so long is the positive in of itself, and the thing you should be extremely grateful for. Then you immediately turn it around and say it's dysfunctional as if its the threads fault that the dysfunction exists, and not that it's just a product of what everything is. I don't think you can say I'm magnifying when I say that when people, including you Veskit, say or have said hurtful things, that yeah it hurt. Especially over something like a failure on an internet forum. You can throw all the definitions or cognitive theories at me that you want, but I'm not wrong here. "Respect yourself by respecting others. Honor and love yourself and you will never dishonor or hate another." That's my poo poo right there, and I have in fact told that to other people in similar ways. As I said before your levelheadedness has really improved, and I'm glad to see that. I welcome your input again, which is very clearly accepting imperfectness, and gray areas. Old Greg posted:That you feel the need to explain in great detail is defensive. It's trying to head off our potential criticism (50% done with month, >50% spent out of budget category) with reasons it happened. I am not gonna judge your discretionary amount because I'm one of the posters who wants to see you meet a goal before you meet a healthier, lower goal (You'll notice I didn't mention books I did worry last weekend, and spending went down heavily on my part. I think "cautiously optimistic" is a good phrase to describe my mindset at the moment. spwrozek posted:KG, good luck. I hope you can quit smoking. That poo poo is terrible for you. At the end of the month don't be over spent on any category please, you set this realistic budget don't blow it! Keep looking to pay down that debt, the year end goal to have the car paid off is great, do it. Thanks spwrozek. You're one example of someone who has been supportive. I generally look forward to seeing what you've posted in the thread. Also a guy right here who sent me some encouraging PMs! It hasn't all been negative of course. I've gotten good PMs too, they're just less often. Anyway I'm exhausted. Probably my last post of the day. I skipped lunch to get off in... 13 minutes. Woo hoo. Knyteguy fucked around with this message at 21:50 on Mar 18, 2016 |
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2016 21:47
|
|
|
BarbarianElephant posted:This is what your wife is for My wife has actually been complimenting me on finances: "what a difference", "I can't even think of your last impulse purchase", etc. Can't do anything on the last part there. Technically every number could be made up, and I could be trolling. Just gotta trust sometimes despite being burned. I was burned very recently myself by someone I love very much, but I made the choice to trust again. Now obviously the love part doesn't factor in here, but it will have to come down to a choice. I've made the amends I can at this point.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2016 22:01
|
|
|
Knyteguy posted:I don't think you can say I'm magnifying when I say that when people, including you Veskit, say or have said hurtful things, that yeah it hurt. Especially over something like a failure on an internet forum. You can throw all the definitions or cognitive theories at me that you want, but I'm not wrong here. Magnification is specifically pointing out the small things so that you do not need to see big picture. You are effectively making the bad big enough to the point where you do not have to recognize everything around it. Black and white is saying this IS this way, or this IS that way. We're not saying it did or didn't happen, but you're really changing the surrounding of everything so you don't have to acknowledge anything, or as much. The point that I'm largely trying to get across is that you're not really managing your feelings or your view of things very well, so everyone just has this constant dance where you say things are going one way but everyone sees it differently from you. This is why you don't see therapy as big of a priority as everyone else does. Veskit fucked around with this message at 22:19 on Mar 18, 2016 |
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2016 22:07
|
|
|
I kind of feel like this thread should go through phases where it's closed for a month or two, then KG opens it up for a few weeks, then closes it again. Or maybe keep it open for a week or so when the past month's budget/reckoning is ready, then close it for a few weeks until the next time. Maybe it's just me but it feels like both sides just keep repeating themselves over and over, and it's been happening for, well, years now.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2016 23:15
|
|
|
Any plans for Easter? I assume you're probably doing something for your kid. You planned for that purchase, right? Easter doesn't just spring up on you. (Do you see what I did thar?)
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2016 02:55
|
|
|
Veskit posted:Magnification is specifically pointing out the small things so that you do not need to see big picture. You are effectively making the bad big enough to the point where you do not have to recognize everything around it. I need you to explain with maybe an example if you want me to understand what you're saying. Cicero posted:I kind of feel like this thread should go through phases where it's closed for a month or two, then KG opens it up for a few weeks, then closes it again. Or maybe keep it open for a week or so when the past month's budget/reckoning is ready, then close it for a few weeks until the next time. Round and round... heh. Again I just wish everyone, myself included I suppose, would relax. I'm not going to go blow a bunch of money again. As we get closer to getting out of debt I'm feeling more motivated to get out of debt. Just gotta wait for the numbers. Closing the thread until the end of the month wouldn't be a bad idea. foxatee posted:Any plans for Easter? I assume you're probably doing something for your kid. You planned for that purchase, right? Easter doesn't just spring up on you. (Do you see what I did thar?) Yep. Family is hosting Easter. I'm taking the following day off to clean up the yard some more. It shouldn't cost anything though. I think really what to plan for is some family and friend get togethers in April. I'll probably have a barbecue or two over here.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2016 06:04
|
|
|
I have posted something very similar before, which is that I think the issue with the thread here is one of expectations. I believe that most posters are in consensus that you are entitled to define your financial goals as you see fit. But you seem to consistently have a very high opinion of yourself relative to your actual performance. In terms of your finances, you are a poor performer and yet you consistently argue and proclaim that you are quite all right. I really do think it will help if you simply come to terms with what a worth(less) human being you are in terms of finances and resolve to do better, rather than claim that you are doing (tolerantly) well. Putting it across in an insensitive manner to help you absorb it better. In case you accuse me as well of hypocrisy, I note that I am a paragon of virtue for finances, though not for all aspects of my life. Edit: I remember you broke down some time back and admitted you cannot achieve the financial goals you had set for yourself, that it is too hard and you are easing back the goals. Why don't you apply this to your sense of (financial) self-worth as well? You perform poorly, hence the forum is berating you. It is *you*, not the forum. John Smith fucked around with this message at 06:27 on Mar 19, 2016 |
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2016 06:25
|
|
|
John Smith posted:I have posted something very similar before, which is that I think the issue with the thread here is one of expectations. I believe that most posters are in consensus that you are entitled to define your financial goals as you see fit. But you seem to consistently have a very high opinion of yourself relative to your actual performance. In terms of your finances, you are a poor performer and yet you consistently argue and proclaim that you are quite all right. Then read this and actually internalize it: I am meeting my goals. That's why I'm feeling good, it's why I'm proud of what I'm doing, etc. I've said this already before, too. We're down to $21,200 in debt, and our total throughout the thread has been $46,000. That's pretty loving good. I'm loving proud of that, yes. I haven't taken on a cent of debt since 2014, excluding the birth of my son. I'm loving proud of that also. I'm proud of the fact I bought a car with cash, I'm proud of the fact that I'm planning on keep a car (my wife's) for 10 years instead of trading it in every year as I've always done, I'm proud of our HSA, my wife's 401k, my job, my wife's job, our bank account, our lack of pay day loans, our more recent lack of impulse purchases, our budget, our eating at home more to save money, our lifestyle (in that it's modest for our income), and our debt payments we've been making, my credit score increase, my willingness to open mail because I'm not afraid of bills, our ability to be a month ahead, my responsible credit use, and etc. These are all things that have changed throughout this process. Look at the reverse of each of those points and realize that not very long ago almost everyone one of those were false (mostly except my job). You're drat right I'm proud of our progress. That's some growth and I will not feel lovely about the fact that I'm imperfect. I will acknowledge there's room to improve and strive for that, instead. Yes the thread needs to absolutely lower its expectations. As n8r said I can never win in here so who cares anyway I guess. e: typos e2: And you know what? gently caress you for calling me worthless, financially or otherwise. Knyteguy fucked around with this message at 07:17 on Mar 19, 2016 |
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2016 07:06
|
|
|
Knyteguy posted:Then read this and actually internalize it: I am meeting my goals. That's why I'm feeling good, it's why I'm proud of what I'm doing, etc. I've said this already before, too. Independently of whether you are meeting your financial goals (as defined by you), you are still performing poorly. Just because you have since scaled back your goals so that you are able to achieve them, does not meet that you are actually competent in your finances. Financial goals and financial competency are not the same, although they tend to be correlated. After all, by this viewpoint, everyone would instantly become financially competent once they set their financial goals as zero requirements. In terms of financial competencies, you have various shortfalls. The other posters have repeatedly pointed these out in the last few pages, and you have already mentioned you are feeling distressed over it, so I shall not rehash the same points. But I simply want to point out that it is *you*, not the forum. And I do not wish to imply you are a worth(less) human being in general, just in the specific realm of financial competencies. The tone and content of your recent posts certainly do not convey the impression of you acknowledging this "room to improve" that you claim. Rather, it seems defensive and seeks to externalise your poor decision making from my perspective as an observer. Let me ask you a simple question. Are you performing well in terms of financial competencies (*not relative to your self-defined goals*), and if not, whose fault/responsibility is it? Edit: I wrote worth(less), not worthless. I am urging you to reduce your self-assessment of your financial competencies, your sense of (financial) self-worth, not stating that you are a worthless human being. But all right, at least you are being consistent in terms of your acceptance of criticism. John Smith fucked around with this message at 07:28 on Mar 19, 2016 |
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2016 07:23
|
|
|
John Smith posted:Independently of whether you are meeting your financial goals (as defined by you), you are still performing poorly. Just because you have since scaled back your goals so that you are able to achieve them, does not meet that you are actually competent in your finances. Financial goals and financial competency are not the same, although they tend to be correlated. After all, by this viewpoint, everyone would instantly become financially competent once they set their financial goals as zero requirements. I'm not claiming competency at all. I'm simply claiming improvement. Drastic improvement even. I am proud of that improvement. I know I have a lot of work to do still. I'm earnestly afraid of getting back into debt after we're out of it. I'm afraid of buying a home too expensive, I'm afraid that we won't be able to save to buy a home, I'm afraid of losing my income whether it's my fault or not, I'm afraid of investing money again because I've lost so much in the past, and that's just the tip of the iceberg. Despite that I am proud of my progress. I also think it's important to try to focus on the positives sometimes. Your question: I suppose it depends on the scope of comparison. Compared to many posters here? I'm not entirely sure. Financial bloggers and stuff? Absolutely not. The general public? I think so. I don't believe too many people who got themselves into the debt, with the wreck of a financial background that I have, would put as much into it as I have many months. Compared to where I'd like to be eventually? The past 3-4 months yes. Impulse purchases and much of the history of the thread? No again. And of course I'm bearing the burden of blame for my shortcomings. I also don't think that means that I need to dwell on the marathon while I'm working on the 10k at the moment. Like if you guys think I'm not humble in my financial situation currently, then you're definitely wrong. I look at a few of the really successful people here and I'd like to be there eventually. I absolutely acknowledge that takes an obscene amount of self control and an admirable amount of work, but I am doing what I can currently. That's all I can do, and I think it's good enough right now. 95% of my financial focus is hitting this budget, coming under on most categories (and even money on the others), and then improving from there. The other 5% is selling stuff so we can stop paying interest just a little bit quicker. What is the difference between worth(less) and worthless? I'm worth less than I could be? Because I would agree with you on that point. e: couple updates. e2: basically I'm going with the slow and steady, only so I can get in the habit of coming under budget. I don't feel like this inflated budget is the best I can do at this point right now (I mean we did way better than this just last month), but it will help me build my financial skill set for the future, right? At least that was the impression I was getting. I'm fine with that. Knyteguy fucked around with this message at 07:59 on Mar 19, 2016 |
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2016 07:35
|
|
|
I think that would be a respectable stance for you. You do seem to have improved relative to the very low base you began with, and you accept your (current) incompetency.Knyteguy posted:What is the difference between worth(less) and worthless? ... it's important to try to focus on the positives You think too highly of yourself, have an excessive sense of self-worth (with respect to your finances). I think you focus too much on the positive, and not enough on the negative. This may not be your intended message, but the message apparently received is that you think too highly of yourself. Your faults are in the past, you are all right currently and there is no need to dwell upon or learn from past mistakes. If you truly think that there is nothing to learn, why are you still here? Knyteguy posted:“Like if you guys think I'm not humble in my financial situation currently”
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2016 07:59
|
|
|
John Smith posted:I think that would be a respectable stance for you. You do seem to have improved relative to the very low base you began with, and you accept your (current) incompetency. Yes! That's it. I am very proud of the of where I am now compared to where I was. I sat down and had dinner with my grandma for some extra budgeting advice, and she was very impressed with the budget and the planning, and the bank account balance, etc. I do think it's something to be happy about. I am happy about it. John Smith posted:You think too highly of yourself, have an excessive sense of self-worth (with respect to your finances). I think you focus too much on the positive, and not enough on the negative. This may not be your intended message, but the message apparently received is that you think too highly of yourself. Your faults are in the past, you are all right currently and there is no need to dwell upon or learn from past mistakes. If you truly think that there is nothing to learn, why are you still here? Sometimes I think there's little else to learn briefly, but then I quickly realize I'm wrong. In fact I was just talking over PM with a BFC poster about exactly that. I absolutely despise the style of learning sometimes, but I acknowledged awhile ago that it comes with the territory. It's mostly the hyperbole that gets to me. I think I tend to focus more on the negatives in my own head. Right now I am focused more on the positives, but that's just because I'm kind of rolling with the good stuff that's been going on with debt, the budget, the fact that the thread has (or so I thought) moved on from the PC fiasco and it's back to business etc. If you want a negative then I'll be very, very unhappy if we can only put $403.75 towards debt every month, or anywhere close to that. I'm definitely not aiming for the minimum here. I'm also unhappy that a budget needs to be this inflated. I'm unhappy with my awful lack of progress with smoking and the roughly $120 I'll be spending out my discretionary this month on them, and I'm really, really unhappy that we don't have a house yet. I'm embarrassed the thread has been around this long, that I haven't started a successful side business, that I haven't found a new job in an amazing field for jobs. I have a whole list. So, yeah I definitely acknowledge that there's stuff to work on. But if I dwell on that I think I'll get depressed and fall into a spending trap. Seriously that's one of the reasons I try to stay positive about this whole thing now that I think about it. I'm not trying to hide this from you guys or something. I figured it was a given. (correct grammar for that figure of speech?) John Smith posted:Yes. I think that is the general sentiment around here. The other posters should feel free to correct me, if not so. Not at all. I often have self-esteem issues, even. Financially and otherwise. Knyteguy fucked around with this message at 08:18 on Mar 19, 2016 |
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2016 08:13
|
|
|
Knyteguy posted:But if I dwell on that I think I'll get depressed and fall into a spending trap. Seriously that's one of the reasons I try to stay positive about this whole thing now that I think about it. Such problems in dealing in constructive criticism would be an issue then. Falling into a vicious spiral of depression, instead of taking constructive actions. This being financial E/N, the posters have already suggested what you can do to deal with it. I suppose we shall see whether you live up to your promises on 01 May and actually attend that-which-shall-not-be-named.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2016 08:51
|
|
|
The way you write, you don't come across as interested in improving your habits. At all. You don't come across as humble or interested in improvement. You come across like you're happy with what you want because it'll get you exactly what your goals are. This is not true. You've already had to give up several goals, and if your ability to control your spending does not improve, you will have to give up more goals. You oftentimes treat the posters in this thread like you're being harangued against your will to do something you don't want to do, and honestly, that is insulting because the only reason people are hassling you is because you say poo poo like "I want to get 20k out of debt and save up 20% for a down payment on a house in one year" or "I want to quit my stable job for an unstable one and don't have a financial plan for how to deal with that sort of income" or "I want to spend X amount in discretionary" and then start taking little baby steps in the absolute wrong direction. You set your own goals and the thread gives you advice based on what they think will help you achieve those goals. You are making small improvements but from your posts, you sound like you're done and uninterested in improving further. You have a long way to go. You don't have to go as far as possible if that's not what you want. But you are absolutely inflating how well you are actually doing and not acknowledging the fact that your habits and behaviors are still a work in progress. You say things like "I'm unhappy we don't have a house," "I'm unhappy that our discretionary is so inflated," and basically the rest of your list you just posted. You don't sound happy. You don't sound satisfied. You don't sound like your financial life is going exactly the way you want it to be going and this thread wants to change that for you. You say you're happy, but the other things you reveal say the exact opposite. In the exact same post! Are you happy with where you are right now? No you are not. Will hiding your feelings from the thread cause your feelings to go away? No it will not. We're unhappy because you're unhappy. Show some loving honesty once in a while and admit when things aren't going so well, or when you're struggling, or when you're demoralized, and people will see the honesty for what it is and try to comfort you a bit more or use a softer touch. Don't just try to put on a positive front and pretend the bad things aren't there and that you aren't worried about things. It's okay to be anxious or unsure or cautious. And it's very important to be realistic.I feel like you're hiding from negative things (or things you perceive to be negative) instead of acknowledging them, accepting them, and then working through them. I'll be an example about the kind of honesty and feelings and thinking poo poo I'm talking about : I'm currently 60 over budget on my (weekly) discretionary, which I know because I use a cash system and I went to the ATM off-schedule to take out 60 bucks, and now I have no cash. This is because a friend I never see was in town on Weds, and then on Fri, my coworkers wanted to go out (and another coworker had a loving birthday), when I already spent a bunch of money on a movie and nice dinner over the weekend. But these are people I never hang out with outside of work, so I decided the socializing was more important than not breaking my weekly discretionary amount. I also pulled from slush to buy weed this month, which is actually in-budget and not normally a problem because that's part of what my slush category is for. The dinner fit. Weds almost fit. Fri definitely did not fit. I'm gonna deal with the 60 overage by pulling it from my slush too, which is also what it's for but not great if I'm buying drugs the same month, so it makes me feel kinda cautious. I can't be bothered to run numbers to see how much I'd have left in slush, so my plan is to stay in this weekend (aside from my already-scheduled stuff that's in-budget) and probably not go out for the rest of the month if I can help it. Some people I'll tell I'm out of budget for this month, and other people I'll tell I went out too much recently and wanna stay in, if I get invited to things. That will keep me under the soft limit for the month, so whatever, it's not breaking my overall budget. If I really cared, I could probably make it up in the next two weeks by cutting other poo poo instead of hitting slush, but I'd rather have nice things so I won't. I feel mildly concerned about my spending decisions but think they were ok this month, convinced I need to increase my budget soon (we had a minimum wage increase that's affected a lot of prices, also I reaaaally need to adjust for inflation) but still too lazy to make that decision permanent, and pretty resolute about not going out for dinner or alcohol anymore this month with people unless it's for something that I'd reasonably consider important. I didn't do anything tooooo dumb in Jan or Feb so as long as I don't have "a million birthday and alcohol and nice dinner" emergencies in April, I'm gonna let it go and not care too much about my spending habits. I do not consider myself demoralized or unhappy with my spending habits. Emotionally, I am a little bit cautious/uncertain but rationally I know it doesn't matter and I don't really care (because my savings rate is fine). My performance this month is projected to be "adequate, could be better", versus my usual performance of "cool, good job, keep it up". I am not actively happy about how this month's gonna shake out, but I am not unhappy and I am still overall satisfied with how my long-term goals are going and do not feel I am doing anything that will meaningfully impact my goals. Having thought this through, I am not particularly upset or bothered by the 60 overage, especially since I haven't pulled off-schedule from an ATM in a long time, and am probably gonna forget about and not think about this again if May rolls around and I haven't done anything excessive. I'm not even going to explicitly mention the obvious way in which you can address a self-esteem issue, spending traps as a reaction to being depressed, defensiveness and an unwillingness to listen as a reaction to having your weak spots poked out, how much it messes you up to think about times when you try hard and fall short, or how uncomfortable you are at the idea of admitting failure out loud.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2016 12:26
|
|
|
Knyteguy posted:I need you to explain with maybe an example if you want me to understand what you're saying. You did coke while drunk with a friend, which is a pretty bad fuckup on multiple levels -- "I have a kid and need to not do this", "It was an unplanned expense and probably out of budget", "I should not make these sorts of decisions when drunk", "It probably upset the wife". Your reaction was to hide it from the thread. When the information was revealed, you first tried to minimize how bad the incident was by throwing it in during the middle of the "how did you spend so much money in one month and now you're lying about it" brand-new gaming computer fiasco. You also minimized it by treating it as not a big deal and getting defensive about it and talking about how useless and meaningless it was to talk about it. You then magnified the insults you got by blowing up over how mad you were that people were calling you names over it, eventually culminating in trying again to minimize the cocaine fuckup by throwing the "I bought a 2000 dollar gaming PC" comment into the thread like a loving squid squirting ink and then closing the thread for a while. Here's the link: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3586966&pagenumber=142&perpage=40#post451445503 You regularly magnify what criticisms people make of you, turning them into huge insults that you then get very upset over when the original insult is basically the equivalent of a child upending a checkers board because they think the other person is cheating. You're incredibly unaware of your own emotional and psychological limitations, as evidenced by, well, all the times you confidently say you'll spend X amount and then spend more. You regularly minimize failing your budget or doing whatever by throwing smoke in with the comment of how happy you are with your progress and how much debt you paid off in the given month. You magnify the effectiveness/importance/success of selling things to pay off debt (the sand rail), while failing to address other important ways to reduce debt, such as "spending less money". Mostly, if the tone of the thread or the subject matter starts to get uncomfortable for you, you generally change the subject, using different levels of aggression based on how effective your first attempts are -- sometimes you pick an insult and react extremely negatively, sometimes you fixate on the small often unrelated successes you did make, sometimes you just get super defensive about whatever it is, and sometimes you give up and leave (or close) the thread for a while (usually a better solution than the others, if you need a cooling off period). (I'm not trying to attack or insult you for no reason here. A lot of these things are just how people react when upset. But I definitely think you should strive to be more self-aware of your own emotional state and try to exercise more control over your reactions when upset.)
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2016 13:09
|
|
|
Horking Delight posted:(I'm not trying to attack or insult you for no reason here. A lot of these things are just how people react when upset. But I definitely think you should strive to be more self-aware of your own emotional state and try to exercise more control over your reactions when upset.) He is aware, hence his acknowledged need for that-which-shall-not-be-named. He promised to attend by 01 May 2016.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2016 13:43
|
|
|
If we're talking about magnified, take a look at the edit to the OP from Thursday, which mirrors KG's current crowing about how much debt he's paid off.Knyteguy posted:Purpose of thread and how we'll meet our goals: The problem is, of course, that people quoted his original OP (see slap me silly's response on page 2), and according to KG he was $30,000 in debt. KG - this is such loving horseshit I don't even know where to begin. You're kid was not a debt "at or near the beginning of the thread". It was a decision you made 7 months after the thread started when it was crystal clear your finances were hosed. That you saved for the medical expenses and have continued to budget for month-to-month child expenses is commendable. But you don't get to call that "starting debt" and then crow about how you paid it off. It's like you were 3 metres down the well, fell down to 4.6 m, and then climbed to 2.1 m.* Sure, you climbed 2.5 m, but you're only 0.9 m better off than when you started. I mean, why don't you include that $20,000 medical debt your still hoping will go away that you never intended to pay and say you're $44 K net towards debt? It's as meaningless as what you are doing now, which is just another shell game with numbers to make it look like you are doing better than you are. I have no doubt you were, plus or minus, $30 K in debt at the beginning, as you originally stated, and not "oh I forgot about all these other debts we were really worse off," because, again, the baby doesn't count, as it was new "debt" you accumulated after you swore to start digging out. And now the count is $21,500. $8,500 paid off over 29 months (between Nov 2013 and Mar 2016), or just over $290/mo. Bravo? After the stated goal was debt paid off by the end of 2015 with $20K in the bank match Grandma for a down payment on a house. Knyteguy posted:My grandma stopped by my work today so we could have lunch, as we do every Wednesday. I mentioned to her our plans to start knocking down our debt, and our want to buy a house in the next 2 years or so. She's definitely the type of person that is good with finances so I generally talk to her about this stuff (she has her house paid off, very frugal and selective about her purchases, etc). Anyway before I digress too much I want to mention she put an offer on the table: if we can get out of debt, and also save $20,000 for a house, she will match us $20,000 Did she extend the deadline for you, are are you SOL? I know she said she was impressed with how far you've come. If I was a cynical man, I would postulate that a lot of this drive to pay down debt - and number salad making to make it look like you are rocketing out of debt - is a foundation for the eventual "Look how great we're doing guys! I don't even need therapy!" But it's not May 1 so we'll have to see. It would be the obvious ending for the next thread boom/bust cycle. As for the last bunch of pages - I'm in agreement with a lot of what people are saying. For example, there are no kudos for buying and selling two PS4s, at a loss, and finally putting that money towards debt. That would probably make the BWM thread if you posted it on reddit. I'm not hip with the language, but it sounds like textbook magnifying your achievement while minimalizing how big a gently caress up it all was in the first place, and how much debt you would have paid off if you hadn't bought two PS4s and instead put all of the money towards debt a long time ago (saving interest payments). All of that said, reading back over the first few pages you HAVE come a long way from the days of defending $100 Costco toothbrushes and a $430 bass guitar as a birthday present for you wife (still playing?). But don't magnify this achievement and minimalize how far you have left to go. Which based on your current attitudes and how you are still playing shell games is quite a distance. It is always worth repeating - no one would bother replying in this thread if they didn't care or had no faith that you could actually achieve goals you set for yourself. That said, this is almost the E/N equivalent of thread consensus - if people from all over the globe and from all walks of life tell you your thinking is hosed up, it might be time to consider that is the root cause of your problems. *The choice of a well for that analogy was not random.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2016 13:52
|
|
. We have until the end of 2015, so 2 years.
|
Hrm. "You guys need to stop focusing on all the negative stuff from my past!" "You guys need to start focusing on all the positive stuff from my past!" "You guys need to start focusing on the present! But don't forget about the past-- but only the good stuff. Forget the bad stuff." --------- Easter: If you're not getting a basket or anything for your son, great. You didn't budget or save for it, so getting something would probably be considered "financially irresponsible" or whatnot. Good luck with quitting smoking! There was a Bill Nye episode that showed what happened to your lungs when you smoked a single cigarette, and it disgusted/horrified me so much that I've never picked up a cigarette in all my 35 years. I cannot imagine what is going on with your lungs right now. Quitting is one of the best things you can do for yourself.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2016 15:15
|
|
|
John Smith posted:Yes. I think that is the general sentiment ("think [Knyteguy is] not humble in [his] financial situation") around here. The other posters should feel free to correct me, if not so. Yup. Judging by the dogpile, my perception is accurate. We *do* think you think too highly of your efforts and do not react well to constructive criticism. Hopefully, you actually do attend that-which-shall-not-be-named by 01 May 2016. By most/all accounts, you have made some improvements of note. We are simply not that impressed given the (small-ish) magnitude of these improvements and how loudly you are bragging about them. You got a C-. That is better than the D you had, but let's not break out the champagne just yet, ok? John Smith fucked around with this message at 15:41 on Mar 19, 2016 |
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2016 15:33
|
|
|
Really, the issue is that the thread has been around for, what, two years? And every time the cycle goes "KG does something positive for less than a month" -> "people are skeptical due to past performance" -> "why does no one ever praise me! All that stuff is in the past!" -> "KG goes dark and does something financially stupid in the mean time." Like, good job, you get a star for (so far) following your new budget. You don't get to pretend that you're 100% newly changed and can handle your goals of debt pay down the rest of the way, and people are skeptical because past performance has shown that you can't. I know that sounds really harsh but if it weren't true then this thread would have ended a while back or would just be full of followed budgets by now.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2016 15:45
|
|
|
Knyteguy posted:she's "afraid of touching my computer" Also stop thinking about what TV you're going to buy post-debt. TVs will be entirely different by then. Stop setting yourself up to spend. Stop window-shopping, for ANYTHING. Christ.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2016 18:40
|
|
|
Knyteguy posted:So, yeah I definitely acknowledge that there's stuff to work on. But if I dwell on that I think I'll get depressed and fall into a spending trap. Seriously that's one of the reasons I try to stay positive about this whole thing now that I think about it. This thread blew up for a couple of reasons, one of which I think you should ignore and one I think you should take to heart: 1. BFC attracts some frugal motherfuckers. They are very good at cutting their budgets to the bone, and their immediate instinct when faced with discretionary purchasing information is to analyze it for areas of reduction. I've been following this thread since the beginning and have long concluded that this is fundamentally not who you are (which is fine!), so you should really just ignore those people. Don't get sucked into defending everything, just ignore them. 2. You're talking about spending, you're not talking about budgeting. As others have pointed out, success does not lie in the short-term accomplishments. Success is adopting a financial system and habits that will allow you to consistently control your spending and consciously define and achieve your long-term financial goals. Of course the short-term accomplishments are awesome, but if the way you talk about them makes people think they aren't the direct result of a well-understand system that will work for you in both good times and bad, that's a net negative, not a positive. Analogy time: you're a poker player. You've been losing consistently over the years, so finally you go to a forum full of poker experts and ask their advice on how to become a winning player. They give you advice, and sometimes you seem to be getting it, other times you fall back into old patterns and lose your rear end. At best, it's been a bumpy road. Then you have a nice run with several winning sessions in a row. "Finally!" you announce. "I've got this game figured out!" And who knows, maybe you do. But without evidence that you are following a long-term winning strategy consistently during those sessions, people aren't going to be happy for you. They know it's just temporary, so they aren't going to want to listen to how you smoked that guy with your backdoor flush draw that happened to hit and that's why you're going to win the World Series Main Event next year. It's counterproductive. Does this make sense? I'm sure it feels like a no-win situation when you come out ahead and people are still jumping down your throat, but it's more of a communication issue than anything else. Focus on describing how your budget/financial system is working for you and informing your spending decisions and I think people will get more on board, even if you slip up here and there. Don't focus on defending your purchases and explaining how unavoidable they were.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2016 18:41
|
|
|
A lot of people are also frustrated by the accounting tricks he uses when he talks about how good he's doing. Personally I'm not even sure if he is doing it intentionally, but for example he keeps talking about how he paid off $5700 in 3 months and that is a great pace to achieve everything he wants. Does anyone think that the $5700 he paid is anywhere close to equivalent to $22800 per year? The way KG talks about it, I get the impression HE thinks it is, but once again I'm not really sure what he's thinking. I am too lazy to find the posts again, but if I remember right that $5700 came in part from: A tax refund (should count as annual savings over 12 months in 2015) Sold a PS4 at a loss Borrowed money from like April's anticipated budget or something using his emergency cash, I can't remember exactly So there is a disconnect where KG says he saved $1900 a month for 3 months in a row, and BFC says you did a bunch of goofy math, and KG says he doesn't know why people are bitching at him. That is basically the pattern that has been repeating for years. I think mostly BFC wants KG to view things in objective reality, and stop with the goofy games and budget changes. I would personally like to see KG make a post that completely non-defensively and objectively includes the following information: 1. His debt+savings at the beginning of the thread, his debt+savings at the end of the thread, how many months the thread has been open so far, and what the rate per month of change has been. 2. A list of things he wants to achieve by the time he is 65. Pay for college? Buy a house? Save $500k in 2016 dollars for retirement? 3. An evaluation of whether or not the rate of change in step 1 is enough to pay for everything in step 2. If not, how does he plan to make those two things sync up?
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2016 18:55
|
|
|
OMG, I find it hilarious that he continues to hide purchases and then gets all pissy when people are all "WTF, dude?" Why does this thread exist, again? Clearly KG has no interest in improving. I think he likes the abuse. Edit: waitwaitwait, part of that obfuscation last fall was a loving COKE BENDER?! This is around the same time he bought the Camaro, right? KG, I want to see a picture of you in one of those painters caps with the flaps in the back. For bonus points, wear acid-washed jeans and a too-big shirt with some crazy bright pattern on it. loving hell. Old Fart fucked around with this message at 19:08 on Mar 19, 2016 |
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2016 19:02
|
|
|
At this point the only thing that'll satisfy BFC that he's not playing games is a complete, transaction-by-transaction record of all his accounts for a month. Which he won't do, for privacy reasons. And I understand the privacy argument, but when one of your slip ups was "hid spending money* on drugs from the people you asked to help you with your finances" it's tough to come back from that. *only like a hundred bucks or something, guys, c'mon, quit holding his past against him
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2016 19:13
|
|
|
Droo posted:A lot of people are also frustrated by the accounting tricks he uses when he talks about how good he's doing. Personally I'm not even sure if he is doing it intentionally, but for example he keeps talking about how he paid off $5700 in 3 months and that is a great pace to achieve everything he wants. Does anyone think that the $5700 he paid is anywhere close to equivalent to $22800 per year? The way KG talks about it, I get the impression HE thinks it is, but once again I'm not really sure what he's thinking. Personally, I'm waiting for KG to count the collection accounts that just fell off his credit report as part of his "debt reduction."
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2016 20:19
|
|
|
It seems like Knyte just has real trouble feeling bad feelings. Seems like when faced with the disapproval of BFC/disappointment in himself/whatever, his first move is to find something to drown himself in so he doesn't have to think about it. I wonder what would happen if he just took some time alone and tried to actually explore those feelings when they started happening. I think Horking nailed the problem. I was going to quote his big post on his own reflections, but it's tough on my phone. But I think another way to put that sort of attitude is thinking about it as "excuses" versus "reasons." I think Knyte thinks that he is giving us reasons for his behavior, when all we see is excuses. On the other hand I think Horking's post is more what we're looking for; he's examining his behavior and motivations and why he acts that way. How do you tell what's an excuse for behavior and what's a reason? Excuses HAVE to be shared. In fact, we feel an urge to share them immediately after revealing facts. Take the recent discussion about the PS4 for example. Excuses place responsibility on external factors, whether that's people or situations or what. For example, Knyte saying he doesn't like sharing with the thread because the thread is a bunch of assholes. Whether that is an accurate assessment is irrelevant. That not really the reason for his behavior of keeping things from the thread. (I have a feeling the actual reason is "when people poo poo on me for something I know was a bad move, I feel deeply ashamed and upset and I have trouble coping with those feelings, so I try to avoid them by avoiding the thread.") Reasons feel different. Reasons give you some enlightenment into how to fix the situation you are experiencing. For example, Horking noted that he broke his budget because he didn't care enough. Then he thought about why he didn't care, and if the very idea of not caring was something to be concerned about. He then decided that if he could confine his budget breaking to just this week, that it was not something to worry about overmuch in the end. He then made a plan for making sure his budget overages didn't continue (plans for what to tell people, how to spend next weekend). I assume that Horking will revisit these thoughts after next weekend, and see if his plan was successful. If it was, great. If it wasn't, he'll probably go through the same process of examining his reasons (not finding excuses) and creating a new plan for himself. Excuses make things feel hopeless since they are always things that are out of your control. Reasons are personal and easily lead to a plan for the future.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2016 20:36
|
|
|
One of the interesting parts of this thread is how KG convinces everyone, including himself, that this time he's learned his lesson. The most simple analogy I can say for what happens is it's 2 steps forward and 1.9 steps back. I said I tapped out of the thread until he got some professional help this fall, but here I am still posting away like a dope. I think it is correct that KG is, at least for the most part, not really budgeting. The good thing is for the last few months, he has spent less than what he has made, and he has used it to pay off debt. The fact that this money is essentially gone will help prevent purchases like the computer and the camaro, because the money is not accessible. The only time I can remember that he actually budgeted for a future foreseeable expense would be the birth of his kid. Most of the other large purchases he made seems to come from a combination of shell games, 'I can afford it', or just admitting he hosed up after the fact. The most recent kerfuffle about the HTPC is one of the few cases where he took a beat, used some feedback from this thread, and made a significantly less expensive choice. An upcoming foreseeable expense that KG is not budgeting for is therapy. If KG is going to participate in therapy, odds are very good it won't be free. His insurance company can at least estimate what the costs would be, and KG could be setting money aside to cover this expense.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2016 21:14
|
|
|
I'm sorry, KG - clinical terminology is a part of my vocabulary, I seriously wasn't trying to diagnose you (and I am not qualified to do so). I think I should have said something like, sometimes you seem to go crazy and be all in on a super frugal budget, "this time I've changed, guys!" and then other times you're buying cars and PCs and PS4s and drugs and not selling sand rails that are just sitting there, and it seems to be a struggle for you (as you present yourself in this thread) to be consistent and stick to a budget that's reasonable for you for an extended period of time. This has happened over and over again during the life of the thread. Just like getting in shape, consistency and habituation is the key to good finances; it's about making good choices over and over, not just for a month or two. You've paid off about 25k in 2.5 years plus handled the new baby, which is great! But you still have that amount to go and you've stated that you also want to save that amount for a down payment, so you're looking at maybe having the 25k down for a house in ~4-5 years from now - if you continue on at your current spending and earning pace, other major future financial hurdles aside. Are you OK with that? The potential of a house in 5 years? What about starting retirement savings?
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2016 21:22
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 27, 2024 04:45 |
|
|
I'm still following, KG. I just haven't had a lot to say because I'm pretty lost in all the smoke and mirrors at this point. Like, it really shouldn't be this confusing but it is? Lying to the thread is just so bizarre to me. I thought this was a "BFC, help me I have legitimate financial woes" not, "BFC I don't want to look bad to ya'll." What we think about you really should matter just about zero but you keep biting and replying to incendiary comments because you're letting people on the internet get to you. Look, generally, people do want you to succeed. You want positive comments? Be honest and let the numbers speak for themselves. Good job on doing better with debt, but what's more important is showing you can be consistent at maintaining the financial lifestyle you want for yourself. Paying down extra on blah blah and blah doesn't really prove a lot because it's not a pattern. We're all wondering if you're going to come in here next month or something going, "Oh because I spent a lot of extra on debt and ____ came up, we're really in the red this month." I hope this thread starts getting boring and we go like, 6 months without arguments about why your impulsive purchase of ____ and how you weren't prepared for ____ is so infuriating. I'm sick of having a new KG THREAD SURPRISE!! every like, 1.5 months.
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2016 01:44
|
|
