|
LuciferMorningstar posted:Maybe not all difficulties should be accessible to everyone. I never said or implied this. Allen Wren posted:You probably don't know, so I'm just going to clue you in, you definitely sound like an rear end in a top hat right now. This. Discendo Vox posted:I also agree with LM's general sentiment about balance-not everything needs to be accessible to the average pubbie- doing so places limits on several dimensions of how you could approach design. On the other hand, I think it's safe to say that DW isn't well-made as a difficulty, and that RBR accelerates its problems. The average Pubbie is a really poor player and I don't expect a group of them to do DW. Catering to the low end is the same problem to catering to the high end. Both limit you're gameplay design. The high end has you limiting the player more, while the low end has you limiting the gameplay. How I see it is DW should be doable with three fairly good mic using dudes dragging the fourth kicking and screaming across the finishing line. I do agree with you the DW isn't a very good designed difficulty, it reeks of technical limitations rather than design limitations. The evidence we have for this are the far larger maps since discontinuing the older consoles and higher enemy counts. With RBR, stealthing the first bit with the computer is a near must as that cuts out a lot of loud time on map. Once loud, the team moves as a whole to the explosives planting holding in the election booth as required. Flamer ahead with the team sweeps for Cloakers. Two man group then move to the elevators while the other group retakes and holds the booths again so to hold a corridor for the drill team to return through. Set drill then hold out in the corridor with two entrances beside the bank so you have some access to the drill without sucking up snipers. The big entrance sucks up most of the spawns while the door team moves on the drill as needed and on their judgement. Vault opens, hold out in vault room as required. Rearm and refit to move out as group to the escape with flamer taking point. Kill snipers if possible otherwise speed is your friend. Ammo is to be spent freely. Host carries RPG and is on dozer duty. Toss out Inspire naturally. Move out on Fade. It is the very last part of the escape that always fucks us up as there is no real cover and it's open.
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2016 05:32
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 00:38 |
|
oohhboy posted:I never said or implied this. oohhboy posted:Git Gud is a bad way to design game. You guy keep forgetting that you're probably the top 5% of players. Designing a game for 5% of players is a really good way to piss everyone off with an unplayable game as there are always people demanding more and more ramping up.
|
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2016 05:38
|
|
|
You're bad at reading.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2016 05:41
|
|
|
I'm awful at the game and play with a gamepad and I've pubstoved several DW heists hth
|
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2016 05:44
|
|
|
oohhboy posted:How I see it is DW should be doable with three fairly good mic using dudes dragging the fourth kicking and screaming across the finishing line. This happens on a pretty regular basis in the pub games I'm in, minus the whole "using mics" part. It's also partly map dependent, but there are plenty of competent DW pubbies as there are plenty of poo poo ones.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2016 05:51
|
|
|
My experience is on the pretty poo poo side and with them unwilling to follow any sort of instructions nor act in preservation of self or help do objectives. Not to say I haven't seen good players, the vast majority I find are a terrible comedy option. Mind the small sample size and bias.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2016 06:00
|
|
oohhboy posted:You're bad at reading. You argued there was only one way to approach DW. You bitched about not being able to run DW with 3 randoms (something several other people in this thread do on a regular basis). You argued balancing (DW) around the best players is bad balancing (which suggests that DW should be accessible to the "average" player). Pretty sure the issue here is that you have no idea what you're talking about.
|
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2016 06:04
|
|
|
UnknownMercenary posted:This happens on a pretty regular basis in the pub games I'm in, minus the whole "using mics" part. It's also partly map dependent, but there are plenty of competent DW pubbies as there are plenty of poo poo ones. How much of the pubbie population would you be willing to say can do it though? Let's not mix words here. Rough estimate numbers or percentages.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2016 06:14
|
|
|
There is a reason why there are DW rated equipment as anything less than that is likely to get you and your team killed. Camping during assaults is the one option available. I never said DW it should be balanced around the "average" player, I said it should open up to more than the top 5%. As for running with X number of pub players, mind the sample size, biases and map in question. I am sorry, I am just not going to stroke your E-Peen on how much of a man you are with DW. You're so far up the masochist path you don't know what fun is anymore. Grapplejack posted:I've posted my idea for Deathwish in the thread but it's basically L4D's Realism mode: no outlines, ammo pickup reduced to .8x, cops do bonus damage to health. Overkill stuff with skulldozers and elites mixed in. These are good ideas and far more fun than more DPS and health.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2016 06:18
|
|
|
oohhboy posted:I am sorry, I am just not going to stroke your E-Peen on how much of a man you are with DW. You're so far up the masochist path you don't know what fun is anymore. DW isn't that hard bro.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2016 06:24
|
|
|
Dr Cheeto posted:DW isn't that hard bro. Depending on map it isn't, just aggressively unfun.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2016 06:26
|
|
|
oohhboy posted:Depending on map it isn't, just aggressively unfun. I disagree, but you should probably play a game or difficulty you find fun instead of telling people who enjoy a game or difficulty that they don't know what fun is.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2016 06:28
|
|
|
Dr Cheeto posted:I disagree, but you should probably play a game or difficulty you find fun instead of telling people who enjoy a game or difficulty that they don't know what fun is. Not when they are doing the opposite and demanding they make it even more difficult. Two sides of the same coin.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2016 06:30
|
|
|
oohhboy posted:Not when they are doing the opposite and demanding they make it even more difficult. Two sides of the same coin. It's only natural for players who have effectively mastered a difficulty to wish for a greater challenge. Why is this strange to you? Why would you care if a difficulty you don't even enjoy becomes more difficult, or if an additional difficulty was added?
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2016 06:32
|
|
oohhboy posted:There is a reason why there are DW rated equipment as anything less than that is likely to get you and your team killed. There isn't anymore though.  Aside from the Chimano 88 there isn't really anything that you can't make work on DW.
|
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2016 06:33
|
|
|
Dr Cheeto posted:It's only natural for players who have effectively mastered a difficulty to wish for a greater challenge. Why is this strange to you? Why would you care if a difficulty you don't even enjoy becomes more difficult, or if an additional difficulty was added? It's not strange, but why take everyone else for the ride? This isn't XCOM 2 where you can do this with no impact on anybody else. See the jackasses who run DW+ for a preview as to what these people are asking for. If DW wasn't about raw DPS and health, probably wouldn't complain about it. As it stand there isn't anything clever about DW. L4D2 Realism mode is clever.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2016 06:41
|
|
|
If we're adding new dual wields then add in dual locos ala that Punisher game for the ps2
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2016 06:45
|
|
|
oohhboy posted:It's not strange, but why take everyone else for the ride? This isn't XCOM 2 where you can do this with no impact on anybody else. See the jackasses who run DW+ for a preview as to what these people are asking for. If DW wasn't about raw DPS and health, probably wouldn't complain about it. As it stand there isn't anything clever about DW. L4D2 Realism mode is clever. So a mod nobody ITT seems to like exists, which simultaneously invalidates any desire for a higher difficulty and justifies this weird confrontational attitude you have towards people who like a thing you don't like?
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2016 06:50
|
|
|
The mod certainly proves that almost no one really knows how to make the game harder in a way that will please everyone. Just look at Vox.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2016 06:56
|
|
oohhboy posted:It's not strange, but why take everyone else for the ride? Because not all difficulties should be accessible to everyone 
|
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2016 06:57
|
|
|
donacdum @ thread
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2016 06:58
|
|
|
Dr Cheeto posted:So a mod nobody ITT seems to like exists, which simultaneously invalidates any desire for a higher difficulty and justifies this weird confrontational attitude you have towards people who like a thing you don't like? Upping the DPS and Health is going down that road that DW+ is doing. If you want something beyond DW, be clever about it. I rather rework current DW into something more clever. It's better to improve a difficulty rather than just increasing it. Look at how Normal to Overkill handles difficulty. LuciferMorningstar posted:Because not all difficulties should be accessible to everyone I am part of that top 5% and I don't want to be taken for that ride, so shove off.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2016 07:03
|
|
|
oohhboy posted:I am part of that top 5% and I don't want to be taken for that ride, so shove off. What does this even mean? Are you convinced that all the pro copclickers are gonna start running that bad mod on public lobbies so when you join a lobby for a difficulty you already don't enjoy you're afraid you might have even less fun than usual?
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2016 07:11
|
|
|
Dr Cheeto posted:What does this even mean? Are you convinced that all the pro copclickers are gonna start running that bad mod on public lobbies so when you join a lobby for a difficulty you already don't enjoy you're afraid you might have even less fun than usual? It's not the Mod I am concerned about, it's the direction these people want to move in. Overkill have been pretty clever about difficulty until DW that I acknowledge it was done for technical reasons at the time. None of what LM advocates for is clever or desirable. I am happy we got new toys like Grinder muscle and more explosive and flamers and all the other things someone screams OP about. It makes DW a little bit more fun not because it give you a little bit more leeway and allows new ways to do things. Take a dive into the Steam forums if you want to see horrifying things some people want done to gameplay. LM represents some of that. Him posting smug faces isn't helping either. Besides, I almost always host, play with friends and only play with pubbies as the comedy option. I play Overkill for fun, but will do DW once to get it out of the way. I don't tend play DW for shits and giggles. Others get lucky with pubs I guess.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2016 07:36
|
|
|
ok but why do you care if they added a new difficulty after deathwish
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2016 07:38
|
|
oohhboy posted:None of what LM advocates for is clever or desirable. Please note that I have not recently put forward any concrete ideas regarding what I might like to see in a difficulty beyond DW.
|
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2016 07:39
|
|
|
CommunistPancake posted:ok but why do you care if they added a new difficulty after deathwish Because, gently caress now I have to do it to be an idiot completionist as I am already too far down that rabbit hole not to.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2016 07:41
|
|
|
oohhboy posted:Because, gently caress now I have to do it to be an idiot completionist as I am already too far down that rabbit hole not to. I NEEDS THEM ACHIEVEMENTS.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2016 07:46
|
|
|
LuciferMorningstar posted:Please note that I have not recently put forward any concrete ideas regarding what I might like to see in a difficulty beyond DW. LuciferMorningstar posted:This is false, unless you are bad at shooting the mans. Crabtree posted:The pubbie national anthem of "This game is Too Easy". You started this by being a dick. I am glad that you didn't have any concrete ideas as it shows you bring nothing of value to the discussion. Crabtree posted:I NEEDS THEM ACHIEVEMENTS. 
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2016 07:51
|
|
|
oohhboy posted:It's not the Mod I am concerned about, it's the direction these people want to move in. Overkill have been pretty clever about difficulty until DW that I acknowledge it was done for technical reasons at the time. None of what LM advocates for is clever or desirable. I am happy we got new toys like Grinder muscle and more explosive and flamers and all the other things someone screams OP about. It makes DW a little bit more fun not because it give you a little bit more leeway and allows new ways to do things. This is a bunch of hot bullshit and I can't be hosed to pour though the long guide again and collate all the changes in deathwish for you but I can assure you it's more than HP, damage, and headshot multipliers. Here's a fun example off the top of my head: GenSec Elites are immune to medium and heavy hurt animations, where green and tan SWATs aren't. Oh, and let's not extrapolate the desires and wants of one guy who knows lua onto everyone who is good at deathwish. God, I can't imagine the terrible things you'd think of us if Death Vox actually existed. You're taking armchair game designers seriously, which is a pretty terrible life decision and something Overkill really isn't guilty of. The only thing LM has advocated for is for you to Gut Gud because your complaints about deathwish requiring One True Strat is actually false and the fact you find it unfun is probably a tip that you're not doing it right.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2016 07:58
|
|
oohhboy posted:You started this by being a dick. I am glad that you didn't have any concrete ideas as it shows you bring nothing of value to the discussion. I'll stop being a dick for one post, just for you. I agree that making numbers bigger is a lazy way to increase difficulty, but grant that it's effective. I'd much prefer to see the enemies behave more intelligently, but I really have no faith in the developers of basically any FPS game to make that happen. I don't think it's unreasonable to do things like increase the amount of damage enemies do, increase how fast they aim, or how many there are. Those kinds of things challenge the players on how quickly they themselves can shoot the mans, without getting wrecked in doing so. The real question is where to draw the line. I also don't think it's unreasonable to increase resource pressure, by making health/ammo harder to come by. Making ammo more precious by increasing enemy health doesn't seem terribly interesting to me, though, so I'd prefer that not be the route taken. I'd much rather prefer players be more vulnerable than enemies be less vulnerable, if it has to come to that. There's probably other stuff I'm neglecting to mention, so I reserve the right to amend my statements. I'm also not arguing that these ideas are necessarily the best ideas, or the most correct ones.
|
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2016 08:05
|
|
|
Ideally, DW would focus less on more numbers than changing levels for a real challenge. Stuff like less cover and more open areas with weak cops - the opening of goat simulator is brutal because of the sheer number of bronco cops mixed in with civilians. Have stuff like that happen more often. Things like setting objectives far from each other so that the team has to cover more ground or spread themselves thin in order to achieve. That's a lot harder to do than crank up spawns and DPS though.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2016 08:08
|
|
clockworkjoe posted:Ideally, DW would focus less on more numbers than changing levels for a real challenge. Stuff like less cover and more open areas with weak cops - the opening of goat simulator is brutal because of the sheer number of bronco cops mixed in with civilians. Have stuff like that happen more often. Things like setting objectives far from each other so that the team has to cover more ground or spread themselves thin in order to achieve. That's a lot harder to do than crank up spawns and DPS though. I don't buy that more objectives would work. It's a central theme of Death Vox, and stuff like Eurobag Simulator suggest to me that most people are perfectly capable of doing lots of objectives and hanging out on a map for a while. It's loving boring, though, so let's not. Forcing people to split up might be a viable approach, though. There has to be some coercion involved, though, otherwise I assume teams would just slowly grind through the objectives together. Again, boring. I think less cover is also potentially questionable. "No cover, lots of cops that will one-shot you. Good luck!" Part of being good, IMO, is knowing when and where to take cover. If you've got great reflexes, then gently caress it, just run around shooting everything. That's what I like doing. But if some people want to take a more tactical approach, I think that ought to be supported, too.
|
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2016 08:15
|
|
|
Question is if dodge as we know it will linger in the skill beta and after when skill reworks actually happen. The biggest problem with thinking up any new difficulties or difficulty change is knowing the depth of what the player can do, and we only know the Payday 2 of right now. oohhboy posted:You started this by being a dick. I am glad that you didn't have any concrete ideas as it shows you bring nothing of value to the discussion. Look, I agree we shouldn't be the only ones who decide what shape the game needs to take, but the rest of the community hasn't shown it really knows or engages in even the current difficulty that much either.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2016 08:26
|
|
|
oohhboy: It sounds like you've gotten close to achieving Reputation Beyond Reproach multiple times, but have been foiled at the escape. This is kind of surprising to me, as I can't really remember any of the RBR escapes I've done to be difficult; usually the difficulty is elsewhere in the heist. Are you playing with friends, or with pubbies? Are these friends/pubs invested in getting 100% achievements, or is it just you, and would you attempt RBR with some idiot tryhard goons? Death Wish is kind of a stupid cops numbers boost, especially with saiga Dozers being able to literally instakill players, and that's certainly what makes RBR a difficult, top 5% or whatever achievement. DW as a whole isn't a bullshit unfun difficulty when you're allowed to go down a bunch (at least to me, I had a lot of fun tonight playing some difficult DW heists), and I'm wondering what exactly you're having fault with since most of your posting has been making GBS threads on LM. If you want Reputation Beyond Reproach, we can get you Reputation Beyond Reproach.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2016 08:27
|
|
|
I just like clicking cops.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2016 08:31
|
|
|
ClonedPickle posted:oohhboy: It sounds like you've gotten close to achieving Reputation Beyond Reproach multiple times, but have been foiled at the escape. This is kind of surprising to me, as I can't really remember any of the RBR escapes I've done to be difficult; usually the difficulty is elsewhere in the heist. I can understand it- the area at the exit to ED3 is basically a perfect storm of sniper spawns and cloaker hiding spots. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 10:11 on Mar 20, 2016 |
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2016 08:35
|
|
|
Discendo Vox posted:I can understand it- the area at the exit to ED3 is basically a perfect storm of sniper spawns and cloaker hiding spots. Sure, but I've played Election Day enough to be prepared for those. Killing a couple snipers and five cloakers on the way out is pretty normal.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2016 08:38
|
|
|
Dr Cheeto posted:The only thing LM has advocated for is for you to Gut Gud because your complaints about deathwish requiring One True Strat is actually false and the fact you find it unfun is probably a tip that you're not doing it right. Dr Cheeto posted:This is a bunch of hot bullshit and I can't be hosed to pour though the long guide again and collate all the changes in deathwish for you but I can assure you it's more than HP, damage, and headshot multipliers. Here's a fun example off the top of my head: GenSec Elites are immune to medium and heavy hurt animations, where green and tan SWATs aren't. I wish they revamp it into something more clever now that they have more resources to work with, but it will more than likely remain a wish. ClonedPickle posted:oohhboy: It sounds like you've gotten close to achieving Reputation Beyond Reproach multiple times, but have been foiled at the escape. This is kind of surprising to me, as I can't really remember any of the RBR escapes I've done to be difficult; usually the difficulty is elsewhere in the heist. Are you playing with friends, or with pubbies? Are these friends/pubs invested in getting 100% achievements, or is it just you, and would you attempt RBR with some idiot tryhard goons? Death Wish is kind of a stupid cops numbers boost, especially with saiga Dozers being able to literally instakill players, and that's certainly what makes RBR a difficult, top 5% or whatever achievement. DW as a whole isn't a bullshit unfun difficulty when you're allowed to go down a bunch (at least to me, I had a lot of fun tonight playing some difficult DW heists), and I'm wondering what exactly you're having fault with since most of your posting has been making GBS threads on LM. If you want Reputation Beyond Reproach, we can get you Reputation Beyond Reproach. Discendo Vox posted:I can understand it- the area at the exit to ED3 is basically a perfect storm of sniper spawns and cloaker hiding spots.  . It's not their fault, it's a hosed up escape especially if you have to fight your way through it along with Snipers and Cloakers.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2016 09:07
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 00:38 |
|
oohhboy posted:Maybe I should get better friends because they can't kill as many cops as I can? Yes. If you don't evaluate friends based on their video game prowess, then I don't know what to tell you. E: I have no friends.
|
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2016 09:09
|
|