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DStecks posted:The AAA industry can't even make a Tony Stark type, and that is 110% male indulgence fantasy, that is how stuck they are on rough, grizzled, brooding "badasses". are we meant to feel sorry for you for having a friend who likes CoD? you come off as a elitist if you think you are better then people who enjoy games that are not indie titles. Cyron fucked around with this message at 04:19 on Mar 21, 2016 |
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Mar 21, 2016 04:15
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Cyron posted:are we meant to feel sorry for you for having a friend who likes CoD? you come off as a elitist if you think you are better then people who enjoy games that are not indie titles. you come off as someone with nanometer thin skin who doesn't know when not to post and that doesn't stop you
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Mar 21, 2016 04:31
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Captain Rufus posted:I've always thought that the best way to do non "traditional family values as determined by the US South" is to do it and not make a big deal about it. Don't VERY SPECIAL EPISODE OF BLOSSOM it. If someone is gay don't make it a thing. Just have it there if it comes up but don't hang a giant sign on it. That way it can be seen as normal. A gay man flaunting allusions to their sexuality and/or confidence in in their own feminine expression (though obviously a man does not need to be strictly gay to be confidently effeminate, and the near-universal cultural repression of self-reflective femininity and/or sexual fluidity in men is its own  ) in the face of a society that still tends to only "tolerate" him at best, like his sexuality is somehow an annoyance and inconvenience... Maybe doesn't equal a straight man bold-facedly enforcing long-running toxic ideals of a twisted and narrow-minded form of masculinity through apathetic sexual objectification of women.Look. I get that this sentiment is well-intended, but it's a really shortsighted view of the underlying sociological aspects of how our culture ceaselessly expresses gender and sexuality in most of its facets. Just having gay characters be completely non-expressive of their sexuality beyond bringing it up once as a token mention of relationship can be okay in a relatively and thoroughly non-sexual story, but even (and, let's face it, especially) genre fiction tends to have a major sexual bent to it. So yeah, people with more than the most baseline sex-ed view of... Well, sex, might question the sensibility of a story who's idea of focusing on "universally understandable/relatable romantic and sexual queues" is "traditionally dominant straight-identifying men in traditionally non-sexualized fashion desiring/doing the sex with traditionally submissive straight (or fetishistically bi) women in traditionally sexualized fashion", which still happens a whole lot, and is only more common the more mainstream you get with your media. And don't get me wrong, a focus on The Gay in media can totally backfire, coming off as hand-wringing at best or (mainly in the case of lesbian fiction) oppressively fetishistic at worst. I've already talked about how loving abhorrent Blue Is The Warmest Colour is, but another side of the badly-handled homo-focus coin is The Imitation Game, which basically ends up having a neon sign saying "FEEL BAD FOR THIS GAY CHARACTER BECAUSE HE IS THE GAY AND SUFFERS FROM Infamous Sphere already brought this up more succinctly than I can, but it really seems like most (not all) good and expressive queer-oriented writing comes from actual queer people (with minimal studio input/revisions), no matter how well-intentioned "straight allies" might be. I could get all psychoanalytical and say it's because straight men tend to have a heavy underlying fear of real sexual empathy with non-straight non-males because of deeply-ingrained fallacious heteronormative values or something, but as cathartic as that is to say, it's getting way more into anecdotal conjecture and really doesn't get at the core of why those are even problems in the first place, which is basically the wide-scale systemic stuff that Hbomberguy already talked about way more concisely than I know how to. And hey, if you just don't want to talk or think about sex much, and find sex-focused stuff in otherwise non-sexual media to be generally lame, shallow, and distracting, then more power to you! I actually kind of agree! But it's a thing in our culture, and it's a thing we have to address. If young straight men get to grow into getting lots of flamboyantly ego-massaging sexually-charged cheeseball media, young non-straight men and women and everyone in-between deserves to have some goofball celebratory funtimes too.
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Mar 21, 2016 04:36
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You know what miss? The No One Lives Forever games, they were really fun and they have been lost due to right ownership confusion. 
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Mar 21, 2016 04:36
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Wasn't there a movie that got nominated for a Oscar that star a transgender character that a ton of LGBT members where upset since it portray the character as a sex creep?
Cyron fucked around with this message at 05:08 on Mar 21, 2016 |
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Mar 21, 2016 04:37
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oldman posted:You know what miss? The No One Lives Forever games, they were really fun and they have been lost due to right ownership confusion. System Shock was lost in a very similar way, yet now there's both a remake of the first game and a proper third game in the works, with the originals happily sitting on GOG and Steam. Peeps are dedicated to getting cult classics back, don't lose too much hope (((it's still unlikely though))). Still a bummer that Monolith can't make a NOLF game with their SoM Nemesis system, though. That's a suggestion that's always stuck with me.
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Mar 21, 2016 04:41
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Cyron posted:Wasn't there a movie that got nominated for a Oscar that star a transgender character that a ton of LGBT members where upset since it portray the character as a sex creep? Finding Nemo?
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Mar 21, 2016 05:11
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Moartoast posted:System Shock was lost in a very similar way, yet now there's both a remake of the first game and a proper third game in the works, with the originals happily sitting on GOG and Steam. Peeps are dedicated to getting cult classics back, don't lose too much hope (((it's still unlikely though))). Plus the D&D Gold Box games rights were a loving mess apparently and nobody had any idea who owned the rights to them. Seriously, I am impressed that GOG was able to pull that off
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Mar 21, 2016 05:14
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Moartoast posted:words about sexuality and how it's portrayed It can be a really hard balance but what a lot of people tend to forget is that straight characters VERY OFTEN "flaunt" their sexuality, or have it brought up when it's completely irrelevant, or are viewed in a certain way because of their sexuality. Think of how many movies you've seen with sex scenes that are technically completely unnecessary to the story. I'm willing to be that the vast majority of those scenes were male/female, with possibly a couple of female/female scenes in there if the work's trying to be particularly "edgy." Now I'm not saying that sexuality shouldn't ever be bought up unless it's 100% "relevant." Sexuality is a very important facet of many people's lives, and plays a part in their experiences. This applies to straight sexuality as well as queer sexuality - it's just that straight sexuality is considered normal, and the default, so many people don't even realise how often straight sexuality is brought up, or talked about. Femme/flamboyant queer characters, or butch queer characters can be stereotypical, but these people exist in real life, just as feminine straight women or butch straight men exist in real life. Not representing these people is essentially saying that these identities are kind of invalid/embarrassing, and that people who are like this in real life are doing it specifically to make people uncomfortable? It's hard to articulate this properly but the next time you're thinking about a queer character and how they're portrayed, whether you think it's a good OR a bad portrayal - think of how that character would have been portrayed if they were a straight character, or the opposite sex. That said, LGBT people have issues and experiences in their life that are different from how straight people typically experience the world, for a variety of reasons (discrimination, gender dynamics, being a minority, so on) and ignoring these differences can do characters a disservice, particularly if they're a major character as opposed to a minor or supporting character - but considering how a character might have been portrayed were they replaced with a straight character can be a helpful mental exercise. Infamous Sphere fucked around with this message at 06:34 on Mar 21, 2016 |
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Mar 21, 2016 06:32
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DStecks posted:The AAA industry can't even make a Tony Stark type, and that is 110% male indulgence fantasy, that is how stuck they are on rough, grizzled, brooding "badasses". What about Nathan Drake in Uncharted?
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Mar 21, 2016 06:45
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Max Wilco posted:What about Nathan Drake in Uncharted? People end up finding characters like him incredibly disturbing because he's so cheerful while murdering hundreds of people, and the game doesn't seem particularly aware of that. What I'm getting at is that Saint Row is the best series in terms of having fun characters whose violence is consistent with the universe.
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Mar 21, 2016 06:57
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Beefstew posted:People end up finding characters like him incredibly disturbing because he's so cheerful while murdering hundreds of people, and the game doesn't seem particularly aware of that. There's also the uncomfortable fact that the majority of Drake's "victims" are non white.
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Mar 21, 2016 07:12
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nine-gear crow posted:There's also the uncomfortable fact that the majority of Drake's "victims" are non white. Yeah, there are blue guys in the second game.
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Mar 21, 2016 07:16
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Max Wilco posted:What about Nathan Drake in Uncharted? I don't own a PlayStation. Beefstew posted:People end up finding characters like him incredibly disturbing because he's so cheerful while murdering hundreds of people, and the game doesn't seem particularly aware of that. Ezio worked because the cutscenes never shied away from him being a remorseless killer, but one who doesn't let his ghoulish line of work constantly get him down. He's a swashbuckling type; which is why it was so frustrating that when the series had an actual swashbuckler for a PC he was so utterly dull.
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Mar 21, 2016 07:20
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Infamous Sphere posted:Good sexual portrayal words I am totally in agreement here, and even as a queer person who's fairly picky about good and bad portrayals, I still struggle to articulate why one flamboyantly camp gay character doesn't work for me, when another one with those exact same descriptors does. I think it's part of why queer writers/directors tend to be much better at making queer-focused films in general; They have actual experience and a more natural empathy for people who would be like that in real life (if they aren't themselves) and know how their sexual expression reflects on their life in general, so they have a feel for the nuances of those people that they can then project onto a believable character. I think the idea of "think about how this queer character would be treated if they were straight/cis/binary" is kinda what a lot of folks are trying to do, but they assume that that means "they wouldn't talk about being gay because being gay is out of the ordinary", which leads to a lot of weird sentiments about how the only good gays are silent gays or what have you. Those folks aren't self-reflective enough to realize that they (or at least, the media they consume) talk about sexuality all the time, they just don't notice because it's almost always about the status quo sexuality, which is constantly fed positive reinforcement with little-to-no pushback or feeling of unease around most people they meet or places they go or, y'know, most media they're exposed to. It's at least understandable why people want there to be one easy solution to the "what is a good gay character" question, because as you said, it really is a tough balance to strike and a lot of what can make or break it is so in-flux due to so many everchanging cultural factors mixing with deeply-ingrained ones. But sexuality in general is such an insanely layered, human thing that affects our lives in so many ways that there's pretty much no pitch-perfect, works-every time representation template of anyone on any spot of its impossibly vast spectrum, nor should we try to make one.
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Mar 21, 2016 07:34
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I think a part of the problem also comes down to how one defines AAA games. If it's just how big the budget is then the new Tombraider games certainly qualify but suffer from an extreme disconnect between gameplay and story. It's sorta the inverse problem of Nathan Drake. Laura is portrayed as reluctant to kill and traumatized by the events but the game never encourages avoiding the enemies instead of just murdering them. If AAA is based on how high profile the game is then you also have the various survival horror games like Alien Isolation and SOMA which star everyman characters whose basic reaction to horrible events is to run or hide. If AAA is specifically about the genre of third person cover based shooting then yeah you've basically got Nathan Drake and a whole bunch of sour pusses. The positive bti though is that extremely grim Frank Miller video game characters are on the decline in terms of market draw. Most of the ones for new IP lose huge amounts of money like Watch_Dogs and the ones that do make money tend to be cheaply produced sequels using aging engines.
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Mar 21, 2016 07:37
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Hbomberguy posted:AssCreed could easily have a main character with a non-heteronormative sexuality. The games aren't very much about sexuality, so playing as a male character who's into dudes isn't a huge structure-changing issue. They havent been using direct ancestors of the protagonist since AC3, so NO to what you seem to think of that last one (jesus christ). Abstergo developed tech to dump someone else's sequenced memories into an Animus in AC4. And Assassin's Creed is the one game you probably couldn't get a gay protagonist in for the exact point you brought up; genetic memories. At least not without hamfisting a "oh poo poo, they need to have a kid at the end/postgame" ending. You could swing a bi protagonist though.
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Mar 21, 2016 07:47
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You could totally have a gay protagonist in Assassin's Creed. They just have to get encased in amber or something near the end, and then wake up in modern times and gently caress up Abstergo with whatever ridiculous ancient assassin-tech they had in their time period (the ancient egyptians had rocket launchers because whatever, historical accuracy is optional in this series. Ptolemy had an apple of eden and also an actual, literal gun). It turns out you're playing his memories because he's still around and offered up his DNA to make a video game. There, I came up with a better twist on the past/present poo poo Ubisoft ever have.
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Mar 21, 2016 08:38
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Hbomberguy posted:You could totally have a gay protagonist in Assassin's Creed. They just have to get encased in amber or something near the end, and then wake up in modern times and gently caress up Abstergo with whatever ridiculous ancient assassin-tech they had in their time period (the ancient egyptians had rocket launchers because whatever, historical accuracy is optional in this series. Ptolemy had an apple of eden and also an actual, literal gun). It turns out you're playing his memories because he's still around and offered up his DNA to make a video game. But how does it tie in with the Watch Underscore Dogs universe?
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Mar 21, 2016 08:39
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Neddy Seagoon posted:They havent been using direct ancestors of the protagonist since AC3, so NO to what you seem to think of that last one (jesus christ). Abstergo developed tech to dump someone else's sequenced memories into an Animus in AC4. And Assassin's Creed is the one game you probably couldn't get a gay protagonist in for the exact point you brought up; genetic memories. At least not without hamfisting a "oh poo poo, they need to have a kid at the end/postgame" ending. You could swing a bi protagonist though. A gay/lesbian protagonist could completely work because of the existence of the practice of marrying someone of the opposite sex and popping out a kid or two to purely to keep up appearances while being homosexual in secret. There's even a term for it: a "beard". e: The secret gay love affairs could even play into the sneaking gameplay, if they want to go that way. dijon du jour fucked around with this message at 08:43 on Mar 21, 2016 |
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Mar 21, 2016 08:40
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dijon du jour posted:A gay/lesbian protagonist could completely work because of the existence of the practice of marrying someone of the opposite sex and popping out a kid or two to purely to keep up appearances while being homosexual in secret. There's even a term for it: a "beard". If we're going to have a gay protagonist I want the explanation for their presence to be amazing. I want no-one to know how they have this dead gay guy's DNA. People are sitting around the Abstergo watercooler like, this doesn't even make sense! I want a fakeout where there's a lady he considers pretending to marry to pass in society. And then I want him to say 'no thanks' and get cryogenically frozen inside the loving pyramids and then kill those watercooler guys with his actual gun the egyptians somehow developed, and then also kill Desmond Miles and Watch_Dog Man and usher in an age of interesting protagonists.
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Mar 21, 2016 08:49
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Hbomberguy posted:That is far too benign for an Assassin. The first time Ezio fucks someone his entire city explodes. I want you to be making AAA games.
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Mar 21, 2016 09:12
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I'd be cool if they straight up gathered all material of the future stuff in AC games, EVERYTHING, then threw it in the trash. Just make it cool settings and people in history that don't need even the most mild of connections by storyline, relation, whatever anymore. Like honestly I'd still be a lot more up on the AC games in general, if the overarching plot didn't keep turning every one into "Ur assassman, them templar, go, kill" and it was more than just templars in different clothes every time, because the ~metaplot~ makes it that way.
Yardbomb fucked around with this message at 10:07 on Mar 21, 2016 |
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Mar 21, 2016 10:04
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Moartoast posted:More queer stuff I think part of what's holding back queer portrayals at the moment, is that the vast majority of films/tv/books with a queer main character are ABOUT that character being queer. Which is not in and of itself bad, but it's a little bit like if all stories about straight people were mandated to be mostly about straight romance, with a tiny scraping of plot on the side. Straight romances exist, but you're also allowed to have a romance be a side detail when you're talking about straight characters - whereas with queer characters it's usually either "I am so and so, a GAY character. This story will revolve around me being GAY" - OR, for supporting characters, the particularly common "I am so and so. I am gay. This will never be mentioned again and I will never have sex or a romance, while the straight characters around me will have countless romantic subplots. Oh and if the writer decides that my potential as a Character who is Gay has been used up on my one gay storyline, I will abruptly disappear. Bye!" That said, it's definitely changing and improving - in TV more than movies. Shows like Cuffs, Janet King, Halt and Catch Fire and House of Cards have LGB main characters who are a) allowed to express their sexuality in a way similar to that of their straight co-characters and b) the story is about their job rather than their sexuality, but their sexuality isn't ignored. I suppose you could also put OITNB in this category, and possibly The Principal (although in The Principal his sexuality is more like a SURPRISE PLOT TWIST OMG rather than just something that's there and isn't the main plot-line.) London Spy is an interesting case because if the main character were straight, the basic plot of the show would be the same, but the show's dynamic would be vastly different. The story isn't about being gay, but aspects of gay male sexuality definitely play a role in how the show plays out, especially in regards to how gay male sexuality is judged differently to straight male sexuality, as well as how it historically relates to particular professions (working in intelligence) and historical problems that gay men have had to face. The show's written by Tom Rob Smith, a crime author. Midway through watching it, I thought "hmmm, I'm not sure that a straight man would portray queer male sexuality in this way - it seems like he's coming from a place of experience" - so I wasn't terribly surprised to find out that Tom Rob Smith is queer himself (as are two of the actors.) Making a good queer or trans character is simultaneously really easy (make a good character full stop!) and really hard (if you don't know particular realities of what this character might face, they might come across as stereotypical or unrealistic or shallowly written.) However, no one LGBT character can be everything, and no one LGBT character SHOULD be everything to everyone. Basically more representation of LGBT characters of all kinds, and more of us will be able to point to characters that we can identify with. It's alarming just how insanely thin on the ground the representation is for many subsets of the LGBTQIalphabet community. How many bi male characters can you name? Trans male characters? Intersex characters? I shall leave it at that because basically you and I are just finding more ways to agree with each other 
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Mar 21, 2016 11:41
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I always thought it was weird how people go on about the difficulties of writing a gay character. All you need to do is write a regular character and just change "Save his girlfriend" to "Save his boyfriend" in his bio. That's it. Break out the beers and weekend music. Tho AAA gaming is slowly warming up to LGBT characters, what with the Division having a lesbian character who had a personality that wasn't just "I AM SUCH A BIG LESBIAN NOW LISTEN TO ME TALK ABOUT BANGING MY WIFE EVERY 2ND SENTENCE." It's sad that this is something we can consider progress, but its there. (I know New Vegas did that too, but I dunno if an Obsidian game can be considered AAA).
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Mar 21, 2016 12:37
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Archer666 posted:I always thought it was weird how people go on about the difficulties of writing a gay character. All you need to do is write a regular character and just change "Save his girlfriend" to "Save his boyfriend" in his bio. That's it. Break out the beers and weekend music. You don't even need that. 
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Mar 21, 2016 12:44
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Infamous Sphere posted:Trans male characters? The Beast from Beauty and the Beast. You see, as an older tweenager he's "cursed" to be a "beast" and starts destroying all the portraits of him and mirrors because his "transformation" (puberty) is turning him into something incongruent with his own self-image and identity but then he finds someone who accepts him as the handsome prince he really is and... Magical talking furniture left without further elucidation Linear Zoetrope fucked around with this message at 13:17 on Mar 21, 2016 |
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Mar 21, 2016 13:14
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Cyron posted:Wasn't there a movie that got nominated for a Oscar that star a transgender character that a ton of LGBT members where upset since it portray the character as a sex creep? That's The Danish Girl, which apparently turned its subject's life into a classed up forced femme story. It's also not the first time that the big industry awards have recognised the genre. The Skin I Live In, a movie as nasty and sordid as anything you'll find on literotica, has a fuckton of trophies.
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Mar 21, 2016 13:36
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AssCreed is the series where Alan Turing was a Templar and his indecency charge was a plot to stop him from making robots* *THIS IS ACTUAL ASSCREED CANON They'll also probably reveal that Harvey Milk was an Assassin martyred by Templars. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 14:07 on Mar 21, 2016 |
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Mar 21, 2016 13:43
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Assassin's Creed would be a million times better if it was just stuck to historical storytelling with some liberties taken. The Templar/Assassin and Ancient Sci Fi Ghosts thing is beyond stupid. I just want to help Karl Marx and his beard smash the state through Unions and being reasonable.
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Mar 21, 2016 13:54
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:AssCreed is the series where Alan Turing was a Templar and his indecency charge was a plot to stop him from makig robots* The closer the games get to modern times, the dumber their refusal to deal with real world politics becomes.
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Mar 21, 2016 14:01
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:AssCreed is the series where Alan Turing was a Templar and his indecency charge was a plot to stop him from makig robots* At least in the early games, though, making historical figures you think of as great people turn out to be Templars was a pretty big part of the worldbuilding. IIRC JFK and Gandhi are both Templars. That doesn't make it any less dumb, but the point early on was supposed to be that significant parts of history are straight-up Templar lies.
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Mar 21, 2016 14:03
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Early on they also had a lot more blurred lines. The whole thing wasn't black and white as far as Templates and Assassins go. Unity tried to bring that back but was overall so bland.
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Mar 21, 2016 14:06
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Mokinokaro posted:Early on they also had a lot more blurred lines. The whole thing wasn't black and white as far as Templates and Assassins go. Unity tried to bring that back but was overall so bland. I still can't get over the framing device for those games. You are basically playing a flashback that decided to stop now and then to pull you into some modern day sci-Fi conspericy bullshit that stops the real game and story dead in its tracks.
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Mar 21, 2016 14:37
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BigRed0427 posted:I still can't get over the framing device for those games. You are basically playing a flashback that decided to stop now and then to pull you into some modern day sci-Fi conspericy bullshit that stops the real game and story dead in its tracks. It worked for the first couple games when they were telegraphing an all-Desmond game like nuts (Like, the entire point of inhabiting Ezio's memories is so that Desmond can learn to be an Assassin, pretty much everyone was expecting AC3 to either be all-Desmond or majorly Desmond focused), but after that manifestly did not happen, the framing device is just onerous. I'm sorry this is like the fourth time I've derailed this thread with Assassin's Creed DStecks fucked around with this message at 14:53 on Mar 21, 2016 |
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Mar 21, 2016 14:45
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Fans posted:Assassin's Creed would be a million times better if it was just stuck to historical storytelling with some liberties taken. It's a dodge. The Templar/Assassin thing lets them avoid ever having to express an opinion on actual politics or religion, because it's all a shadow war between two forces with no real underlying philosophy beyond a vague allegiance to order at all costs vs liberty and freedom. Incidentally: There is no way Mark Twain would have been a templar, you know that's bullshit Ubisoft
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Mar 21, 2016 15:22
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The AssCreed games are about ideology. They argue that media is a form of social control perpetuated by people who think they know what's best for everyone (capitalists), and these ideas are disseminated through everything, including video games. They then, hilariously, themselves devolve into garbage that misinterprets and rewrites history in order to promote bullshit liberal capitalism. The crystal-clear central message of the games is therefore that Ubisoft itself is a propagandizing, (self-)destructive monstrosity that must be stopped at all costs. Which is probably a mistake. I assume what happened is that the creators at some point realised the early games were advocating straight-up communism and decided that might look bad, so they veered away from being 'too political' and into accidental self-parody. They were right the first time.
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Mar 21, 2016 15:53
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Archer666 posted:I always thought it was weird how people go on about the difficulties of writing a gay character. All you need to do is write a regular character and just change "Save his girlfriend" to "Save his boyfriend" in his bio. That's it. Break out the beers and weekend music. It depends a lot on the genre/setting and the level of familiarity with gayness. As established before, a lot of people aren't really cognizant of the fact that they consider, say, PDAs to be background noise when heterosexual but blaring attention-grabbing when homosexual, which means an attempt to write gay people as "regular characters" is likely to end up with a bunch of celibates. Similarly, anything intended to be a realistic modern thing is going to have to be at least passingly aware of how homosexual people are viewed and treated in daily life, not in a "Very Special Episode" way, but in a sense of the little differences. Of course, with things like fantasy or really simple stories where there's no need for details, the genderswapped SO method is probably fine.
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Mar 21, 2016 16:03
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The ridiculous liberal self-parody was there from the beginning. The Asscreed developers are pathologically afraid of including real politics in the story. Thus AssCreed 1 is a game about the Crusades without Christian or Muslim characters, and AssCreed 2 features none of complicated national and religious politics of the Renaissance. I didn't play beyond Brotherhood, but I probably didn't miss much. e: I mean, how did a game about heroic Muslim terrorists manage to not raise a single eyebrow? BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 16:14 on Mar 21, 2016 |
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Mar 21, 2016 16:07
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I went back and played all of the AssCreed games up to Rogue a few years ago. My take away is that every time they bring up a Piece of Eden the game gets stupid. Same thing for when they jump to the present so the hip 18-25 year old snarky quirky super-hackers can stick it to The Man. All the game needs to be about is conspiracies and assassins. Dumb as this sounds, I think the first game was the best in this regard. Every target had a part to play in this big New World Order, every one of them was memorable, and the game required you to figure out the best method to murder them. As much as I love AssCreed 2 and Brotherhood and Black Flag, I can't remember a third of the targets from any of those games. If I recall, they were vaguely in the protagonists' way so they got killed. Rogue had its share of problems but it at least made me feel something for the few targets it had.
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Mar 21, 2016 16:07
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