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The Bland.
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Mar 22, 2016 02:43
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zoux posted:Maybe they needed a shitload of dirt? Seriously?
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Mar 22, 2016 02:52
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Maybe The Hand is secretly anti-union and likes going around digging holes and building poo poo as non union construction workers.
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Mar 22, 2016 02:53
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HIJK posted:Seriously? Yeah I can't believe the hole is a deal breaker for this many people. Like it was a complete non issue to me.
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Mar 22, 2016 02:53
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zoux posted:Yeah I can't believe the hole is a deal breaker for this many people. Like it was a complete non issue to me. That'll teach me. What I meant was, it's a little silly to be going "hey don't get hung up on these tiny details because they don't matter." I don't necessarily mind the hole to nowhere but it irritated me as well that they never explained it or even alluded to it. It was sloppy to introduce such a foreboding image and then do nothing with it later. I don't think it's the hole itself that people are irritated with. I think the hole is just part of the build up of all the tiny details that the writers put in but then never did anything with wrt The Hand and The Chaste. It most likely is set up for Iron Fist and Defenders but it's still sloppy to not give any sort of resolution in Daredevil proper. No wonder people feel frustrated.
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Mar 22, 2016 03:00
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I think it's blindingly obvious that the hole is going to show up again in either Iron Fist or The Defenders. Every season of Daredevil, Jessica Jones, Luke Cage, and Iron Fist is a part of on serialized effort leading up to The Defenders, so people should really expect that things are going to get set up for later use.
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Mar 22, 2016 03:02
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I cant wait to see the hole again.
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Mar 22, 2016 03:04
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Proposition Joe posted:I think it's blindingly obvious that the hole is going to show up again in either Iron Fist or The Defenders. Every season of Daredevil, Jessica Jones, Luke Cage, and Iron Fist is a part of on serialized effort leading up to The Defenders, so people should really expect that things are going to get set up for later use. People bitched about the equivalent stuff in Iron Man 2, and it wasn't without merit.
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Mar 22, 2016 03:06
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I can only imagine some of you watching Empire Strikes Back for the first time... "What the gently caress? There's no resolution to the Luke/Vader conflict! They just drop a bombshell like that and nothing gets resolved???" "Oh, so I guess Han's out of the picture forever? We're never going to figure out what's with this Jabba dude they namedropped???"
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Mar 22, 2016 03:09
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I mean they didn't do nothing with the Hand, they did an Elektra-is-the-chosen-one plot, it went for four episodes, she died and so that part of it was resolved.
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Mar 22, 2016 03:10
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I just think it's a little absurd to go "They never explained this thing! It never resolved" about things that they are really bloody obviously going to explain and resolve in a later season. It would be a problem if nothing else happened in the meantime, but a whole lot happened. The storyline with the Hand explored Matt and Elektra's characters in a way that was very significant to the series. The fact that it "cut into" and "interrupted" the Punisher storyline was -- and I already know that people are gonna get pissy about me saying this -- kind of the point. The war between ancient rival clans getting in the way of Matt's normal, moral, lawful life was the whole point. Fantastical superhero antics drawing Matt away from what he should be doing was exactly what Stick wanted and sent Elektra to Matt for in the first place and directly resulted in the fracturing of Nelson and Murdock. This was the plot.
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Mar 22, 2016 03:16
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BrianWilly posted:I just think it's a little absurd to go "They never explained this thing! It never resolved" about things that they are really bloody obviously going to explain and resolve in a later season. That depends on how invested you are in all sides of the plot. If the Hand story line isn't engaging people then that's a problem, and considering how widespread the sentiment is, I don't think it's a problem with the audience. You can't make people care about something that they don't connect with and you can't rationalize the negative responses away with "Well you're supposed to be feel impatient, bored, and disinterested with this Hand plot because they put it in there to make you feel that way!" That's reductive.
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Mar 22, 2016 03:22
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That just gets into completely subjective reactions, which is why I suggested earlier that how invested you are in the plot has a lot to do with how willing you are to accept the intersection of fantastical and mundane genres. Like, there's people who are typing the words "I get so bored when the ninjas show up" and I can't understand that. I don't understand the rationale for that. I get excited when the ninjas show up. It meant the plot was moving and that something exciting was about to happen. And all that's even before considering all the "It didn't go anywhere" complaints which just seem flat-out wrong to me.
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Mar 22, 2016 03:52
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2x10-2x11 i love how absolutely beaten up Frank looks. His face is a loving mess.
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Mar 22, 2016 03:53
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The gore this season was crazy, I had to look away a few times. Also, was e3 the first official MCU gently caress utterance?
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Mar 22, 2016 03:54
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I think they walked a fine line of making The Punisher a human being but being exceptionally well trained and strong willed. Nothing to over the top.zoux posted:The gore this season was crazy, I had to look away a few times. I don't remember anyone saying gently caress in episode 3. They say poo poo a lot though.
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Mar 22, 2016 03:56
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I am completely fine with the intersection of the fantastic with the mundane. I am considerably less fine with the intersection of the compelling with the stupid, vague, and boring. They could have easily made The Hand awesome and cool and threatening. They just, you know, failed. That happens sometimes.
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Mar 22, 2016 03:59
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Hollismason posted:I think they walked a fine line of making The Punisher a human being but being exceptionally well trained and strong willed. Nothing to over the top. 
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Mar 22, 2016 04:06
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I agree with the general consensus, if they had just omitted the hole in the plot (hehehe) and made this a tight 6-7 episode arc surrounding Frank and Matt, in and out of the courtroom, and tightened up the ending with the Blacksmith's guys on the boat, then it could have been flawless. I wanted more of Fisk and Punisher, more of Fisk and Matt, more of Matt and Castle, more of Daredevil and Punisher, all of those scenes were electric. Have some generic excuse for why Matt keeps ditching the case rather than the Hand and all the elements would work fine. As it was the Elektra bits were entertaining and were still good but were holding back the season from being truly exceptional.
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Mar 22, 2016 04:13
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"Look, I'm totally cool with the unkillable ex-Marine who murders dozens of criminals without harming an innocent and can take on ten vicious criminals hand-to-hand without serious injury, but NINJAS? I'm sorry, I just can't put up with your unbelievable comic book bullshit..."
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Mar 22, 2016 04:13
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Happy Noodle Boy posted:2x10-2x11 i love how absolutely beaten up Frank looks. His face is a loving mess. Hollismason posted:I think they walked a fine line of making The Punisher a human being but being exceptionally well trained and strong willed. Nothing to over the top. AtraMorS fucked around with this message at 04:21 on Mar 22, 2016 |
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Mar 22, 2016 04:19
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Nipponophile posted:"Look, I'm totally cool with the unkillable ex-Marine who murders dozens of criminals without harming an innocent and can take on ten vicious criminals hand-to-hand without serious injury, but NINJAS? I'm sorry, I just can't put up with your unbelievable comic book bullshit..." I don't think anyone's saying that, no one is expecting realism from a comic book TV series. The complaint is that the Hand are weakly developed and uninspiring as enemies, especially compared to how awesome Punisher and Kingpin are. This season spends several episodes on stealing the Roxxon secret ledger and tracking down the big hole, building up to the big reveal from Stick and Elektra that we're fighting an ancient war against generic ninja mooks. Yawn.
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Mar 22, 2016 04:24
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BrianWilly posted:That just gets into completely subjective reactions, which is why I suggested earlier that how invested you are in the plot has a lot to do with how willing you are to accept the intersection of fantastical and mundane genres. Like, there's people who are typing the words "I get so bored when the ninjas show up" and I can't understand that. I don't understand the rationale for that. I get excited when the ninjas show up. It meant the plot was moving and that something exciting was about to happen. And all that's even before considering all the "It didn't go anywhere" complaints which just seem flat-out wrong to me. I think that summarizes pretty well summarizes why you might enjoy a scene that I find mind numbingly boring. Good action for me isn't about watching a hero mechanically hack his way through an endless wave of faceless mooks. It's about ideas and characters and conflict and feeling emotionally invested in the outcome. Sure the choreography is nice, but it needs to be about something more than just a dude punching a bunch of ninjas. Watching the wills of Kingpin and Matt clash only to briefly flare up into sudden drastic violence is riveting. Watching Frank find himself in a brutal adrenaline-fueled kill or be killed scene in prison is fantastic because it gives us a brief glance into the very essence of what the Punisher is and what he does. Frank and Matt fighting is less about the blows they deal to one another than it is the ideas that they desperately cling to about how to stop evil in a broken world and how they try to convince each other that their way is the correct one. Or you can have a bunch of ninjas. They aren't characters, they don't represent anything, they aren't any real threat to our hero, they don't especially challenge his worldview. They're just mobile punching bags. It's like the fights in the Star Wars prequels really. Pretty, but with no depth.
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Mar 22, 2016 04:24
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AtraMorS posted:Whoever did Frank's makeup for the series really did a good job. I liked how he just got more and more battered to the point that his face was basically just a skull-shaped contusion. No it's not. In fact for Garth Ennis origin he may or may not be watched over by a spirit of Death. It's a good change though to his character even if it is " He's bad rear end because he has brain trauma" Strangely , that is actually something that can happen with brain injuries. Although it isn't exactly like that Here is a good explanation http://www.braininjury-explanation.com/consequences/invisible-consequences/overstimulation-flooding http://secondchancetolive.org/2015/07/19/limbic-system-fight-or-flight-response-and-brain-injury-recovery/ It basically has to do with the limbic system. It can in fact result in "uncontrollable rage". It doesn't make you super human or something in fact it's loving awful. I have actually in my EMS work encountered people with these types of brain injuries, they are very difficult to work with because they basically blow up / become emotional/ have a panic attack easily. Hollismason fucked around with this message at 04:31 on Mar 22, 2016 |
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Mar 22, 2016 04:26
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Hollismason posted:No it's not. In fact for Garth Ennis origin he may or may not be watched over by a spirit of Death.
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Mar 22, 2016 04:30
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AtraMorS posted:Welp, I think you convinced me not to read those. Bizarre TBI is way better. It's only in one comic book called Born. It's a good book, but basically it really subverts the Punisher. His origin is now, he noticed the ambush but let it happen on a subconscious level because he wanted to have a war that was never ending. When he came home he actually wasn't having a good home life he was bored and missed the war. He had bad relationships with his wife and his kids. He was severely hosed up. This may have changed but I don't think it did for the new Marvel.
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Mar 22, 2016 04:32
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Pellisworth posted:I don't think anyone's saying that, no one is expecting realism from a comic book TV series. The complaint is that the Hand are weakly developed and uninspiring as enemies, especially compared to how awesome Punisher and Kingpin are. This season spends several episodes on stealing the Roxxon secret ledger and tracking down the big hole, building up to the big reveal from Stick and Elektra that we're fighting an ancient war against generic ninja mooks. Yawn. Is it just me or is the huge ethical debate about killing that ran through season 1 and then the first quarter of season 2 rendered hilarious when Daredevil is trucking with ninjas that murder the gently caress out of everyone, even each other, non-stop 24/7? He really feels like the annoying kid that tags along and keeps threatening to call mom. Hell by the end, he seems entirely OK with people murdering whoever they want as long as he doesn't land any killing blows. That said Punisher felt spot on, Elektra felt kind of like a maniacal serial killer after murdering Stick's people for kicks.
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Mar 22, 2016 04:34
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Hollismason posted:It's only in one comic book called Born. It's a good book, but basically it really subverts the Punisher. I refuse to buy that part as supernatural. Everything Ennis did with the character to that point was spot on; I'd like to take it as him just having a mental break from the murder fest he went on. The only bad part of the Punisher scenes was the dread of going "Oh gently caress, Daredevil's coming to stop the Punisher from killing some goon and gently caress up everything, again! Please stay out of the good Punisher story, Daredevil!" ED: Reading reviews now and Forbes "A Sub-Par 'Daredevil' Season Two Yields A Great 'Punisher' Season One" is absolutely right. Nipponophile posted:I can only imagine some of you watching Empire Strikes Back for the first time... Do you really think they're going to invest time next season explaining poo poo like the giant holes in any satisfying way? I sure don't. The fact is if you're going to split the season like that you need a midpoint to build beats towards. Here it felt disjointed which is a shame again because season 1 was very tightly plotted. It makes me worry about Jessica Jones, too; the strength of the show was working towards a single clear goal and making every episode advance the clock to the finale. This felt like 3 seasons of a show kinda thrown in a blender. Finally, the thing everyone praised Daredevil over - even non-comic fans - was how it was an interesting, grounded drama first and had fantastic elements to elevate it. This season was a cartoon, or at least the ninja stuff was; I half expected them to be yelling "COOOOOBRA." I had zero issue recommending Daredevil to non-comic fans because the combination of fights with weight & heft (something missing from almost every fight involving Daredevil but still present in fights involving Punisher without Daredevil), but this season would be a harder sell. Not that it still doesn't have great parts- the Fisk/Punisher stuff stole the show. Long story short it seems like a somewhat poor decision. The new show runner you can tell very much wants to do a good loyal adaption of the material, he's just picking the wrong material for the show's tone largely; it felt very comic loyal. Too much in fact. You'd have to have brain damage to not see the final Elektra stabbing and coming back coming, and I don't even READ the comic. Zero dramatic impact as a result. Their whole touching speech was literally one more job before retirement. It's a real odd place to be. They did a ton of things right, and a ton of things wrong, this season. They did so much right I enjoyed the entire season as much as I'm bitching. I guess it's kind of like when you watch a 4.0 student get Cs for a quarter; some people would LOVE to have Cs, but for a student with such a bright potential, it turns into a shame instead. Blazing Ownager fucked around with this message at 04:48 on Mar 22, 2016 |
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Mar 22, 2016 04:37
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Tom Tucker posted:I agree with the general consensus, if they had just omitted the hole in the plot (hehehe) and made this a tight 6-7 episode arc surrounding Frank and Matt, in and out of the courtroom, and tightened up the ending with the Blacksmith's guys on the boat, then it could have been flawless. I wanted more of Fisk and Punisher, more of Fisk and Matt, more of Matt and Castle, more of Daredevil and Punisher, all of those scenes were electric. Have some generic excuse for why Matt keeps ditching the case rather than the Hand and all the elements would work fine. A strictly Punisher/DD arc would have been amazing in it's own rights, but I think the rest of the plot is more of a setup for the MCU. With the Elektra story line we see DD getting "buffed", and there is a bit more fleshing out of the mystical side of the universe, paving the way for Dr. Strange, and madame Gao. I would not be surprised to see DD in the next Captain America movie.
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Mar 22, 2016 04:44
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Captain Snaps posted:A strictly Punisher/DD arc would have been amazing in it's own rights, but I think the rest of the plot is more of a setup for the MCU. With the Elektra story line we see DD getting "buffed", and there is a bit more fleshing out of the mystical side of the universe, paving the way for Dr. Strange, and madame Gao. I would not be surprised to see DD in the next Captain America movie. I have a sneaking feeling both Netflix shows will get a brief cameo in Civil War. I have a feeling they will never, ever acknowledge Agents of Shield again and I'm just glad they're keeping it going. It's a fun show but Marvel totally treats it like the black sheep.
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Mar 22, 2016 04:49
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Blazing Ownager posted:The only bad part of the Punisher scenes was the dread of going "Oh gently caress, Daredevil's coming to stop the Punisher from killing some goon and gently caress up everything, again! Please stay out of the good Punisher story, Daredevil!" Nipponophile posted:I think there are people in this thread who honestly think that when Punisher's not on screen, the other characters should be asking "Where's Punisher?"
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Mar 22, 2016 05:04
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I never realized how many people were punisher fans. Like not in the series but just in general. I was never a huge fan but I enjoyed his depiction this season.
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Mar 22, 2016 05:06
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All the Hand stuff was awesome. Matt fighting ninjas is extremely my poo poo.
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Mar 22, 2016 05:08
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Gaunab posted:I never realized how many people were punisher fans. Like not in the series but just in general. I was never a huge fan but I enjoyed his depiction this season. Like Venom, he's someone who's image and concept is instantly cool to people who were teenagers in the 90s, so a good depiction of him is bound to get such "casual" fans pumped. His 2004 MAX run also brought in a lot of new fans who might generally not give a poo poo about the Marvel universe.
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Mar 22, 2016 05:08
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Blazing Ownager posted:I have a sneaking feeling both Netflix shows will get a brief cameo in Civil War. I'm sure they'll be in Infinity War but I doubt anything will happen in Civil War. Wasn't DD S2 and JJ filming at the same time Civil War was?
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Mar 22, 2016 05:08
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Yeah I don't think ninjas are the problem. I think the issue is that the Punisher stuff was much more compelling but mostly in those first four episodes. Then you get stuff that wasn't as compelling, then more engaging stuff when Fisk shows up, and then it sorta wet noodles from there to the end. Elektra and Stick were fine, but The Hand and Nobu just didn't seem as compelling or well-drawn as other antagonists like Fisk and, well, Frank. I think maybe they made a mistake bringing Nobu back and instead should've had a more deeply-drawn antagonist to represent The Hand. I read an interview with the two showrunners and they said they're deeply in love with the 3 act structure, but I don't think they implemented it well here. It really feels like one disconnected first act, and then 2 subsequent ones that don't do a good job of integrating the first. They could've done a more slow build on Elektra/Punisher/The Hand from the beginning of the first act that carries through, I mean as it is, the Frank part of it has almost no connection to the Elektra/The Hand part of it, and the ending really should've been this epic confrontation or series of confrontations that tied all of those elements together. We know the the showrunners found out they could use Punisher later in the process, so I think Elektra/The Hand was their idea for the season from the start, but then they couldn't really figure out how to integrate the Punisher into it. Exacerbating all of this is that Jon Bernthal absolutely loving killed it as Frank, and it mostly comes first, which overshadows everything else quality-wise. Longbaugh01 fucked around with this message at 05:20 on Mar 22, 2016 |
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Mar 22, 2016 05:09
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I was big fan of the early Punisher Comics, but honestly Ennis's work was so outstanding that it really just completely changed the character. Now there have been some really good runs with the character. If you want a hilarious approach to the Punisher read Punisher 2099. It's amazing.
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Mar 22, 2016 05:26
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I liked the hand because a roving gang of ninjas rules. I said it before the whole reason I've been enjoying this show is because they aren't afraid to do the goofy poo poo in the comic, but the goofy poo poo is still done with great actors. It treats is subject matter with respect bit it never feels like they think this is some next level story telling or something.
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Mar 22, 2016 05:26
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The_Rob posted:I liked the hand because a roving gang of ninjas rules. I said it before the whole reason I've been enjoying this show is because they aren't afraid to do the goofy poo poo in the comic, but the goofy poo poo is still done with great actors. It treats is subject matter with respect bit it never feels like they think this is some next level story telling or something. This. This season takes the Daredevil that inspired the Ninja Turtles and gave it to us in live action in a way the current Ninja Turtles movies are not attempting. Give the Punisher a hockey stick and replace Foggy with a stack of pizzas and you are pretty much there.
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Mar 22, 2016 05:55
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Neon Knight posted:Give the Punisher a hockey stick. Wait. I know all about TMNT being a take-off on Daredevil, but is Casey Jones a take-off on The Punisher?! Because if so, my mind is truly, and completely, blown.
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Mar 22, 2016 06:52
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