|
Okay, need to stop reading this because I'm getting disappointed with how small Tilea/Estalia are on the campaign map, and that I won't be able to hire units like Voland's Venators' regiment of drunken knights. They're infamous for showing up caked in mud and blood with bad hangovers, crashing the Brettonian royal joust and unhorsing the King's champion in combat. 
Triskelli fucked around with this message at 18:17 on Mar 22, 2016 |
#
?
Mar 22, 2016 17:07
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 7, 2024 08:08 |
|
|
Charlz Guybon posted:Why wouldn't the Empire raise pike regiments of their own if they needed them? Presumably they prefer halberds to pikes for a reason. I imagine blocks of halberdiers are more tactically flexible and mobile than blocks of pikemen, and they're better able to fight in melee if a mob of orks smashes into and disrupts the organization of the block. It's never said explicitly anywhere, but yeah, pike squares probably work better when your enemy is just plain old humans and not steroid-freak sentient mushrooms, demonic heavy metal vikings, the goddamn undead, and other sundry things that wouldn't flinch at a wall of pointy sticks due to a myriad of reasons.
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2016 17:20
|
|
|
Cardiac posted:The whole point of playing The Empire should be to see whether you can run over Nagash (again) with a Steam Tank. Nagash doesn't really have a faction. He's his own thing. He's also dead 90% of the time except as a looming narrative threat. Necromancers likewise do not have a specific faction. Tomb Kings have Liche Priests, Vampire Counts have Necromancers.
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2016 17:39
|
|
|
A quick look at the master necromancer today.
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2016 17:42
|
|
|
Charlz Guybon posted:Presumably they prefer halberds to pikes for a reason. I imagine blocks of halberdiers are more tactically flexible and mobile than blocks of pikemen, and they're better able to fight in melee if a mob of orks smashes into and disrupts the organization of the block. Halberds were more used in the 15th century because it's easier to move a bunch of guys with 2 meter long weapons in formation than it is than it is when they are carrying 5m weapons. Pikes shone when paired with guys with rifles, because the enemy could either stand there and take it or charge straight into pikes and be skewered, but that's more of an Spanish Tercio thing than the Holy Roman Empire. Of course the true reason they use halberds in the game is that Big Axes are more metal than Big Sticks.
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2016 17:42
|
|
|
Whilst the model is fantastic, I wish these unit videos actually showed them doing something in a battle or just walking around the campaign map.
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2016 17:46
|
|
|
Fat Samurai posted:Of course the true reason they use halberds in the game is that Big Axes are more metal than Big Sticks. There's that, but there's also that in the tabletop game it's much easier to get a block of 20-40 tiny plastic men to rank up properly when they each have a chunky halberd the height of one dude rather than a pike twice their height.
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2016 17:48
|
|
|
toasterwarrior posted:It's never said explicitly anywhere, but yeah, pike squares probably work better when your enemy is just plain old humans and not steroid-freak sentient mushrooms, demonic heavy metal vikings, the goddamn undead, and other sundry things that wouldn't flinch at a wall of pointy sticks due to a myriad of reasons. Don't forget the dinosaurs riding other dinosaurs.  A pointy stick is much less intimating when you can crash through it and not give a gently caress. Mind you, I'm pretty sure SOME Empire factions can field pikes. Nuln is big on pike blocks, probably because they spend more time fighting other bits of the empire instead of Orks or Chaos.
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2016 20:44
|
|
|
These are the best models CW has made by a huuuuuuge margin
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2016 20:57
|
|
|
Rygar201 posted:I kind of like that towards the end of Fantasy Orcs weren't even explicitly fungus. They were just there. Like any sufficiently lovely area could spawn Orcs when it isn't being observed. Orcy action at a distance, if you will. Well that's the thing, the biology of Fantasy Greenskins was never discussed in the army books. All of the fungus stuff came from 40K, and it was kind of assumed that the same held for Fantasy. While the 40K books went into some detail about the Ork life cycle and how they propagated, in Fantasy it was a case of "Greenskins simply exist".
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2016 20:59
|
|
|
MadJackMcJack posted:Well that's the thing, the biology of Fantasy Greenskins was never discussed in the army books. All of the fungus stuff came from 40K, and it was kind of assumed that the same held for Fantasy. While the 40K books went into some detail about the Ork life cycle and how they propagated, in Fantasy it was a case of "Greenskins simply exist". This makes sense though, as backward as the Imperium is, they do have a decent grasp on science and technology. What are people in fantasy going to do? At best they would be able to recognize "if we leave a forest with a bunch of dead Orcs in it, a few years later a bunch of alive Orcs come out and attack us again".
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2016 21:09
|
|
|
Fat Samurai posted:Halberds were more used in the 15th century because it's easier to move a bunch of guys with 2 meter long weapons in formation than it is than it is when they are carrying 5m weapons. Pikes shone when paired with guys with rifles, because the enemy could either stand there and take it or charge straight into pikes and be skewered, but that's more of an Spanish Tercio thing than the Holy Roman Empire. Umm. The 30 years war was fought with pike and shot, and that's kind of the definitive HRE war. And honestly the last thing I'd want against huge beasts is less reach. I'd imagine pikes with a cross bar like boar spears would be much more effective. Hell you probably couldn't even hide your arquebuses in a block of halberds.
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2016 21:10
|
|
|
They use halberds entirely because halberds are rad as hell.
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2016 21:11
|
|
|
Night10194 posted:They use halberds entirely because halberds are rad as hell. This. It kills me when people over analyze something that is probably just a stylistic choice. Like I remember people in this very forum unironically going over and over why Dragon Age was called Dragon Age when there are so few dragons in it. There were a bunch of silly theories and lots words about how the in-setting society records history or some poo poo when the obvious answer is just "because Dragon Age sounds cool".
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2016 21:17
|
|
|
Dre2Dee2 posted:These are the best models CW has made by a huuuuuuge margin Night10194 posted:They use halberds entirely because halberds are rad as hell. Fantasy is way more fun visually since poo poo isn't bound by the laws of physics or practicality. I hope the gameplay is the same way. Also, I've kinda stopped watching the preview stuff since I know I'm going to buy the game whenever goons put their stamp of not-horribly-broken approval on it.
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2016 21:19
|
|
|
Chomp8645 posted:This. It kills me when people over analyze something that is probably just a stylistic choice. I think it's actually pretty simple, they had a calendar in game and named ages after animals, like the Chinese calendar. The game takes place in is the 'age of the Dragon'. Sure, they probably picked Dragon because that's cool, instead of 'Lamb Age', but it's not something esoteric.
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2016 21:23
|
|
|
Skandranon posted:I think it's actually pretty simple, they had a calendar in game and named ages after animals, like the Chinese calendar. The game takes place in is the 'age of the Dragon'. Sure, they probably picked Dragon because that's cool, instead of 'Lamb Age', but it's not something esoteric. That's literally all it was yeah. Every x years the Dragon Age Pope names the new epoch based on some kind of portents. The game just happens to take place in the Dragon Age.
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2016 21:28
|
|
|
Skandranon posted:I think it's actually pretty simple, they had a calendar in game and named ages after animals, like the Chinese calendar. The game takes place in is the 'age of the Dragon'. If you earnestly believe that they wholly based the name on their in-universe calender instead of deciding "Dragon Age is a cool name" and then making up a justification then just lol because I don't know what to tell you.
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2016 21:32
|
|
|
Skandranon posted:This makes sense though, as backward as the Imperium is, they do have a decent grasp on science and technology. What are people in fantasy going to do? At best they would be able to recognize "if we leave a forest with a bunch of dead Orcs in it, a few years later a bunch of alive Orcs come out and attack us again". Friendly reminder that we as a species (yes, in real life) actually thought that if you left meat out overnight, maggots would just spontaneously appear out of the aether on the meat. Took a surprisingly long time to realize that flies were getting in there and planting eggs. Yeah, the Empire of WFB would never figure that poo poo out.
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2016 21:32
|
|
|
Chomp8645 posted:If you earnestly believe that they wholly based the name on their in-universe calender instead of deciding "Dragon Age is a cool name" and then making up a justification then just lol because I don't know what to tell you. I like how you chopped out the part of the post that addresses the thing you just said. 
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2016 21:35
|
|
|
Zaphod42 posted:Friendly reminder that we as a species (yes, in real life) actually thought that if you left meat out overnight, maggots would just spontaneously appear out of the aether on the meat. Yeah we all learned about Spontaneous Generation in middle school too.
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2016 21:36
|
|
|
Chomp8645 posted:If you earnestly believe that they wholly based the name on their in-universe calender instead of deciding "Dragon Age is a cool name" and then making up a justification then just lol because I don't know what to tell you. You make it sound like they picked the name first and worked backwards from there. If you believe that then just lol because I don't know what to tell you.
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2016 21:38
|
|
|
Captain Oblivious posted:I like how you chopped out the part of the post that addresses the thing you just said. He edited that in after I quoted.
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2016 21:39
|
|
|
Rygar201 posted:Yeah we all learned about Spontaneous Generation in middle school too. In some places in America, we still are! 
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2016 21:40
|
|
|
Rygar201 posted:Yeah we all learned about Spontaneous Generation in middle school too. Oh man I'm soooo sorry I didn't use the specific term, I'm sorry if that triggered you  It proves the point he was making, we didn't figure that poo poo out until the 19th century. If we were fighting chaos and greenskins we'd never have advanced enough to figure out proper biology.
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2016 21:43
|
|
|
dd209 posted:Well, I for one miss those sketches of orc women (didn't they have a special term?). I'm pretty sure there was a goblin woman who falls in love with one of the PCs in the Empire in Flames adventure. the only canon GW setting that I will always believe in is the blood bowl setting. Orc cheerleaders!
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2016 21:49
|
|
|
Washout posted:the only canon GW setting that I will always believe in is the blood bowl setting. Orc cheerleaders! I was so bummed that all the cheerleaders in the PC bloodborne are human models. It'd be a lot of work for very little gain, but I wanted to see some orc cheerleaders!
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2016 21:54
|
|
|
Zaphod42 posted:I was so bummed that all the cheerleaders in the PC bloodborne are human models. It'd be a lot of work for very little gain, but I wanted to see some orc cheerleaders! Eww, why?
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2016 22:03
|
|
|
Zaphod42 posted:Friendly reminder that we as a species (yes, in real life) actually thought that if you left meat out overnight, maggots would just spontaneously appear out of the aether on the meat. People in the know understand it and control that knowledge carefully either for personal gain or to keep themselves safe from an angry pitchfork wielding mob. This is the case in both warhammer settings
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2016 22:06
|
|
|
Zaphod42 posted:Oh man I'm soooo sorry I didn't use the specific term, I'm sorry if that triggered you He was making a joke about lovely sex ed classes you goober.
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2016 22:08
|
|
|
S.J. posted:People in the know understand it and control that knowledge carefully either for personal gain or to keep themselves safe from an angry pitchfork wielding mob. That really only applies to the Skaven. It's not like they know how to cleanse land of Orc spores because they understand it. They have no idea how Orc physiology works, and how could they?
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2016 22:39
|
|
|
Skandranon posted:That really only applies to the Skaven. It's not like they know how to cleanse land of Orc spores because they understand it. They have no idea how Orc physiology works, and how could they? You're already too concerned with the details for warhammer, sorry
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2016 23:19
|
|
|
S.J. posted:You're already too concerned with the details for warhammer, sorry No, you're not concerned enough! 
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2016 23:21
|
|
|
We have spontaneously turned into TWC, but with less serbian nationalists.
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2016 23:26
|
|
|
Angry Lobster posted:We have spontaneously turned into TWC, but with less serbian nationalists. gently caress you too. Washout posted:the only canon GW setting that I will always believe in is the blood bowl setting. Orc cheerleaders! Zombie cheerleaders 4unlife, yo. 
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2016 23:30
|
|
|
Fat Samurai posted:Halberds were more used in the 15th century because it's easier to move a bunch of guys with 2 meter long weapons in formation than it is than it is when they are carrying 5m weapons. Pikes shone when paired with guys with rifles, because the enemy could either stand there and take it or charge straight into pikes and be skewered, but that's more of an Spanish Tercio thing than the Holy Roman Empire. I know that, that's what I meant when I said a block of halberds is more mobile and tactically flexible. As for the rest, pike and shot formations used matchlock* muskets, not rifles. So guns with a range of 80 meters that could be fired twice a minute. Pikes are great at holding off cavalry charges and pinning other pike blocks in place because it's really difficult for even a disciplined unit to physically force their way through a disciplined block of pike men. That's not even counting the morale factor, getting men to willingly charge a mass of pointy metal like that takes a lot of training. Orks, beastmen, ogres and chaos spawn have none of those problems. They will charge without hesitation and they are physically capable of breaking through the pikes to reach the men of the formation. Sure they'll lose tons of "men" doing so, but once the enemy formation is broken and their in close up melee with pikemen, those humans are hosed. A man just can't fight an ork with a pike in a disorganized scrum, a pike is just too long and unwieldy. A halberd on the other hand is three weapons in one that can be used in a one on one fight against something bigger than you. * Wheel lock muskets would be preferable. They work in the rain, look clockpunk and baller as gently caress (the most important requirement), and since it's a fantasy setting the real world obstacles to mass production of cost and complexity don't mean poo poo. You could also theoretically manufacture paper cartridges for them, something that you can't do for matchlocks because of the open flame issue and wasn't done until flintlocks were mass produced. It greatly eases logistics and makes reloading much easier and precise. You could likely get a fire rate of three rounds a minute with that.
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2016 01:48
|
|
|
Angry Lobster posted:We have spontaneously turned into TWC, but with less serbian nationalists. But more Sylvanian nationalists 
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2016 02:34
|
|
|
Look: I am all for a deep discussion on the tactical capabilities of pike and shot armies. I read Machiavelli's Art of War for christ's sake. However, putting it in the context of warhammer is... I can't even describe it... It's like when I hear scream-metal and I have uncontrollable giggle/laughing fits. Except it's not funny.
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2016 02:35
|
|
|
What the hell is "scream metal"
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2016 02:46
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 7, 2024 08:08 |
|
|
Yeah this is the grogiest of grognard discussions, and I would rather circumvent it by saying pikes are awesome, muskets are awesome, and halberds are awesome. Hopefully one day we can take hire awesome mercenary pikemen in our empire armies, but until then we have awesome state halberdiers. We will never have to worry about how effective pikes v. halberds would actually be against something like a dragon ogre because this is a video game based on a tabletop game and gives no shits about reality on a fundamental basis. E: Alternatively, talking about how & why halberds were used, and how & why pikes were used is cool and interesting! But when people start talking superiority of one over the other my eyes roll back and it's just groan-worthy. Triskelli fucked around with this message at 03:15 on Mar 23, 2016 |
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2016 03:04
|
|