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Lyesh posted:Usual reminder that the US has drone-striked more civilians in the last year than terrorists who follow Islam have murdered people in the West. Not enough drone strikes, then.
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Mar 23, 2016 00:41
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Majorian posted:I mean, her insight has been so helpful in the GWOT so far... Members of the Saudi Royal family funding terrorism with what is effectively government revenue
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Mar 23, 2016 00:44
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Ddraig posted:I'd kind of like to have a comprehensive list of religious ideologies that have been successfully eradicated via the sword. History is full of religions that have either been killed by or fallen out of favor after subjugation and conquest, but it's really easy for you to say none of them count because they didn't go away through the literal murder of all their adherents and as long as one candle remains lit for the Pagan horse god the English throne can never claim victory.
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Mar 23, 2016 00:46
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Cake Smashing Boob posted:They're not mutually exclusive. Some of the faults may well be related to leniency re: Salafis and the like, besides. But the overwhelming majority of recruits don't come from true advocates of permanent holy war. Tackling social problems such as those is the biggest and most effective strike against radicalization and terrorist recruitment you can do. The Salafists and Wahhabists wouldnt have a place to latch on if there was no place to stick.
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Mar 23, 2016 00:52
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It does seem that people with a sense of self-worth and pride in their community don't tend to want to kill themselves and others in a spectacular fashion. This is quite hard to accomplish, though, but we do have a loving ton of bombs just sitting gathering dust.
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Mar 23, 2016 01:02
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rscott posted:Members of the Saudi Royal family funding terrorism with what is effectively government revenue Right, I figured that's what he meant, but I wanted to clarify. If that's what Ddraig means about people not wanting to end terrorism, I agree, but that doesn't mean we don't have leverage over the Gulf States and their financial networks. The U.S. and its allies have already had some success in draining ISIS' financial support, so, you know. We just gotta keep trying. 
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Mar 23, 2016 01:48
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Majorian posted:I expect it wasn't just random kicking in doors of every Muslim household in the area, though. They probably used some intelligence to follow the trail. The house with the bomb making material and ISIS was located from a tip. The taxi driver who dropped the bombers off at the airport picked them up there. So no, it wasn't from randomly kicking in doors.
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Mar 23, 2016 02:05
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Spangly A posted:"We need to solve the problem with more force against minorities". Is there any level of violence against western societies for being non-Islamic (or for not integrating large immigrant communities quickly enough and flawlessly enough, as if suicidal terrorist violence is a natural and understandable response to that) that will shift the onus to immigrant cultures rather than the native culture and government? What I'm asking is, if there were literally suicide bombings every day across Europe, would posters in threads like these still feel compelled to criticize the (supposedly) inherent racism of secular European society every single time the violence occurs? This obsessive need for anti-racist virtue signalling is hollowing out the credibility of the left on the issue of global salafism. Maybe this or that local condition is a more fertile environment for violent and reactionary ideologies to grow. A human body with a compromised immune system can be laid low by just about any infection, in theory. That doesn't mean that all pathogens are equally threatening. None are good but some are much, much worse than others. There are other bad ideologies, but there is no ideology as bad as conservative Islam, and thus it behooves Europe to put a particular focus on addressing the spread of that ideology. Doing so is not racist. Lyesh posted:Usual reminder that the US has drone-striked more civilians in the last year than terrorists who follow Islam have murdered people in the West. I'm pretty sure this isn't incontrovertibly true, and even if it is, in sheer numbers the drone strikes are a head by a hair, and not a mile: This article gives numbers as low as 138 civilian deaths since 2011, which is definitely fewer than the number of westerners killed by Muslims in the past year. Rigged Death Trap posted:But the overwhelming majority of recruits don't come from true advocates of permanent holy war. This is a meaningless statement; it is a set of ever-moving goal posts in the sense that no matter how much better the living conditions are in European "ghettoes" compared to the middle eastern cities of origin, no matter how much progress is made, if a hypothetical state of perfect justice doesn't exist, then European governments are more guilty of terrorist acts targeting them than the populations and cultures which spawn terrorists. Basically what I like to ask in these threads is: What would it take to get the apologists posting here to acknowledge and agree that Islam (or "a group of popular interpretations of Islam" if you prefer) is the worst and most problematic extant ideology? You realize that agreeing with a statement like that isn't tantamount to eliminationism or saying that a given religion should be forcibly suppressed, right? Any rational person can acknowledge that cures can be worse than diseases and (for example) deporting every Islamic immigrant or banning the practice of the whole religion would do more harm than good. But that doesn't change the facts that there is something deeply rotten in the culture that produces these kind of terrorists. They are not completely equal and equivalent to other extremists; not historically and definitely not in the world of 2016. The response I always hear is "What good does such an acknowledgement do anyone? What problems does it solve?" Well, judging by how politics lurches to the right and the anti-racist European left loses ground every time this happens, I'd say that a lot of western people do desperately want to hear acknowledgement of that moral judgement. I believe that appeasing this natural, human desire for the appearance of moral consistency does constitute a "good". I don't know what specific form it would take, but formal statements from governments and leftist parties condemning the principles of Shari'a (which are, and I can't stress this enough, the stated political goal of extremists and terrorists regardless of whatever monday-morning quarterbacking you want to do of their motives) would be a good start. Liberal_L33t fucked around with this message at 02:14 on Mar 23, 2016 |
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Mar 23, 2016 02:10
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Crossposting from UKMT
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Mar 23, 2016 02:14
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Rigged Death Trap posted:Reactive thinking. Better to be proactive. If what you say is true, that socio-economic inequality and marginalization of these youth is the impetus for radicalization how do you explain this: https://www.academia.edu/9013966/Affluence_Fundamentalism_and_Radicalization_in_Western_European_Muslim_communities It seems a common trope to blame poverty and the host society rather than tenets in the ideology many of these young men subscribe to. This kind of relativism seems to be really blinding. JohannesSilentio fucked around with this message at 02:22 on Mar 23, 2016 |
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Mar 23, 2016 02:18
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Liberal_L33t posted:Is there any level of violence against western societies for being non-Islamic (or for not integrating large immigrant communities quickly enough and flawlessly enough, as if suicidal terrorist violence is a natural and understandable response to that) that will shift the onus to immigrant cultures rather than the native culture and government? If there was evidence that most or all of the people within those immigrant cultures wanted to wage war against Europe and the U.S., probably. But there isn't, because the way you're framing this conflict is ridiculously inaccurate. The fact of the matter is, everybody here is placing adequate blame on the perpetrators of this crime, on ISIS, and on terrorists in general. Reminding people that there are things Western countries could do to integrate immigrants better and thus make it more difficult for terrorist groups to recruit them is not anything close to placing blame exclusively on the West.
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Mar 23, 2016 02:23
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Liberal_L33t posted:Is there... Well said
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Mar 23, 2016 02:42
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JohannesSilentio posted:If what you say is true, that socio-economic inequality and marginalization of these youth is the impetus for radicalization how do you explain this: From the study, p.430: (emphasis mine) quote:
quote:Alternatively, the causal pattern may work differently – perhaps respondents who are closely connected to ancestral nations in the Muslim world both identify themselves as more prosperous because of a different frame of reference and retain a schema of religious values that is more reflective of that in the native country. In either case, those that feel more affluent are more likely to espouse radical beliefs – and this tendency is greatly enhanced when there is an involuntary separation from the labor market. Future research should certainly attempt to disentangle these possibilities. All available evidence suggests that a major factor in the radicalization and recruitment of Muslims in Europe into the Islamic State and other terrorist groups, is the perception that European societies treat them as second-class citizens. This would logically be heightened among educated, relatively well-off individuals who are suddenly unable to find employment.
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Mar 23, 2016 02:43
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JohannesSilentio posted:It seems a common trope to blame poverty and the host society rather than tenets in the ideology many of these young men subscribe to. This kind of relativism seems to be really blinding. given that the united states doesn't have the same problem of radicalized second-generation immigrants subscribing to violent anti-western ideologies, european conservatives really should be asking themselves what the US is getting right that their own governments are getting wrong
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Mar 23, 2016 02:46
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JohannesSilentio posted:If what you say is true, that socio-economic inequality and marginalization of these youth is the impetus for radicalization how do you explain this: I blame individual's upbringing for instilling such poor reactions to failure in their lives. If one fails at a relationship, the appropriate pathway for coping isn't to set off on implementing some delusional plan to create paradise, its to accept that one is a failure and needs to change the core of who they are if they wish to quit being a failure.
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Mar 23, 2016 02:48
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Majorian posted:Reminding people that there are things Western countries could do to integrate immigrants better and thus make it more difficult for terrorist groups to recruit them is not anything close to placing blame exclusively on the West. What are Western countries doing for Chinese and Indian immigrants that make it more difficult for terrorist groups to recruit from them?
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Mar 23, 2016 02:57
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TheWhiteNightmare posted:What are Western countries doing for Chinese and Indian immigrants that make it more difficult for terrorist groups to recruit from them? Possibly not investigating their children for looking a bit terroristy on account of them being a bit muslim.
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Mar 23, 2016 03:02
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Popular Thug Drink posted:given that the united states doesn't have the same problem of radicalized second-generation immigrants subscribing to violent anti-western ideologies, european conservatives really should be asking themselves what the US is getting right that their own governments are getting wrong It should also clue in any dolt who still subscribes to a facile "discrimination -> terrorism" hypothesis. Unless you want to take the position that the United States treats its Muslim majority so very much better than any other nation. Majorian posted:All available evidence suggests that a major factor in the radicalization and recruitment of Muslims in Europe into the Islamic State and other terrorist groups, is the perception that European societies treat them as second-class citizens. This would logically be heightened among educated, relatively well-off individuals who are suddenly unable to find employment. You're cherry picking a few isolated half sentences in the belief it proves your point, which is going to be difficult when the study you pick from makes a very different conclusion. It's just more circular reasoning. Racist impoverishment and alienation cause terrorism! What's that, these latest terrorists were university-educated middle class? Well that proves my point, think of how alienated by racism and intolerance they must have been to become terrorists. Nor does it engage with the fact that a disproportionate number of jihadis are converts. Is it an atmosphere of anti-Muslim alienation that turns some native-born blonde blue-eyed European kid into a suicide bomber in Syria in six months? The Insect Court fucked around with this message at 03:14 on Mar 23, 2016 |
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Mar 23, 2016 03:11
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TheWhiteNightmare posted:What are Western countries doing for Chinese and Indian immigrants that make it more difficult for terrorist groups to recruit from them? Is your hypothesis that a reimplementation of the Chinese Exclusion Act would not cause awful things? Because while I am opposed to it, it might be very interesting. Turn to every second generation Chinese American and say gently caress you, not only are you not a citizen, you are of no value at all, scum. I must say sounds like an interesting concept. Let's try it again in this modern world! Edit: TIC, I generously responded to you in a more reasonable, less snide fashion, after you were quite belligerent. Want to talk more about Iran? Goatse James Bond fucked around with this message at 03:17 on Mar 23, 2016 |
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Mar 23, 2016 03:14
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TheWhiteNightmare posted:What are Western countries doing for Chinese and Indian immigrants that make it more difficult for terrorist groups to recruit from them? The fact that many Westerners perceive Middle Easterners as inherently more dangerous than East or South Asian immigrants is definitely a factor there. As is the fact that the U.S. and the West in general continues to support authoritarian regimes in the Sunni states, where many ME immigrants come from. The Insect Court posted:You're cherry picking a few isolated half sentences in the belief it proves your point, which is going to be difficult when the study you pick from makes a very different conclusion. LOL, what? I wasn't the one who originally cited that study, and the passage that I did cite, suggests that JohannesSilentio was drawing the wrong conclusions from it. quote:It's just more circular reasoning. Racist impoverishment and alienation cause terrorism! What's that, these latest terrorists were university-educated middle class? Well that proves my point, think of how alienated by racism and intolerance they must have been to become terrorists. Alienation, being treated as second-class citizens in Western Europe, not finding jobs and social advancement, etc, have long been part of counterterrorism experts' explanations for how Muslims in the West can be recruited by terrorist groups. Want to know something that's not part of any credible expert's explanation? "ISLAM IS EEEEEVIL!!!!  "quote:Nor does it engage with the fact that a disproportionate number of jihadis are converts. Source?
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Mar 23, 2016 03:39
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GreyjoyBastard posted:Is your hypothesis that a reimplementation of the Chinese Exclusion Act would not cause awful things? And which European country is sending the message " gently caress you, you are of no value at all, scum" to immigrants? As a matter of fact, can you give me any examples from within the past 5 years of a European head of state or Parliament saying anything even slightly negative about the race of immigrant groups as opposed to their religion?
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Mar 23, 2016 03:43
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https://twitter.com/LotteLeicht1/status/712404598338797568/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
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Mar 23, 2016 03:58
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Liberal_L33t posted:And which European country is sending the message " gently caress you, you are of no value at all, scum" to immigrants? As a matter of fact, can you give me any examples from within the past 5 years of a European head of state or Parliament saying anything even slightly negative about the race of immigrant groups as opposed to their religion? You can't possibly be this clueless. By your logic there's no racism in the U.S. because the President and Congress doesn't say anything bad about black people's race. e: Oh yeah, now I remember - you called Syrian refugees "feral" not so long ago. So you probably are this clueless. Majorian fucked around with this message at 04:26 on Mar 23, 2016 |
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Mar 23, 2016 04:16
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nvm
Homestar Runner fucked around with this message at 04:59 on Mar 23, 2016 |
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Mar 23, 2016 04:56
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oops
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Mar 23, 2016 04:56
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Homestar Runner posted:n***as! Hmmm, great substantive post. Truly, you have owned us all.
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Mar 23, 2016 04:57
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Lotka Volterra posted:Hmmm, great substantive post. Truly, you have owned us all. thanks! k bye
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Mar 23, 2016 04:59
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Popular Thug Drink posted:given that the united states doesn't have the same problem of radicalized second-generation immigrants subscribing to violent anti-western ideologies, european conservatives really should be asking themselves what the US is getting right that their own governments are getting wrong If only the europeans had the foresight of using their intelligence services to traffick cocaine to their immigrant ghettoes and having any kind of ethnic or racial solidarity town up by gang violence and a drug epidemic.
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Mar 23, 2016 05:02
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rudatron posted:There's a clear problem of extremism that must be solved with force. The only reason these people can operate is because of the support network, so long as that network remains, more attacks will occur. Pretending that discrimination is the only factor is absurd, as is pretending that the lack of integration isn't contributing to both the extremism and the discrimination. What does integration mean to you? Slightly browner Europeans?
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Mar 23, 2016 05:23
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The acceptable answer is to ban all religion.
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Mar 23, 2016 05:42
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Chomskyan posted:https://twitter.com/LotteLeicht1/status/712404598338797568/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw See? That breaks my heart. It's not some random Syrian dude, who's probably worse off than any of the whiny European-born Daesh cocksuckers, who's in any way responsible for this. He's got nothing to be sorry for. We should be sorry for associating him with the murderous pricks who committed this horrible crime. On the issue of integration: it's more than that. One of my city's contributions to Daesh was a thick loving white boy who converted to Islam and decided to go be cannon fodder in Syria. What the gently caress was he rebelling against? He felt picked on and not coddled by the world, so obviously the solution is to go try and kill innocent people, right?
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Mar 23, 2016 05:45
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OwlFancier posted:Possibly not investigating their children for looking a bit terroristy on account of them being a bit muslim. You're framing that as a chicken-and-egg problem. Also it's wrong, because Indians do look a bit Muslim. GreyjoyBastard posted:Is your hypothesis that a reimplementation of the Chinese Exclusion Act would not cause awful things? Yes, I remember when the EU passed the Muslim Exclusion Act. Maybe it should be repealed?
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Mar 23, 2016 05:53
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Liberal_L33t posted:And which European country is sending the message " gently caress you, you are of no value at all, scum" to immigrants? As a matter of fact, can you give me any examples from within the past 5 years of a European head of state or Parliament saying anything even slightly negative about the race of immigrant groups as opposed to their religion? Do you think they should send that message to Muslim refugees? Edit: Cat Mattress, I will admit I am firmly opposed to a Muslim Exclusion Act. Double edit: No really, Mr Leet. I seem to recall you have opinions about Muslims. How should They be treated in an enlightened Western democracy? Goatse James Bond fucked around with this message at 06:08 on Mar 23, 2016 |
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Mar 23, 2016 05:54
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Cat Mattress posted:Also it's wrong, because Indians do look a bit Muslim. Those black people do look a bit gangsta. PT6A posted:On the issue of integration: it's more than that. One of my city's contributions to Daesh was a thick loving white boy who converted to Islam and decided to go be cannon fodder in Syria. What the gently caress was he rebelling against? He felt picked on and not coddled by the world, so obviously the solution is to go try and kill innocent people, right? I think the issue is that he's a moron and wasted his time being cannon fodder for a bunch of shitholes instead of blowing himself up on rich shits.
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Mar 23, 2016 05:57
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TheWhiteNightmare posted:What are Western countries doing for Chinese and Indian immigrants that make it more difficult for terrorist groups to recruit from them? Only let in the ones who are rich and/or have professional degrees, and even then in small numbers
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Mar 23, 2016 05:58
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Badger of Basra posted:What does integration mean to you? Slightly browner Europeans? Yes, pretty much cultural genocide
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Mar 23, 2016 05:59
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Liberal_L33t posted:And which European country is sending the message " gently caress you, you are of no value at all, scum" to immigrants? As a matter of fact, can you give me any examples from within the past 5 years of a European head of state or Parliament saying anything even slightly negative about the race of immigrant groups as opposed to their religion? It doesn't matter what they do, being a visible minority means constant tension with the majority culture. It's pretty much unavoidable.
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Mar 23, 2016 06:02
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Peven Stan posted:If only the europeans had the foresight of using their intelligence services to traffick cocaine to their immigrant ghettoes and having any kind of ethnic or racial solidarity town up by gang violence and a drug epidemic. See, the lesson you should be taking from this is, even though the U.S. government did this to the black population (and it was atrocious), the U.S. still does a better job of integrating minorities than a lot of Western Europe. Extreme0 posted:The acceptable answer is to ban all religion. I think the real answer is to ban all intolerant people. Intolerance of the intolerant is the only intolerance we can tolerate. 
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Mar 23, 2016 06:03
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Lyesh posted:No, I'm posting at a bunch of people acting like muslims are uniquely violent. The US is plenty loving violent, it's just far far far richer, so it can afford to keep the blood of the hands of its people. Some other people did a bad thing, so this excuses this bad thing.
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Mar 23, 2016 06:46
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-Troika- posted:Some other people did a bad thing, so this excuses this bad thing. Ain't a single person in this thread excusing this bad thing, so I have no idea what you're talking about. Nobody posting here wants to see the specific people who performed this attack and are proven to do so in a court of law walk free.
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Mar 23, 2016 07:18
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