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Doctor Malaver posted:You moved to such a neighborhood and enjoy the life there but at the same time you're saying that the politics that created those neighborhoods are a failure and the results are bad? yes exactly
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as halfway crooks posted:yes exactly Do you like immigrant neighborhoods or not?
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Mar 23, 2016 13:10
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Pluskut Tukker posted:I have absolutely no idea how you came to that conclusion from my posts. You claim they're terrorists because of White Man's Terrible Oppression, then when someone pointed out what Molenbeek's policies for the last twenty years have been you've said "no, they're still suffering from White Man's Terrible Oppression". If they're condemned to be unhappy forever even when the municipality coddles them as much as it possibly can, then the only rational thing to do for them is to seek happiness elsewhere.
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Mar 23, 2016 13:11
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Pluskut Tukker posted:I have absolutely no idea how you came to that conclusion from my posts. Exclusion from society is a part of it but it was never a policy to do it. Basically refugees was given a place to live, social security, free healthcare and college and then we just kinda assumed people would figure it out on their own. Your basic needs are covered - now soar like an eagle! It's great if the immigrants have the resources to take advantage of it... but a lot don't and we failed to realize that or react to it. We have a sizable Iranian community where I live and they do awesome. Not that weird because Iranians are pretty well educated and many of the immigrants are from urban areas - the transition is not that big and their basic skill sets are still useful. Conversely the Somali and Palestinian communities don't do that well. Again, not that weird. Transitioning from a refugee camp, war zone, failed state or being a dirt farmer... that's loving hard. But it's not like people in Europe came together and decided to ignore resource-weak immigrants so they would rot in secluded communities because that's hilarious or something. It happened because there's not some gilded rulebook on how to handle immigration from a myriad of backgrounds and people are not really that smart and governments are slow to react.
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Mar 23, 2016 13:11
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Cat Mattress posted:You claim they're terrorists because of White Man's Terrible Oppression, then when someone pointed out what Molenbeek's policies for the last twenty years have been you've said "no, they're still suffering from White Man's Terrible Oppression". If they're condemned to be unhappy forever even when the municipality coddles them as much as it possibly can, then the only rational thing to do for them is to seek happiness elsewhere. I don't claim that at all; my point really was that the phenomenon of people radicalizing and becoming terrorists has many possible causes, of which social exclusion is one. And just because the community of Molenbeek has tried to address that doesn't mean it has gone away ("coddling"? Seriously?). R. Mute earlier in this thread posted information about labour market discrimination in Belgium (which exists in the Netherlands too, and probably every EU country); that problem is generally not solved by municipal policies, or even national ones. You can call that 'White Man's Terrible Oppression' if you want and say muslims should just leave or something; I'd prefer to find out how we can fix it. Because we're sure as hell not going to prevent terrorist attacks by antagonizing more people and making generalizations about 'the muslims'. Anosmoman posted:It happened because there's not some gilded rulebook on how to handle immigration from a myriad of backgrounds and people are not really that smart and governments are slow to react. I fully agree with this. But you can argue that exclusion and discrimination are problems at the same time that you can argue integration is turning out to be problematic. Or maybe we should ditch the concept of integration entirely and just focus on making sure people get an education, find jobs, are able to form a family, and let the rest sort itself out. Pluskut Tukker fucked around with this message at 13:38 on Mar 23, 2016 |
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Mar 23, 2016 13:33
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rudatron posted:Why should the laws be 100% effective before you actually start examining other possibilities? Here's a radical thought: maybe the muslims aren't integrating, because they don't want to integrate. In that scenario, they'll always be excluded, because that's what they prefer, and there'll always be bombings regardless of whatever laws are passed, because of that self-isolation and its consequences. I would tend to agree with this. How do you get people to integrate into what they perceive as dar al kufr? In Canada there is a night and day difference between how successful the Lebanese refugees from the 80s have done and the Somalis from the 90s. The Lebanese have flourished and integrated, and shwarma is a popular food item. The Somalis live in rough neighbourhoods and have a reputation for crime, violence, and recently sending recruits to ISIS. Clearly the issue is not as simple as racism.
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Mar 23, 2016 13:42
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Frosted Flake posted:I would tend to agree with this. How do you get people to integrate into what they perceive as dar al kufr? In Canada there is a night and day difference between how successful the Lebanese refugees from the 80s have done and the Somalis from the 90s. The Lebanese have flourished and integrated, and shwarma is a popular food item. The Somalis live in rough neighbourhoods and have a reputation for crime, violence, and recently sending recruits to ISIS. Clearly the issue is not as simple as racism. I think we're getting awfully close to "Final Solution" reasoning here. For centuries, Jews in Europe were an "other" because they dressed differently, had different laws, frequented mostly Jew owned businesses, etc. That was a big part of the origins of anti-Semitism. We all know how that turned out.
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Mar 23, 2016 13:50
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steinrokkan posted:Why the gently caress are you even talking about McCarthyism. I guess we need to support Saudi agenda not to hurt the feelings of SA people. The funny part about McCarthyism is that McCarthy was actually right-- the US government at the time indeed was riddled with Soviet spies. Just, none of them were the people he accused 
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Mar 23, 2016 13:52
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Doomtalker posted:I think we're getting awfully close to "Final Solution" reasoning here. For centuries, Jews in Europe were an "other" because they dressed differently, had different laws, frequented mostly Jew owned businesses, etc. That was a big part of the origins of anti-Semitism. We all know how that turned out. That's absurd. As I said look at how successful Lebanese and Iranians have been, their participation in Canadian politics, arts, the military, the economy. They chose to participate in Canadian society and were successful.
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Mar 23, 2016 13:54
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Doctor Malaver posted:Do you like immigrant neighborhoods or not? whats the confusion? macro vs micro Anosmoman posted:Exclusion from society is a part of it but it was never a policy to do it. Basically refugees was given a place to live, social security, free healthcare and college and then we just kinda assumed people would figure it out on their own. Your basic needs are covered - now soar like an eagle! It's great if the immigrants have the resources to take advantage of it... but a lot don't and we failed to realize that or react to it. We have a sizable Iranian community where I live and they do awesome. Not that weird because Iranians are pretty well educated and many of the immigrants are from urban areas - the transition is not that big and their basic skill sets are still useful. Conversely the Somali and Palestinian communities don't do that well. Again, not that weird. Transitioning from a refugee camp, war zone, failed state or being a dirt farmer... that's loving hard. But it's not like people in Europe came together and decided to ignore resource-weak immigrants so they would rot in secluded communities because that's hilarious or something. It happened because there's not some gilded rulebook on how to handle immigration from a myriad of backgrounds and people are not really that smart and governments are slow to react. true but they kind of did ignore them, there was (at least in germany and netherlands) a narrative about how these were gastarbeiders who were just going to help rebuild and then would go home in a couple decades and because of this there was no need to invite them to dinner or take them camping and oops looks like theyre never going home and now their kids are angry about never going camping
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Mar 23, 2016 13:55
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Doomtalker posted:I think we're getting awfully close to "Final Solution" reasoning here. For centuries, Jews in Europe were an "other" because they dressed differently, had different laws, frequented mostly Jew owned businesses, etc. That was a big part of the origins of anti-Semitism. We all know how that turned out. Jews were the "other" because they were forced to live in ghettos and were not allowed to participate in aspects of Christian society. Also, they were scapegoated by the nobility in order to redirect peasant anger. It's an entirely different situation.
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Mar 23, 2016 14:01
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Frosted Flake posted:I would tend to agree with this. How do you get people to integrate into what they perceive as dar al kufr? In Canada there is a night and day difference between how successful the Lebanese refugees from the 80s have done and the Somalis from the 90s. The Lebanese have flourished and integrated, and shwarma is a popular food item. The Somalis live in rough neighbourhoods and have a reputation for crime, violence, and recently sending recruits to ISIS. Clearly the issue is not as simple as racism. by incentivizing them to settle into the countryside and small towns rather than forming isolated enclaves the bread theory ever make bread? if u just dump the flour into the water u get gross clumps that are dry on the inside, u need to sift it in slowly and make sure there is a lot of mixing basically europe just dumped all the flour (immigrants) into their big bowl of culture with the expectation that they would just pick them out later but oops thats not gonna happen and now kids are growing up inside the clumps and it sucks and they say gently caress the big bowl of culture that i was never properly mixed into i didnt want to be part of it anyway and hm ive never seen that group of three guys with big beards before but they are going up around the street after friday prayers trying to talk to all the young goons with gucci hats and nektasjes and bright red vespas and mostly they get told to gently caress off but i talked to them and they told me that my ancestors were kings in the desert and that i am special and the bread solution to clumps is frissage, you basically take the clumps and smear them apart i dont think ill try to extend this part of the metaphor
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Mar 23, 2016 14:08
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Pluskut Tukker posted:R. Mute earlier in this thread posted information about labour market discrimination in Belgium (which exists in the Netherlands too, and probably every EU country); that problem is generally not solved by municipal policies, or even national ones. Labour market discrimination is solved by full employment. Newsflash, western Europe has a whole has massive unemployment issue and the only solution so far is to make jobs shittier with stuff like zero-hour contracts because a return to slave labor is the only way Europe can compete with the social, environmental, and monetary dumping of countries like China. And even if immigrant communities might have a worse time finding a job than natives, you'd have to be really dumb to think the situation we have is full employment for whities, total unemployment for Muslims. Frosted Flake posted:That's absurd. As I said look at how successful Lebanese and Iranians have been, their participation in Canadian politics, arts, the military, the economy. They chose to participate in Canadian society and were successful. Lebanese, Armenian, and Iranian immigrants have generally been quite successful in Europe too. A big difference is that they were often among the elites in their country of origin, and had a good level of education as well as some wealth. So they went on to become CEOs, ministers, TV stars, acclaimed authors... Whereas most immigrants from Turkey or the Maghreb were cheap manual labor with little qualifications. The sociocultural category of the parents has a large influence on the sociocultural category of the children, since upward mobility is restricted (and the economic neoliberalism of the European Union, with its emphasis on destroying free and universal public services to replace them with competing private for-profit businesses, also known as FYGM: the Absolute Dogma, has only worsened the situation, with no sign of it becoming ever any better) so it turns out that manual laborers with no qualifications beget manual laborers with no qualifications, regardless of faith and skin color. In the meantime, however, Europe outsourced all of their unqualified manual labor to China, India, Pakistan, Bangladesh... because this way they don't have to follow anti-pollution regulations, worker protection regulations, etc. and producing T-shirts by having children plunging their ungloved hands in carcinogens eighteen hours per day, seven days a week, allows the profit margin to increase by 3%. So all these second generation migrants find themselves without any job prospect, but natives with the same lack of qualifications are in the same situation. It's not racism, it's the free market and the ideology that private profit is the only measure of righteousness in the world. You'd do well to look at the number of converts in jihadists. Basically people turn to Islamic terrorism because communism is dead, so it's the only remaining ideology opposed to capitalism.
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Mar 23, 2016 14:26
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The end goal of multiculturalist Liberals and assimilationists is ultimately the same, which is the westernization of immigrants. The latter is at least honest about their intentions. There's something insidious about, on the one hand, claiming you value multiculturalism and ethnic expression, and on the other, trying to engineer society to induce a multicultural/ethnic expression that's more palatable to Western, Liberal morality. You can't talk about reforming structural inequalities specifically as an antidote to radicalization, without also talking about Westernizing Islam. e. "If we give you a bigger stake in Western society, then you'll see how inappropriate and problematic your beliefs are. This kebab is delicious by the way." unlimited shrimp fucked around with this message at 14:52 on Mar 23, 2016 |
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Mar 23, 2016 14:45
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btw. just because there isn't a national racist policy doesn't mean that minorities aren't made to feel different by individual racists. I'm pretty sure that can cause some dudes to snap and be drawn to a percieved community.
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Mar 23, 2016 14:53
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PT6A posted:One doesn't see many Cathars these days. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zalmoxis And that's gone too. It was pretty big, actually, at one point. -Troika- posted:The funny part about McCarthyism is that McCarthy was actually right-- the US government at the time indeed was riddled with Soviet spies. Actually, by the time he accused the US government, it was pretty much no _longer_ riddled by Soviet spies - ten years earlier, yes, but it was pretty clean by then. However, the KGB's internal files say Nixon was right about Hiss. Warcabbit fucked around with this message at 15:18 on Mar 23, 2016 |
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Mar 23, 2016 15:15
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DarkCrawler posted:btw. just because there isn't a national racist policy doesn't mean that minorities aren't made to feel different by individual racists. I'm pretty sure that can cause some dudes to snap and be drawn to a percieved community. This reasoning can be used to excuse literally anything.
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Mar 23, 2016 15:15
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Cat Mattress posted:You claim they're terrorists because of White Man's Terrible Oppression, then when someone pointed out what Molenbeek's policies for the last twenty years have been you've said "no, they're still suffering from White Man's Terrible Oppression". If they're condemned to be unhappy forever even when the municipality coddles them as much as it possibly can, then the only rational thing to do for them is to seek happiness elsewhere. Gee, it's almost like structural and cultural discrimination has long-lasting effects and can't be declared over and swept under the rug after a few decades of token effort. It's almost like achieving equality is a long-term continuous effort that requires just as long to fix as the problems did to create.
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Mar 23, 2016 15:36
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An Angry Bug posted:Gee, it's almost like structural and cultural discrimination has long-lasting effects and can't be declared over and swept under the rug after a few decades of token effort. It's almost like achieving equality is a long-term continuous effort that requires just as long to fix as the problems did to create. For Christ's sake, f something can't be achieved in few decades, it's not worth trying. Fortunately it can be achieved, as demonstrated by the fact it has been achieved by many generations of immigrants who aren't blowing themselves up in public transport. Also "token effort". Fortunately for you any amount of effort can be dismissed as "token" because of circular reasoning. "Why did they attack?" "Because the society was unfair to them!" "How do you know the society didn't treat them fair?" "Because they attacked!" steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 15:45 on Mar 23, 2016 |
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Mar 23, 2016 15:43
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steinrokkan posted:For Christ's sake, f something can't be achieved in few decades, it's not worth trying. When did the US colonize Italy or Ireland? When did Vietnam or Malaysia colonize China? Only Europe has immigrants from former colonies, this is the major difference. Radical Islam does not make them violent and disillusioned, they become violent and disillusioned and they find radical Islam. These guys are petty criminals who find a post-colonial religion.
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Mar 23, 2016 15:56
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steinrokkan posted:For Christ's sake, f something can't be achieved in few decades, it's not worth trying. Abolition Women's Suffrage Gay Rights Public Infrastructure Vaccination Nuclear Power The God Damned Internet
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Mar 23, 2016 15:56
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I think we need to understand the oppression that cultural marxists are inflicting on reactionary white guys, as this is the explanation for Anders Breivik. Also, we have to empathize with Elliot Rodgers, oppressed by evil women.
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Mar 23, 2016 15:56
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An Angry Bug posted:Gee, it's almost like structural and cultural discrimination has long-lasting effects and can't be declared over and swept under the rug after a few decades of token effort. It's almost like achieving equality is a long-term continuous effort that requires just as long to fix as the problems did to create. Why are you calling decades of positive immigrant-focused policy making a token effort?
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Mar 23, 2016 16:01
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An Angry Bug posted:Gee, it's almost like structural and cultural discrimination has long-lasting effects and can't be declared over and swept under the rug after a few decades of token effort. It's almost like achieving equality is a long-term continuous effort that requires just as long to fix as the problems did to create. i should know better than to reply to a post that starts with "gee", but molenbeek has only been muslim for four decades and half of that has been spent with the belgian socialist party in control of local government / making exactly the "long-term continuous effort" you demand, including: - electoral reform to allow foreigners to vote - helping "allochtoon" candidates run for office (successfully) - services to fight social exclusion (e.g. arts funding, "house of cultures") guess what? its now worse than it ever was 
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Mar 23, 2016 16:01
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menino posted:When did the US colonize Italy or Ireland? When did Vietnam or Malaysia colonize China? Only Europe has immigrants from former colonies, this is the major difference. Colonialism doesn't seem like a huge factor in radicalization since some radicals come from countries that were never colonized (at least by Europeans) or come to countries other than their former metropolis, and in addition to that most post-colonial diasporas don't cause problems and the most radical immigrants never experienced colonialism (yes, I know colonialism has had lingering post-colonial effects), often even their parents or grandparents didn't. As I said before, it's the product of a violent ideology tergeting excluded individuals with similar backgrounds so they can share the same narrative, colonialism or not is coincidental to that imho. steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 16:04 on Mar 23, 2016 |
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Mar 23, 2016 16:02
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menino posted:Radical Islam does not make them violent and disillusioned, they become violent and disillusioned and they find radical Islam. These guys are petty criminals who find a post-colonial religion. this is the correct order
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Mar 23, 2016 16:02
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re: asian immigrants https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inglehart%96Welzel_cultural_map_of_the_world
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Mar 23, 2016 16:04
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menino posted:Radical Islam does not make them violent and disillusioned, they become violent and disillusioned and they find radical Islam. These guys are petty criminals who find a post-colonial religion.
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Mar 23, 2016 16:12
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NathanScottPhillips posted:This logic works for gangs and normal criminal behavior, sure. I think it falls down in light of Saudi Arabia spending billions of dollars promoting extremism throughout the world. Sure, the radical faction in the KSA ensures that that Wahabbi/Salafist guys are there to catch these guys when they turn disaffected, and turn garden variety dipshits into suicide bombers.
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Mar 23, 2016 16:15
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as halfway crooks posted:re: asian immigrants That's just a map of the Inner Sphere. 
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Mar 23, 2016 16:16
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as halfway crooks posted:re: asian immigrants This didn't just happen naturally. The upper right hosed with the lower left for decades to ensure they stayed where they were, and the polygynous Gulf states continue the process due to their interest in exporting both unstable entitled young men and an ideology cooked up to create more of them.
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Mar 23, 2016 16:22
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as halfway crooks posted:re: asian immigrants This is a bizarre graph in a lot of ways but the weirdest thing that jumps out is how Cyprus is lumped in with South Asia.
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Mar 23, 2016 16:25
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steinrokkan posted:This reasoning can be used to excuse literally anything. I'm not excusing anything, just stating a fact.
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Mar 23, 2016 16:27
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steinrokkan posted:Colonialism doesn't seem like a huge factor in radicalization since some radicals come from countries that were never colonized (at least by Europeans) or come to countries other than their former metropolis Don't be obtuse; the Western world propped up dictatorships all throughout the Islamic world during and after the Cold War. NathanScottPhillips posted:This logic works for gangs and normal criminal behavior, sure. I think it falls down in light of Saudi Arabia spending billions of dollars promoting extremism throughout the world. If this were accurate, radical Islamism would be considerably more widespread than it is, and would cut across a wider swath of demographics than it actually does. As it stands, it's pretty clear that people who are recruited into Islamist terrorist groups are predisposed to being radicalized.
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Mar 23, 2016 16:49
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Frosted Flake posted:I would tend to agree with this. How do you get people to integrate into what they perceive as dar al kufr? In Canada there is a night and day difference between how successful the Lebanese refugees from the 80s have done and the Somalis from the 90s. The Lebanese have flourished and integrated, and shwarma is a popular food item. The Somalis live in rough neighbourhoods and have a reputation for crime, violence, and recently sending recruits to ISIS. Clearly the issue is not as simple as racism. Here's a possibility: Do you perhaps think, maybe, just maybe, that the fact they have moved from their original home, thousands of miles, to a different country, might show a slight desire to integrate? If all the truly wanted to do was sit around, do crime, violence and send recruits to ISIS they could have done that much more easily where they came from. The tickets would have been far less expensive, for one thing.
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Mar 23, 2016 17:07
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Ddraig posted:Here's a possibility: That has nothing to do with the differences between Somalian refugees and Lebanese refugees, though. I think the Syrian refugees will probably integrate well in Canada, based on the Syrian people I met in Canada well before this crisis even began, but we should still work to figure out why and how we hosed up so badly with the Somalian community, so we don't do it again.
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Mar 23, 2016 17:11
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zzz
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Mar 23, 2016 17:16
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Ddraig posted:Here's a possibility: I'm not really sure. Iraqis, Syrians and Lebanese are doing pretty well. They're active members of the community, a big part of the economy, and send their kids to get higher learning. The Somalis have not had that happen. Maybe it has to do with social niche? Somalis are considered 'Black' by most Canadians but are virulently racist against Ango and Franco-Africans, Caribbeans and Black Canadians. Since they're not part of 'White' Canada and seem to hate 'Black' Canada, it sets them apart.
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Mar 23, 2016 17:20
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GaussianCopula posted:How high percentage of Muslims? You forgot. What Middleeastern monarchy is funding the mosques there? PT6A posted:That has nothing to do with the differences between Somalian refugees and Lebanese refugees, though. I think the Syrian refugees will probably integrate well in Canada, based on the Syrian people I met in Canada well before this crisis even began, but we should still work to figure out why and how we hosed up so badly with the Somalian community, so we don't do it again. Its weird because most Somalis I knew growing up in Rochester integrated all right, for the most part. Like I knew so many in the community college getting A's and getting nurse certifications. Really must be something Canada did. Crowsbeak fucked around with this message at 17:30 on Mar 23, 2016 |
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Mar 23, 2016 17:23
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Frosted Flake posted:I'm not really sure. Iraqis, Syrians and Lebanese are doing pretty well. They're active members of the community, a big part of the economy, and send their kids to get higher learning. The Somalis have not had that happen. Maybe it has to do with social niche? Somalis are considered 'Black' by most Canadians but are virulently racist against Ango and Franco-Africans, Caribbeans and Black Canadians. Since they're not part of 'White' Canada and seem to hate 'Black' Canada, it sets them apart. This would suggest that Islam, in and of itself, isn't really the problem here, though. There are other cultural, historical, and social factors at play, as you seem to acknowledge here. One of those is likely the fact that Somalia has been the dictionary definition of a failed state since the 80's, with a civil war that hasn't stopped for thirty years. Maybe not the best authority on cultural integration there... 
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Mar 23, 2016 17:31
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