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blowfish posted:No I don't give a poo poo about whether you (used to) have a penis but see yourself as a woman or vice versa, you shouldn't view everything through the lens of your victim complex (which may be the underlying issue here You very, very obviously do. Specifically you care that people must be either a man or a women, no exceptions. blowfish posted:nice strawman You don't actually know what a strawman is, do you?
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Mar 23, 2016 23:52
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Atasnaya Vaflja posted:blowfish is focused very intently on sex organs being the important part of a person's identity, blowing off how people actually identify. Victim mentality or projection: you decide  . Because I actually said that whether your preferred identity matches your genitals isn't important.
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Mar 23, 2016 23:53
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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Frosted Flake posted:Trans people are what 0.05% of the population? 'Non-binary' people less than that? Because this point will get lost on the last page; You're off by a factor of at least 100. It's strange to me that you underestimate the trans population by at least 100x, especially in a time where being trans is still starting to be seen as barely acceptable. There's a lot more trans people than you think. On top of that, you interact with more of us than you'd think - Just because you can't point us out on sight doesn't mean we don't exist.
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Mar 23, 2016 23:54
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Who What Now posted:You very, very obviously do. Specifically you care that people must be either a man or a women, no exceptions. blowfish posted:Victim mentality or projection: you decide
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Mar 23, 2016 23:55
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Being polite and considerate of others is literally the easiest thing on earth. It's a choice between avoiding as much conflict as possible while making friends and promoting goodwill or playing life on hardmode by needlessly pissing someone off when it was in your power to remain on good terms. If you're a normal human being it just comes naturally, but even if you're a hateful rear end in a top hat you have to recognize that it's better to be liked than hated, regardless of your feelings for the other person's personal pronoun. Reconfiguring an entire nation's legal system to outlaw divorce or banning women from leaving the home without a male escort because the alternative is against your religious beliefs is a bit harder than just choosing one word over another. Deified Data fucked around with this message at 23:59 on Mar 23, 2016 |
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Mar 23, 2016 23:56
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What lies beneath all this poo poo about "victim complexes" is quite simply the desire that the trans individual, or the gender nonconforming individual, not exist, and only remain an individual who can be totally dismissed as insane or sick. That is, the goal of such rhetoric is to, at first in the context of the conversation, and then generally, annihilate all trans people, all nonconformist people. And then they'll be coming for any gays who aren't masc, any lesbians that aren't lipstick. The ideology they seek to unleash is a hellish one.
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Mar 23, 2016 23:56
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blowfish posted:Victim mentality or projection: you decide If it's not important to you why even bring it up when the term trans person exists? Why the weird focus on a stranger's genitals?
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Mar 23, 2016 23:56
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Atasnaya Vaflja posted:Because this point will get lost on the last page; Is there any information for prevalence by age range? I'm wondering if it's more weighted towards younger people like bisexuality.
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Mar 23, 2016 23:56
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blowfish posted:Because I didn't list things that would go under "something else" I must obviously desire to oppress the poo poo out of people I didn't list. Golly, why would anyone think you'd want to do that what with you're whole "  special snowflake victim mentality special snowflake victim mentality Special Snowflake VICTIM loving MENTALITY AAAAAAAAAAAAA" schtick and all.
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Mar 24, 2016 00:02
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OwlFancier posted:Is there any information for prevalence by age range? I'm wondering if it's more weighted towards younger people like bisexuality. There's actually no formal information on it, and none that I can find by age. The best number I can find is 0.3%-0.5% between the ages of 18-64; So the 100x factor I said was wrong. [ New York Times ] I do see people arguing the same thing Frosted Flake is waver anywhere from "well only 10% of the population is trans!" to "only 5%!" to Frosted Flake's incredible minimum of "0.05%" all saying the numbers were small enough to basically "ignore." I personally think that the numbers are going to be off for a while because there's so much stigma involved even still. In a lot of places even across America it's a social and familial death sentence.
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Mar 24, 2016 00:04
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Atasnaya Vaflja posted:There's actually no formal information on it, and none that I can find by age. The best number I can find is 0.3%-0.5% between the ages of 18-64; So the 100x factor I said was wrong. [ New York Times ] Even with the minimalist figures, there are still five times as many trans people as jewelers, and yet we have a huge vocabulary around jewelry which derives from jewelworking jargon. Basically, it's important to remember that specific numbers are very often a platform with which to posture about how unimportant the people you loathe are.
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Mar 24, 2016 00:07
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Atasnaya Vaflja posted:There's actually no formal information on it, and none that I can find by age. The best number I can find is 0.3%-0.5% between the ages of 18-64; So the 100x factor I said was wrong. [ New York Times ] I'd definitely put money on the fraction identifying as trans increasing significantly as time goes on.
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Mar 24, 2016 00:08
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Effectronica posted:Even with the minimalist figures, there are still five times as many trans people as jewelers, and yet we have a huge vocabulary around jewelry which derives from jewelworking jargon. Basically, it's important to remember that specific numbers are very often a platform with which to posture about how unimportant the people you loathe are. Right, it doesn't actually matter how many trans* or genderqueer people there are, that's not an excuse to be a pig-headed rear end to people. It could literally be just one person named and the right thing to do would still be to call that person whatever they ask you to because there is absolutely no reason not to. But apparently to people like Frosted Flake and blowfish it's totally cool to be a douchebag so long as you're doing it to a small enough group of people and don't scream slurs in their faces when you do it.
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Mar 24, 2016 00:16
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Who What Now posted:Because it's trivially easy and a show of basic respect between two individuals. Now explain why you should be allowed to be an rear end in a top hat for absolutely no good reason without being called out on it. If you don't identify as an rear end in a top hat and prefer to be called The Greatness
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Mar 24, 2016 00:37
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Commie NedFlanders posted:If you don't identify as an rear end in a top hat and prefer to be called The Greatness You are very funny, my man.
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Mar 24, 2016 00:40
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You're not going to run into 500 different pronouns unless you are specifically seeking them out. Remembering that one dude (gender neutral!) who prefers xir is not some sort of onerous burden and deliberately snubbing xim just makes you a dick. To steal a bit from John Oliver "Over the past 20 years, we've agreed to call this man Puff Daddy, P. Diddy, just Diddy and now Puff Daddy again – and most people don't even like him!" Edit Hell, you don't even have to remember. You just have to not be a deliberate dick about it and say "Ohh sorry." if they bother to correct you. 7c Nickel fucked around with this message at 00:55 on Mar 24, 2016 |
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Mar 24, 2016 00:45
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Commie NedFlanders posted:If you don't identify as an rear end in a top hat and prefer to be called The Greatness Jesus would be so proud of you.
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Mar 24, 2016 00:47
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7c Nickel posted:You're not going to run into 500 different pronouns unless you are specifically seeking them out. Remembering that one dude (gender neutral!) who prefers xir is not some sort of onerous burden and deliberately snubbing xim just makes you a dick. To steal a bit from John Oliver "Over the past 20 years, we've agreed to call this man Puff Daddy, P. Diddy, just Diddy and now Puff Daddy again – and most people don't even like him!" I repeat that I will call a person the gender that they identify as (him, her, them) but I will not change the English system of grammar when speaking just to accomodate them, any more than I would stop using the words "the" or "a" when referring to them in favor of whatever special snowflake articles of speech they demand I memorize and comply with. I would refuse to refer to someone as "Your Greatness" or whatever in lieu of "You," too. I don't know why you guys can't see the difference between simply correcting someone on which gender you are, and demanding that they comply with your whimsical language bullshit.
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Mar 24, 2016 01:05
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Sucrose posted:I repeat that I will call a person the gender that they identify as (him, her, them) but I will not change the English system of grammar when speaking just to accomodate them, any more than I would stop using the words "the" or "a" when referring to them in favor of whatever special snowflake articles of speech they demand I memorize and comply with. I would refuse to refer to someone as "Your Greatness" or whatever in lieu of "You," too. You still use the 2p familiar, Sucrose? Amazing.
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Mar 24, 2016 01:06
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Sucrose posted:I repeat that I will call a person the gender that they identify as (him, her, them) but I will not change the English system of grammar when speaking just to accomodate them, No one is asking you to do this, you obtuse gently caress.
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Mar 24, 2016 01:09
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It's cool how Sucrose will probably pretend to be a linguistics major for a couple more posts, even though even googling would show you that ey're misusing the term "closed class" for the purposes of thon's ideological beliefs. Whether hir beliefs are repugnant or comedic, I am sure that co will continue to post haughtily about them.
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Mar 24, 2016 01:12
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i swear to god cis people are the most histrionic babies on god's green earth i personally know a lot of genderqueer and non-binary people. they are good friends of mine! all of them, without exception, simply ask to go by they. this xe/xir stuff is like textbook tilting at windmills. this is not some semantic plague sweeping the nation and threatening to throw societal order into primordial chaos. it's usually just some young kids in certain online spaces exploring ways to express their identities (which for whatever reason just makes a lot of cishets go berserk with rage) and let's be totally honest here: who fuckin cares. somebody wants to be called xe? okay. done. back to life. this has never actually like, happened to me, but the idea of it does not make my toes curl and put the fear of god into my heart. a persecution complex is actually a lot less ugly than an unsightly desire to persecute. just try to relax. you'll live longer.
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Mar 24, 2016 01:12
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Sucrose posted:I repeat that I will call a person the gender that they identify as (him, her, them) but I will not change the English system of grammar when speaking just to accomodate them, any more than I would stop using the words "the" or "a" when referring to them in favor of whatever special snowflake articles of speech they demand I memorize and comply with. I would refuse to refer to someone as "Your Greatness" or whatever in lieu of "You," too. You're certainly free to do that. People are also free to think you're an rear end in a top hat for doing that.
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Mar 24, 2016 01:12
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Frosted Flake posted:Trans people are what 0.05% of the population? 'Non-binary' people less than that? Short of sharing classes, attending LGBT events, or being introduced through mutual friends, I will never encounter a person like that in more than passing. I don't worry about the gender of my barista or barber, I make smalltalk, tip and go about my day. Yeah, and it's never the case that you go up to a barista and say "hey, that other barista, is she--oh I didn't recognize you from behind! Oh, you go by he, whoops," so what's the fuss? Trans people don't start every conversation with "I was not born with a vag but I am trying to pass so please call me she," because the objective is for nobody to realize she wasn't born with a vag. You could say there's no fuss, but you sure seem invested enough in this issue to keep posting about it. When people don't care about something, they tend not to go out of their way to tell everyone how little they care about it over and over again. It's like if a guy went "oh man I really hate My Little Pony porn. Look at all this porn of My Little Pony I found, to show how bad it is! I hate it so much! Here, let me shut the door real quick and spend 5 minutes hating this one brb" OwlFancier posted:I'd definitely put money on the fraction identifying as trans increasing significantly as time goes on. Same here. Also, the smallest valid estimate still leaves us with more trans people in America than goons in the world, so that's a nice way to put it in perspective.
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Mar 24, 2016 01:20
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Who What Now posted:No one is asking you to do this, you obtuse gently caress. Good, so you've given up on defending that "xir/zor/bunself" garbage and how I'd be an rear end in a top hat for refusing to play along with it?
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Mar 24, 2016 01:34
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Sucrose posted:Good, so you've given up on defending that "xir/zor/bunself" garbage and how I'd be an rear end in a top hat for refusing to play along with it? You're an rear end in a top hat for characterizing it in this way, for treating linguistics as a religion, and for leaving your house without wearing a paper bag over your face. You're also a confessed pathological liar and coward.
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Mar 24, 2016 01:40
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Sucrose posted:Good, so you've given up on defending that "xir/zor/bunself" garbage and how I'd be an rear end in a top hat for refusing to play along with it? Oh absolutely not, it's just that using those pronouns won't irreparably destroy all English grammar forever. You seem to be laboring under the delusion that if you use a non-standard word the entire language will somehow disappear forever. But this isn't the case, and yet you continue to act as if it is. Now that we've cleared that up, give me a valid reason why you won't do it.
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Mar 24, 2016 01:45
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Nobody is calling for a Final Solution to the Trans Problem so all the  is absurd. Not using fantasy words is not the same as wishing people didn't exist.I'm happy to be tolerant, and it seems like everybody else is too, so I don't understand why people are so eager to dogpile them for not believing in gender fluidity in the heart of hearts. There isn't an academic or societal consensus on this and may never be. It seems like it sucks to be trans and not have your self-constructed identity align with society. When someone offers you "they" as a lifeline, biting their hand off isn't going to win more supporters to your cause.
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Mar 24, 2016 01:46
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Frosted Flake posted:Nobody is calling for a Final Solution to the Trans Problem so all the My Words to Victor Frankenstein... posted:I want to lay claim to the dark power of my monstrous identity without using it as a weapon against
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Mar 24, 2016 01:48
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Frosted Flake posted:I'm happy to be tolerant, No, you aren't. You in fact have done absolutely nothing except bitch incessantly about how loving awful it is that you need to be tolerant. For pages and pages you've only complained about the burden that poor you has been put under by having to maybe use a slightly different single syllable in a conversation (not that it's actually happened, but hooooooooo-ly poo poo are you upset at the potential that it might maybe happen someday). So no, you aren't actually tolerant, you're just barely aware enough to know you can't say how you actually feel without being called out. quote:It seems like it sucks to be trans and not have your self-constructed identity align with society. 
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Mar 24, 2016 01:54
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I'm sorry that you feel like you've been dogpiled on for who you are. It seems like it must suck to face obstruction in your life just for a way you feel, and that must be difficult for you.
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Mar 24, 2016 01:56
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I don't have any problem with trans people. Throughout I've been consistent with my answer to the OP's question. I wouldn't wear religious garb or eat halal to placate the sensibility of religious people. I similarity respect but don't share the view of gender non-binary people have.
Frosted Flake fucked around with this message at 02:17 on Mar 24, 2016 |
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Mar 24, 2016 02:04
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Frosted Flake posted:That's okay, I have broad shoulders. I'll just go on quietly living my life. Would you kindly? Because your constant whining about how horrible your life is because you're aware trans people exist is pretty awful, I gotta say.
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Mar 24, 2016 02:07
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Trans identities aren't "self-constructed" and everything you tried to say about "being respectful" about trans people is a bold faced lie. You have a huge chip on your shoulder about trans people and you need to go and examine what bigotry and problems you have somewhere far away.
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Mar 24, 2016 02:07
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It's kind of awesome how people seem to think developing your sense of yourself is bad. I guess you're supposed to be meek and submissive. "You will eat [You will eat] bye and bye [bye and bye] In that glorious land above the sky [Way up high] Work and pray [Work and pray] live on hay [live on hay] You'll get pie in the sky when you die [That's a lie!]"
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Mar 24, 2016 02:09
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Atasnaya Vaflja posted:Trans identities aren't "self-constructed" and everything you tried to say about "being respectful" about trans people is a bold faced lie. You have a huge chip on your shoulder about trans people and you need to go and examine what bigotry and problems you have somewhere far away. Using a common English word versus a made up word is not bigotry. I respectfully disagree with a certain conception of gender, privately. Ultimately people can do whatever they want and I don't want to get in the way. What I think has no bearing on their lives, and as long as I'm polite and tolerant it won't.
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Mar 24, 2016 02:25
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You've proven that you aren't polite or tolerant even toward what you think are "acceptable" trans people, in this thread. You've shown that you are very rude and intolerant throughout multiple posts and have hammered that point in very well. You can say you're polite and tolerant as much as you want but your actions and words have shown otherwise. You've been condescending, you've been derogatory, dismissive, and outright ignorant.
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Mar 24, 2016 02:31
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Frosted Flake posted:Using a common English word versus a made up word is not bigotry. I respectfully disagree with a certain conception of gender, privately. Ultimately people can do whatever they want and I don't want to get in the way. What I think has no bearing on their lives, and as long as I'm polite and tolerant it won't. You arent polite and tolerant, though, that's what we keep telling you. The polite and tolerant thing to do would be to say, "Oh, yeah, it's no problem to call you [pronoun]" and not "Well how about I meet you halfway and call you a 'they'? Oh, you'd really I rather not? Well you aren't winning any friends by acting like that, snowflake.  ".You're not actually, meaningfully polite and tolerant, you're just too loving chickenshit to own up to being a close-minded bigot.
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Mar 24, 2016 02:33
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Who What Now posted:Oh absolutely not, it's just that using those pronouns won't irreparably destroy all English grammar forever. You seem to be laboring under the delusion that if you use a non-standard word the entire language will somehow disappear forever. But this isn't the case, and yet you continue to act as if it is. Because I shouldn't have to, and I don't want to encourage the idea that it's a reasonable request.
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Mar 24, 2016 02:37
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How about we agree to disagree. Apparently I think you're special snowflakes and some of you think I'm a bigot. I guess to answer the OP, some feel like accommodation is necessary and some don't. 
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Mar 24, 2016 02:39
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