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Atasnaya Vaflja posted:Trans identities aren't "self-constructed" and everything you tried to say about "being respectful" about trans people is a bold faced lie. You have a huge chip on your shoulder about trans people and you need to go and examine what bigotry and problems you have somewhere far away. Trans identities are absolutely self-constructed. Trans people identify themselves the way they believe they would if they had been socialized as the opposite sex. Doubly so for xitards who just make their identity up as they go.
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Mar 24, 2016 02:41
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"Hey it would mean a lot to me if you'd say xe instead of he when you talk about me." "WHAT IS THIS MADNESS YOU ARE BEYOND ALL REASON THIS IS INSANITY!!!"
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Mar 24, 2016 02:41
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The Kingfish posted:Trans identities are absolutely self-constructed. Trans people identify themselves the way they believe they would if they had been socialized as the opposite sex. Doubly so for xitards who just make their identity up as they go. Explain to me why trans identities are self constructed and cis identities aren't. Frosted Flake posted:How about we agree to disagree. It's strange how multiple people, including trans people, are telling you that your arguments are inherently bigoted and transphobic, but you still don't see any reason to reflect on that. You instead decide to double down on your ideas. les enfants Terrific! fucked around with this message at 02:48 on Mar 24, 2016 |
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Mar 24, 2016 02:45
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Serious question: What does "xir" or any other rare pronoun like that mean that he/she/non-binary (the singular they) doesn't already cover? Is there a commonly accepted definition of xir?
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Mar 24, 2016 02:45
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This poster loves police brutality, but only when its against minorities!
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Sucrose posted:Because I shouldn't have to, Good news! You don't have to. I'm serious, you will not be killed by an elite genderqueer assassin using a rainbow camo rifle. It's true! You aren't being forced to use any word you don't want to. But you are still being an rear end in a top hat if you don't. So if you're so adamant on being one you should at least be upfront about it. Jesus, are you loving leaving or not?
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Mar 24, 2016 02:46
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OwlFancier posted:"Hey it would mean a lot to me if you'd say xe instead of he when you talk about me." *uses they instead* "WHAT THE gently caress IS WRONG WITH YOU?!? NOW I'M GOING HOME TO KILL MYSELF!!!!"
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Mar 24, 2016 02:46
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The Kingfish posted:I think it's hilarious when queer people kill themselves. Classy.
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Mar 24, 2016 02:48
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The Kingfish posted:*uses they instead* No one said that. However, multiple people in this thread, yourself included, have said the other thing.
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Mar 24, 2016 02:48
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Atasnaya Vaflja posted:Explain to me why trans identities are self constructed and cis identities aren't. All identities are self-constructed to a point. Cisgender identities are constructed subconsciously. DeusExMachinima posted:Serious question: What does "xir" or any other rare pronoun like that mean that he/she/non-binary (the singular they) doesn't already cover? Is there a commonly accepted definition of xir? "I derive pleasure from the attention I receive when others have to use my weird pronouns. I also like to feel victimized."
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Mar 24, 2016 02:51
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Atasnaya Vaflja posted:No one said that. However, multiple people in this thread, yourself included, have said the other thing. People in this thread have said they will use "they." The exact response I gave in the last post. E: realistically speaking, I would agree to call them whatever to avoid conflict and then just not do it. The Kingfish fucked around with this message at 02:54 on Mar 24, 2016 |
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Mar 24, 2016 02:52
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A thought just occurred to me. What, exactly, is even wrong with being a "special snowflake"? What, are some of you proud of being without any sense of individuality? Do you take solace in your dull, bland, existences that are completely identical to so many others? Is that something that people should strive for? Edit: The Kingfish posted:I derive pleasure from the attention I receive when I bitch about being asked to use weird pronouns. I also like to feel victimized. FTFY
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Mar 24, 2016 02:53
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The Kingfish posted:All identities are self-constructed to a point. Cisgender identities are constructed subconsciously. You think there's an inherent difference between cisgender and transgender identities and you believe trans people like to be victimized. Do you really think you're anything other than a transphobe at this point? Explain the exact differences between what it means to be identify as a woman while being trans and what it means to identify as a woman while being cis. Give examples.
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Mar 24, 2016 02:56
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Who What Now posted:A thought just occurred to me. What, exactly, is even wrong with being a "special snowflake"? What, are some of you proud of being without any sense of individuality? Do you take solace in your dull, bland, existences that are completely identical to so many others? Is that something that people should strive for? People should distinguish themselves by their actions. Not by creating their own bland self-indulgent nicknames. It's like the absolute opposite of having an interesting personality.
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Mar 24, 2016 02:56
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The Kingfish posted:People should distinguish themselves by their actions. Not by creating their own bland self-indulgent nicknames. It's like the absolute opposite of having an interesting personality. Do you not believe that gender is an important part of someone's identity?
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Mar 24, 2016 02:58
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Who What Now posted:FTFY I mean, no, if it really is that case that there's nothing new about "xir" versus "they" then I don't give a poo poo. I'd more than anything suspect I'm being trolled and made to be someone's monkey because that's usually how nonsensical poo poo is intended to work. If there's an aspect to the meaning of "xir" that I've missed please enlighten me. TLDR you don't matter enough to deserve something besides he/she/they.
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Mar 24, 2016 03:00
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Frosted Flake posted:How about we agree to disagree. DeusExMachinima posted:Serious question: What does "xir" or any other rare pronoun like that mean that he/she/non-binary (the singular they) doesn't already cover? Is there a commonly accepted definition of xir? Atasnaya Vaflja posted:Explain to me why trans identities are self constructed and cis identities aren't.
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Mar 24, 2016 03:02
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DeusExMachinima posted:I mean, no, if it really is that case that there's nothing new about "xir" versus "they" then I don't give a poo poo. I'd more than anything suspect I'm being trolled and made to be someone's monkey because that's usually how nonsensical poo poo is intended to work. If there's an aspect to the meaning of "xir" that I've missed please enlighten me. I don't think it's in the dictionary and there's no single definition that I'm aware of. Cugel the Clever posted:It's all artificially-constructed bullshit. The answer isn't to declare that you're the opposite kind of bullshit or to construct a whole new kind of bullshit, but to stop wasting all the time you've spent being outraged over bullshit and just be you. Unfortunately society does not accommodate that. You cannot just be you, you must be either male or female and god forbid you fail to do either perfectly because you will catch some poo poo for it. And if people catch wind that you might not want to be either or might want to be something other than what they assume you are, that poo poo might include lynching. With that in mind, a desire to stake a definite alternative is perhaps understandable? OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 03:06 on Mar 24, 2016 |
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Mar 24, 2016 03:03
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OwlFancier posted:I don't think it's in the dictionary and there's no single definition that I'm aware of. Then I seriously don't give a single gently caress. Cisgender, transgender, all these new words describe actual concepts. He/she describe binary genders, they describe "not applicable." Words that describe changing genders aren't nonsense or redundant, as far as I can tell xir or other Tumblr poo poo is.
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Mar 24, 2016 03:05
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DeusExMachinima posted:Then I seriously don't give a single gently caress. Cisgender, transgender, all these new words describe actual concepts. He/she describe genders, they describe "not applicable." Words that describe changing genders aren't nonsense or redundant, as far as I can tell xir or other Tumblr poo poo is. Your name also isn't in the dictionary and doesn't describe anything but it's nice for people to call you by it.
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Mar 24, 2016 03:07
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The Kingfish posted:People should distinguish themselves by their actions. Not by creating their own bland self-indulgent nicknames. It's like the absolute opposite of having an interesting personality. Well you're exceedingly bland and self-indulgent yourself, so obviously your way doesn't work. DeusExMachinima posted:I mean, no, if it really is that case that there's nothing new about "xir" versus "they" then I don't give a poo poo. I'd more than anything suspect I'm being trolled and made to be someone's monkey because that's usually how nonsensical poo poo is intended to work. If there's an aspect to the meaning of "xir" that I've missed please enlighten me. Maybe you should ask someone who actually wants to be called that if you want to find out? I'm not going to the reasons genderqueer people identify as genderqueer on their behalf, I just know it's a trivially easy thing to treat them with the barest minimum amount of human decency. quote:TLDR you don't matter enough to deserve something besides he/she/they. Watch out guys, we got a super edgy poster here! Make sure you're wearing your Kevlar gloves before replying.
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Mar 24, 2016 03:07
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Cugel the Clever posted:Watching them dogpile on the ridiculous strawman of you they've constructed has been hilarious and, unfortunately, only further entrenched my skepticism of such 'activism'. I guess when you've so thoroughly built your identity around your perception of being othered and ostracized, anything other than whole-hearted sycophantism is a capital offense. No one has "dogpiled" on anyone in this thread. No one has compiled any strawman. It's not a "perception" of being othered. Trans people are legitimately treated differently in society and legally. quote:I get the impression that even asking this question may be offensive in the eyes of certain posters... This however, is a brilliant strawman. Bravo for trying. I've already answered the they vs. xir question in the thread earlier; It's a matter of personal comfort and identity for some people. quote:It's all artificially-constructed bullshit. The answer isn't to declare that you're the opposite kind of bullshit or to construct a whole new kind of bullshit, but to stop wasting all the time you've spent being outraged over bullshit and just be you. That wasn't what was being addressed. If you actually read the response I was addressing, you'd see that Kingfish was postulating that trans identities and cis identities were constructed differently and I was asking them to expand upon that belief. Regardless, your response here also completely misses the point unless you believe that transgender is some "opposite kind of bullshit" or a "whole new kind of bullshit" and that trans people are just "outraged over bullshit" and not trying to be themselves.
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Mar 24, 2016 03:08
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Atasnaya Vaflja posted:You think there's an inherent difference between cisgender and transgender identities and you believe trans people like to be victimized. I think gender queer xepeople like to be victimized, yes. I think transsexual people are just normal folk who got unlucky with their genes or whatev. A cis woman acts without considering how to perform her gender because she does so subconsciously, a trans women, depending on how long ago her transition was, might have to consider how best to perform her new gender. It's like how speaking your native language takes zero conscious effort because your brain developed while you were immersed in that language. If you learn another language later in life, then it's words will come less naturally to you and it will be difficult to speak without thinking until you have spent a long time immersed in the new language. The Kingfish fucked around with this message at 03:12 on Mar 24, 2016 |
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Mar 24, 2016 03:08
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Atasnaya Vaflja posted:Do you not believe that gender is an important part of someone's identity? Personally, people need to stop obsessing over the label for their 'identity' and just live the life they want to lead.
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Mar 24, 2016 03:09
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The Kingfish posted:I think gender queer xepeople like to be victimized, yes. How does that not apply to someone who does not want to be either male or female? Cugel the Clever posted:This gets down to the fundamental disconnect between everyone ITT: some people just don't give a poo poo what people call them and are deeply perplexed at those who feel differently. Meanwhile, y'all are interpreting that disconnect as a direct assault on who you are. How often do you have people misidentify you? Does it come up a lot? How much of your life is spent being reminded that other people don't acknowledge who you are? If it isn't a very large portion perhaps you may not appreciate the significance of labels?
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Mar 24, 2016 03:10
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OwlFancier posted:Your name also isn't in the dictionary and doesn't describe anything but it's nice for people to call you by it. My name also isn't a pronoun, but if it was, it still wouldn't be describing a binary set of everyone being named Joe or Jane. Or being named "not applicable." Try again. Who What Now posted:Maybe you should ask someone who actually wants to be called that if you want to find out? I'm not going to the reasons genderqueer people identify as genderqueer on their behalf, I just know it's a trivially easy thing to treat them with the barest minimum amount of human decency. I've never known or met anyone who is trangender or genderfluid IRL who uses anything besides he/she/they or who doesn't also think it's retarded.
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Mar 24, 2016 03:11
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DeusExMachinima posted:Then I seriously don't give a single gently caress. Sweet, got it. You don't give a poo poo. Now do you have anything meaningful you'd like to add to the discussion, or are we just supposed to pat you on the back for being so cool and uncaring? Maybe post a thousand more times about how much you don't care? Cugel the Clever posted:Watching them dogpile on the ridiculous strawman of you they've constructed has been hilarious and, unfortunately, only further entrenched my skepticism of such 'activism'. I guess when you've so thoroughly built your identity around your perception of being othered and ostracized, anything other than whole-hearted sycophantism is a capital offense. Oh noooooooooo. Whatever will be done without the oh so important support of something awful forums poster Cugel the Clever? Trans acceptance needed his approval so very, very badly to succeed.
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Mar 24, 2016 03:11
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OwlFancier posted:How does that not apply to someone who does not want to be either male or female? How does what not apply?
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Mar 24, 2016 03:11
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The Kingfish posted:I think gender queer xepeople like to be victimized, yes. No one likes to be victimized, and that is a very fundamental flaw that you don't understand. That's not what I asked. That is a difference in performance of gender, not a difference in what gender means. Cugel the Clever posted:This gets down to the fundamental disconnect between everyone ITT: some people just don't give a poo poo what people call them and are deeply perplexed at those who feel differently. Meanwhile, y'all are interpreting that disconnect as a direct assault on who you are. It's easy to not give a poo poo or to stop worrying about labels and identities when you're not a trans person. That's the problem. You have the ability right now to not care. Trans people do not. We don't get to "just" live our lives. We have to be aware of our identities. We cannot stop worrying. We cannot just stop giving a poo poo. It could mean becoming a social pariah or worse.
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Mar 24, 2016 03:12
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Who What Now posted:Sweet, got it. You don't give a poo poo. Now do you have anything meaningful you'd like to add to the discussion, or are we just supposed to pat you on the back for being so cool and uncaring? Maybe post a thousand more times about how much you don't care. Is this a tacit admission you can't think of any meaning for xir that isn't already covered by singular they?
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Mar 24, 2016 03:12
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DeusExMachinima posted:My name also isn't a pronoun, but if it was, it still wouldn't be describing a binary set of everyone being named Joe or Jane. Or being named "not applicable." Try again. It is a thing used to identify you, as is a pronoun. When you speak to another human being you would use their preferred identifier, or name, in direct address, it is not a difficult leap to also do so in indirect address. The Kingfish posted:How does what not apply? What is the difference between what you described as being the experience of cis and trans people and those who identify as nonbinary?
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Mar 24, 2016 03:13
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DeusExMachinima posted:I've never known or met anyone who is trangender or genderfluid IRL who uses anything besides he/she/they or who doesn't also think it's retarded. So you've never been asked to do it, but boy howdy are you upset that someone, somewhere, might be asking someone who isn't you to use a pronoun you don't like.
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Mar 24, 2016 03:13
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DeusExMachinima posted:Is this a tacit admission you can't think of any meaning for xir that isn't already covered by singular they? It's an admission that I won't speak for genderqueer people. You know, like I said before. So are you illiterate, or just pretending to be?
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Mar 24, 2016 03:14
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DeusExMachinima posted:Is this a tacit admission you can't think of any meaning for xir that isn't already covered by singular they? What would you do if your friend told you they were on a gluten-free diet because they had a gluten sensitivity (not celiacs)?
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Mar 24, 2016 03:15
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Who What Now posted:So you've never been asked to do it, but boy howdy are you upset that someone, somewhere, might be asking someone who isn't you to use a pronoun you don't like. I'm sure not literally everyone on the internet is upset by your posting. What meaning does xir have that they doesn't? The gently caress even does xir, xer, etc etc mean? I'm 100% serious when I ask and nobody has yet to give me an actual answer, not just on these forums. Horking Delight posted:What would you do if your friend told you they were on a gluten-free diet because they had a gluten sensitivity (not celiacs)? Kill them.
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Mar 24, 2016 03:16
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Atasnaya Vaflja posted:No one likes to be victimized, and that is a very fundamental flaw that you don't understand. You asked for a difference in how cis and trans people identity and that's exactly what I gave you. There is no gender without performance so I don't really know what you think you are asking.
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Mar 24, 2016 03:16
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DeusExMachinima posted:I'm sure not literally everyone on the internet is upset by your posting. What meaning does xir have that they doesn't? The gently caress even does xir, xer, etc etc mean? I'm 100% serious when I ask and nobody has yet to give me an actual answer, not just on these forums. As has been pointed out it is probable that that meaning would depend on the individual as that is sort of the point of nonbinary gender, there is a lot of potential variety.
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Mar 24, 2016 03:18
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Who What Now posted:A thought just occurred to me. What, exactly, is even wrong with being a "special snowflake"? What, are some of you proud of being without any sense of individuality? Do you take solace in your dull, bland, existences that are completely identical to so many others? Is that something that people should strive for? Human beings have a natural tendancy towards egotism, to believe that they are "more special" than the average person. It should not be encouraged.
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Mar 24, 2016 03:18
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In this thread, non-binary people have been called special snowflakes and retarded, and trans people in general have basically been told to stop caring, been told that they just like to act victimized, they've got a persecution complex, and they should just chill out w/r/t suicidal trends. I'm not surprised that there aren't (m)any of us coming in here to defend ourselves/explain our side when the other side is acting in poor faith like that.
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Mar 24, 2016 03:18
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Sucrose posted:Human beings have a natural tendancy towards egotism, to believe that they are "more special" than the average person. It should not be encouraged. I think most would probably be quite happy with equal to the average person, personally.
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Mar 24, 2016 03:19
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OwlFancier posted:What is the difference between what you described as being the experience of cis and trans people and those who identify as nonbinary? Trans people adopt the performance of the gender that is typically assigned to the body that they feel they should have. Non binary people adopt the performance of a gender which they create because of whatever reason. They do not perform the same way others do because they do not have a conception of a "correct" performance of their gender the way that cis and trans people do. Xepeople adopt the performance of a gender which they create and have also come up with a cute name for it to draw attention to the fact that they are different from everybody else.
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Mar 24, 2016 03:26
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