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The Kingfish posted:Trans people adopt the performance of the gender that is typically assigned to the body that they feel they should have. That's not really how it works, I think.
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Mar 24, 2016 03:28
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The Kingfish posted:Some messed up people love to feel victimized because it provides a great excuse to not make anything out of their lives. No they don't. That's a lie made up by bigots to try and justify their bigotry. You ever notice how it's always minorities or abuse victims who are called professional victims or told that they like to feel victimized? In that case someone could argue that butch women aren't "women" in the same way that feminine women are, which is absolutely ridiculous.
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Mar 24, 2016 03:28
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The Kingfish posted:I think gender queer xepeople like to be victimized, yes. I think transsexual people are just normal folk. Ha. You should talk to some women struggling to thread the needle of being respected in the business world while not being reduced to a bitch or harpy. You should talk about the day that women found out that they were a woman, and not just one of the guys. Or the many men who honestly need a football player to sell them yogurt in a black container to convince them it's not gay. Or the men who are killing themselves because they don't want to go to the hospital because they're weak. Talk to the men who were screamed at and beat up because they thought She-ra is cool. You should talk to people who had to go through years of speech therapy to be understood in their native language, and who have had to engage in accent removal theory to be taken seriously. Or just consider the every day normal person who chooses their words carefully because they are well aware of the various landmines that can offend or alienate people. We all have to put varying levels of thought into being part of society. No one naturally lives in it, otherwise we'd not even have the idea of childhood in the first place (which is itself a recent idea).
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Mar 24, 2016 03:28
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Atasnaya Vaflja posted:In that case someone could argue that butch women aren't "women" in the same way that feminine women are, which is absolutely ridiculous. No you couldn't, doofus. E:^ and yet none of those examples have any barring on my point- that cis and trans women experience and perform their identities in different ways. The Kingfish fucked around with this message at 03:38 on Mar 24, 2016 |
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Mar 24, 2016 03:29
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DeusExMachinima posted:I'm sure not literally everyone on the internet is upset by your posting. What meaning does xir have that they doesn't? The gently caress even does xir, xer, etc etc mean? I'm 100% serious when I ask and nobody has yet to give me an actual answer, not just on these forums. Who What Now posted:Maybe you should ask someone who actually wants to be called that if you want to find out? I know it's a novel principal, but maybe reach just slightly outside of your comfort zone for once in your life if you aren't satisfied with the answers you're getting. Or you can keep throwing tantrums that people, who again are not people you know, talk to, or have every even interacted with in your life, are possibly using a word that inexplicably makes you poo poo your pants. The Kingfish posted:Some messed up people love to feel victimized because it provides a great excuse to not make anything out of their lives. That would certainly explain why you're trying as hard as you are to be a victim here. Sucrose posted:Human beings have a natural tendancy towards egotism, to believe that they are "more special" than the average person. It should not be encouraged. Anything that makes people act less like you should always be encouraged as much as humanely possible.
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Mar 24, 2016 03:30
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The Kingfish posted:No you couldn't, doofus. If it's all about "performance" like you said then yes you could. If it's all about performance and perception like you've put it down to multiple times now, people absolutely could (and have) argue it. What is the "performance" of "woman" as a gender?
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Mar 24, 2016 03:31
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Who What Now posted:That would certainly explain why you're trying as hard as you are to be a victim here. Atasnaya Vaflja posted:If it's all about "performance" like you said then yes you could. If it's all about performance and perception like you've put it down to multiple times now, people absolutely could (and have) argue it. I'm not here educate you. Why don't you make a fricken effort post if you wanna debate and discuss?
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Mar 24, 2016 03:35
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Who What Now posted:I know it's a novel principal, but maybe reach just slightly outside of your comfort zone for once in your life if you aren't satisfied with the answers you're getting. Or you can keep throwing tantrums that people, who again are not people you know, talk to, or have every even interacted with in your life, are possibly using a word that inexplicably makes you poo poo your pants. Like I said, in my experience no one I've met or knew cared. But righteous mockery is the reason the internet was invented you know.  If you can't give me an answer, there's no point in continuing anyway.
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Mar 24, 2016 03:36
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This poster loves police brutality, but only when its against minorities!
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DeusExMachinima posted:Like I said, in my experience no one I've met or knew cared. But righteous mockery is the reason the internet was invented you know. You've been given the answer "ask the person using it" multiple times now.
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Mar 24, 2016 03:37
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The Kingfish posted:I don't want to be a victim, I think that is bad. You've spent multiple pages willing to stand on this issue, but now that I've asked you to dissect it you bullheadedly refuse to. If you can't defend your own beliefs when challenged, maybe there's a problem with those beliefs.
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Mar 24, 2016 03:39
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The Kingfish posted:I don't want to be a victim, I think that is bad. Then why are you arguing so hard that making a slightly different sound with your mouth is some sort of impossible burden? DeusExMachinima posted:If you can't give me an answer, there's no point in continuing anyway. So I take it that you won't be asking a genderqueer person, then? No, of course not, why actually try and understand something and possibly lose one of the last things your allowed to poo poo on and hate and not feel bad about it? Gotta have someone beneath you to feel good about yourself, after all.
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Mar 24, 2016 03:40
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The Kingfish posted:No you couldn't, doofus. My point is that these are not outliers or special circumstances at all. Part of the reason why Gamergate existed is because men found a way to express masculinity in a non traditional way, and as it's become less of a boy's club their power and security within their tangled up gender role seems to be under attack. The other point is that if you've even read a little bit of say, Judy Blume, that womanhood is not something that comes naturally to most women without the history of gender policing and essentialism that becomes clear during puberty. You on one hand recognize society's hand in shaping its members, but fail to recognize the process of individuation everyone still must go through to be more than a cog in society's machine.
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Mar 24, 2016 03:41
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Who What Now posted:Then why are you arguing so hard that making a slightly different sound with your mouth is some sort of impossible burden? I'm not saying that it's difficult though? It would be easy for me to do. I could do it, but I wouldn't because I think it's stupid. E: it would be trivially easy for me to do. I am extremely good at making sounds with my mouth, and the sounds necessary probably aren't even that hard. I say probably because I have no idea how to pronounce "xe" The Kingfish fucked around with this message at 03:47 on Mar 24, 2016 |
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Mar 24, 2016 03:43
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The Kingfish posted:I'm not saying that it's difficult though? It would be easy for me to do. I could do it, but I wouldn't because I think it's stupid. It's not even an inconvenience for you, like some of the others in the thread claimed, you just refuse because you're stubborn. Question for everyone who refuses to use "new" pronouns because they're an abomination and change to the English language: Do you use the words "twitter," "tweet," "google," "wikipedia," etc.?
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Mar 24, 2016 03:46
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The Kingfish posted:I'm not saying that it's difficult though? It would be easy for me to do. I could do it, but I wouldn't because I think it's stupid. Ok, it's been established that you're an rear end in a top hat. Do you have anything of value to add, or do you just want to crow about how you think genderqueer people don't deserve to be treated as human beings and how cool this makes you?
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Mar 24, 2016 03:46
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Atasnaya Vaflja posted:It's not even an inconvenience for you, like some of the others in the thread claimed, you just refuse because you're stubborn. Those words mean new things, xe means nothing.
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Mar 24, 2016 03:49
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The Kingfish posted:Those words mean new things, xe means nothing. I've already posited a question for you that you haven't answered. Please do not skip questions. You will not receive full credit. (No pronoun means anything different from any other pronoun.)
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Mar 24, 2016 03:50
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Atasnaya Vaflja posted:I've already posited a question for you that you haven't answered. Please do not skip questions. You will not receive full credit. I already told you that if you want to make a point you can post it yourself without this Socratic bullshit.
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Mar 24, 2016 03:53
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The Kingfish posted:Those words mean new things, xe means nothing. It probably means quite a lot to the person requesting you to use it.
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Mar 24, 2016 03:58
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The Kingfish posted:I already told you that if you want to make a point you can post it yourself without this Socratic bullshit. That's not how it works. We're discussing gender identity in this thread, it's relevant to this thread. You either answer it, admit that you cannot, or you weasel out of it for everyone to see, but you don't get to act high and mighty about it while doing so. You've already proven that you don't know the first thing about trans experiences. I don't expect you to, because you aren't trans. That's okay. You need to stop acting like you do, however. Point blank.
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Mar 24, 2016 03:58
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Atasnaya Vaflja posted:I've already posited a question for you that you haven't answered. Please do not skip questions. You will not receive full credit. What's the point? People like kingfish, sucrose, DeusEx, and Frosted Flake aren't interested in a discussion. They don't actually want to understand why genderqueer people think or feel the way they do. They just want a group they can use as their metaphorical punching bag, one that they aren't related to or know anyone in so they don't have to feel bad and is also too small and marginalized to fight back. That's all. They're small people who need someone even smaller to pick on in order to feel big. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 24, 2016 04:00
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Atasnaya Vaflja posted:I've already posited a question for you that you haven't answered. Please do not skip questions. You will not receive full credit. I'm on your side here but that last part is not true. Obviously "I" and "you" in the sentence I've written is different. "Thou" and "you" had different connotations, and there's a reason no one is seriously suggesting "it" for trans people. Yes, the same pronoun group can be reused in the same sentence as in "He gave it to him", but there is definitely a different meaning in "he gave it to her", especially if "him" and "her" are both reasonable referents in the current conversation. (And that last one shows one of the few flaws of singular they, but it's worth it.) foobardog fucked around with this message at 04:03 on Mar 24, 2016 |
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Mar 24, 2016 04:01
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foobardog posted:I'm on your side here but that last part is not true. Obviously "I" and "you" in the sentence I've written is different. "Thou" and "you" had different connotations, and there's a reason no one is seriously suggesting "it" for trans people. Fair enough. I meant out of any context in a vague sense, but even then it's a very poor point and you're right to pick it out. e: I sound weirdly "hm yes humble" in this post but I'm just distracted. I made a bad aside and you're right, is what I mean. les enfants Terrific! fucked around with this message at 04:07 on Mar 24, 2016 |
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Mar 24, 2016 04:05
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Atasnaya Vaflja posted:Fair enough. I meant out of any context in a vague sense, but even then it's a very poor point and you're right to pick it out. Yeah, there's a lot of things in English that don't seem to have a well defined meaning, but are vital to be considered a fluent speaker. I don't envy anyone trying to understand articles like "a" and "the" coming from a language that doesn't have them.
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Mar 24, 2016 04:09
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Atasnaya Vaflja posted:e: I sound weirdly "hm yes humble" in this post but I'm just distracted. I made a bad aside and you're right, is what I mean. Nah, don't worry about it, debates often get so awful because people can't let themselves concede any ground.
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Mar 24, 2016 04:11
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Atasnaya Vaflja posted:Explain to me why trans identities are self constructed and cis identities aren't. Cis identities are taught to individuals by society, not the other way around quote:It's strange how multiple people, including trans people, are telling you that your arguments are inherently bigoted and transphobic, but you still don't see any reason to reflect on that. You instead decide to double down on your ideas. It's strange that trans ethics seem grounded in respecting and tolerating that other people have different views, yet all I ever see is a constant stream of vitriol and brutal name calling and accusing people of being full of hatred because they hold relatively traditional views on gender. Calling people "stupid loving hate filled bigots who are so condescending and wrong" because they disagree with your gender politics seems rather abusive and oppressive. I would never call a homosexual or a transperson a "stupid retarded human being with abhorrent ideas literally the same as Hitler" just because I disagree with their views, why is it acceptable for them to rain down blows on me and assault my character for asking questions or criticizing ideas? Not only is it poor taste and without class, not only is it arguable unethical, but this approach is ineffective and counter productive because it only serves to push away people and put them on the defensive, next thing you know you have people like Donald Trump rising in popularity because they are represent a defense against this kind of cultural warfare. You catch more flies with honey, my friends
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Mar 24, 2016 04:15
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Unfortunately no amount of honey seems to work on the willingly ignorant. I've had a pretty big argument before that civility is paramount when it comes to explaining the not-immediately-intuitive complexities of gender identity to people, but I am also beginning to see why people often revert to screaming obscenities because my god is your poo poo tiresome.
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Mar 24, 2016 04:21
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No one did that at all in this thread. It's actually been the complete opposite with multiple people posting nasty opinions and things toward trans people. The "rudest" thing anyone's said in response is pointed out that those things are bigoted. You're also utilizing something known as respectability politics. Minorities do not have to be likable in order to "deserve" respect and human rights. We do not have to be polite and model minorities in order to be deemed "acceptable" as human beings. That's a very poor model of society to lean back on. A lot of people in minorities may be frustrated because we deal with oppression and societal abuse and pressure and then are told we need to be grateful, need to just forget about it, or need to forget about it. And then after we've been battered down with constant condescension like that, people come in and tell us that we should just be nicer. This cycle is now happening in this very thread. I have been no less curt than anyone else in this thread. Trans and non-binary people have been called derogatory names, been told we should just chill out, been told we're playing at being victims, been told that we are just "being oversensitive" about a high risk of suicide, and now you are telling us (more specifically me) that by meeting those responses we're "raining down blows" and "assaulting their characters" and that we've been arguably unethical. Do you not see the issue with that? Or the double standard?
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Mar 24, 2016 04:24
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Commie NedFlanders posted:Calling people "stupid loving hate filled bigots who are so condescending and wrong" because they disagree with your gender politics seems rather abusive and oppressive. Oh, you think you're being abused and oppressed? Are you going to cry yourself to sleep tonight? Are you going to go through your day tomorrow afraid that someone from this thread is going to physically assault you unawares? Are you going to give up on exercising some of your rights for fear that doing so is going to land you in the hospital or worse? No?! Well gee, it sure is strange that for someone who believes so strongly about the sanctity of certain words you sure don't seem to have any problem grossly misusing the words "abusive" and "oppressive"! It's almost like you have no idea what those words mean because you've lived a life of privilege and shelter and you're only using them to try blindly ape the arguments you've seen but never taken the time to properly think about and understand. Edit: ^^^^^^^^^^^ To be fair I have been a huge rear end in a top hat ITT, but that's only because: OwlFancier posted:Unfortunately no amount of honey seems to work on the willingly ignorant. I've had a pretty big argument before that civility is paramount when it comes to explaining the not-immediately-intuitive complexities of gender identity to people, but I am also beginning to see why people often revert to screaming obscenities because my god is your poo poo tiresome. Who What Now fucked around with this message at 04:32 on Mar 24, 2016 |
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Mar 24, 2016 04:28
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I've had a long, bad day today and if I wanted to be lovely and mean I absolutely could be but I don't feel like that would be at all productive. It's incredibly frustrating to be told "you catch more flies with honey :')" when this entire thread has been a run around of herding cats. People on the other side have been demanding answers for a question that had already answered twice (perhaps more) while simultaneously outright ignoring or refusing to answer things themselves. They get wrung out of shape being told that their perceptions and beliefs are transphobic, but have no problem being transphobic and using derogatory language. It's funny.
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Mar 24, 2016 04:38
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"Well I was considering treating x racial/sexual/gender/religious minority with respect until those drat S J W's screeched at me and showed their true colors as the real bigots" is pretty much the last resort of every -phobe that has run out of talking points and wants you to think you've turned them towards a position they've already accepted in an attempt to guilt trip you.
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Mar 24, 2016 04:39
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Deified Data posted:"Well I was considering treating x racial/sexual/gender/religious minority with respect until those drat S J W's screeched at me and showed their true colors as the real bigots" is pretty much the last resort of every -phobe that has run out of talking points and wants you to think you've turned them towards a position they've already accepted in an attempt to guilt trip you. If someone ever claims they stopped being an ally or they've questioned their allyship because they saw [x] number of [minority] that was just so out of line! They were never an ally to begin with and their opinion can be safely dismissed. Who What Now posted:Edit: I absolutely don't blame you or anyone else who got/gets that way because it's incredible exhausting and complete bullshit. This entire thread is an exercise in privilege, as much as that'll ruffle feathers. Certain people are allowed to be raucous. Other people can't, because we aren't representing our demographic very well and that's a bad way to get support, honey :) edit: If someone's support of an entire demographic hinges on how people act on a forum post, that says more about them than anything else.
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Mar 24, 2016 04:45
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Atasnaya Vaflja posted:If someone ever claims they stopped being an ally or they've questioned their allyship because they saw [x] number of [minority] that was just so out of line! They were never an ally to begin with and their opinion can be safely dismissed. I'm not even Trans* or Genderqueer myself and this poo poo drives me up the loving wall, I can only imagine how much worse it is for you.
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Mar 24, 2016 04:56
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DeusExMachinima posted:What meaning does xir have that they doesn't? The gently caress even does xir, xer, etc etc mean? I'm 100% serious when I ask and nobody has yet to give me an actual answer, not just on these forums. This may have been covered in various pages,, but here's my take: - "They" comes across as a tad impersonal in some ways, which may have driven the search for a Bonus Pronoun. - The use of xir etc, relatedly, at present places a particular emphasis on "I wish to not be a shithead and acknowledge the uncomfortable position of those few people who like the novel third-person pronoun". There are probably horrid ways of putting this that involve words like "special snowflake" or more contemptuous ones. I have no particular opinion on the topic of introducing a new third-person singular into the language to replace the very impromptu singular-they, although I'd be quite willing to politely use one if requested. I do have strong feelings about the need for a second-person plural, but "y'all" clearly fills that niche. 
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Mar 24, 2016 04:57
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GreyjoyBastard posted:This may have been covered in various pages,, but here's my take: This is about right and worded pretty well. Xe/xir etc. generally come from a place of finding they impersonal like stated, just not particularly identifying with it, finding it othering, or (perhaps ironically for some people in this thread) from a place of language prescriptivism where people feel that a singular they is inappropriate and there should just be a proper third person pronoun instated. Y'all is the ultimate pronoun. Some folks would have us believe it's "you'uns" but I vehemently deny its existence.
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Mar 24, 2016 05:11
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Who What Now posted:Oh, you think you're being abused and oppressed? Are you going to cry yourself to sleep tonight? Are you going to go through your day tomorrow afraid that someone from this thread is going to physically assault you unawares? Are you going to give up on exercising some of your rights for fear that doing so is going to land you in the hospital or worse? No?! Why would you ask someone a wall of questions only to answer them yourself, all in the name of inclusivity and overcoming prejudice and discrimination? quote:Well gee, it sure is strange that for someone who believes so strongly about the sanctity of certain words you sure don't seem to have any problem grossly misusing the words "abusive" and "oppressive"! It's almost like you have no idea what those words mean because you've lived a life of privilege and shelter and you're only using them to try blindly ape the arguments you've seen but never taken the time to properly think about and understand. So you are here to champion the idea that people should not impose their prejudices on people, should be courteous to others, and be open minded to the fact that other people may have different life experiences.....and you choose to do that by lecturing someone you have never met about how they are too privileged and sheltered to have valid opinions? In your mind, did you assume that I'm a wealthy white male? lol good job proving your point bud
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Mar 24, 2016 05:14
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Commie NedFlanders posted:So you are here to champion the idea that people should not impose their prejudices on people, should be courteous to others, and be open minded to the fact that other people may have different life experiences.....and you choose to do that by lecturing someone you have never met about how they are too privileged and sheltered to have valid opinions? You're certainly displaying rather a lot of it ITT. Like I don't much care for the notion of privilege as used but it's virtually textbook so I really can't object. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 05:18 on Mar 24, 2016 |
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Mar 24, 2016 05:16
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Who What Now posted:Oh, you think you're being abused and oppressed? Are you going to cry yourself to sleep tonight? Are you going to go through your day tomorrow afraid that someone from this thread is going to physically assault you unawares? Are you going to give up on exercising some of your rights for fear that doing so is going to land you in the hospital or worse? No?! And on a less physical note, have you had a job offer and then seriously had to think "poo poo, I'd better tell my employer about my genital configuration, just in case they freak out and fire me after I've moved halfway around the world". Do you seriously think "poo poo, there's large sections of the world where my existence is literally criminalised and I can't visit". Do you get very nervous when you have to use public toilets - even if you live in a state that protects your rights to use them? Having people who are in this situation tell you that you're being an rear end in a top hat does not constitute oppression.
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Mar 24, 2016 05:19
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Deified Data posted:"Well I was considering treating x racial/sexual/gender/religious minority with respect until those drat S J W's screeched at me and showed their true colors as the real bigots" is pretty much the last resort of every -phobe that has run out of talking points and wants you to think you've turned them towards a position they've already accepted in an attempt to guilt trip you. i may disagree with some aspects of gender politics but i do agree with the basic idea that people should treat each other with respect and dignity and unfortunately the kind of behaviors demonstrated in this thread have become the public image of the movement in the minds of people who are unfamiliar with it. as someone who wants to reduce bullying and harassment, it pains me to see this because you guys are making the politics of tolerance absolutely intolerable
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Mar 24, 2016 05:25
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Don't listen to SulphuricAsshole, she's just being annoying. (Yes, she claims to be male on her profile, but I've decided she's female. I hope that doesn't bother her.)
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Mar 24, 2016 05:26
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