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jm20 posted:At the very least you can say he is a womanizer and exploits women who may not be in the most sound state of mind. Fortunately for him this is not illegal, not even in Canadia. jm20 posted:Where there's smoke there is fire. Do you work for Rolling Stone?
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Mar 24, 2016 18:53
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CountingCrows posted:I'm always confused with cases like this because the judge literally said that he must acquit due to reasonable doubt. I don't disagree, but then it begs the question, in any case like this where it's primarily he said/she said, isn't it basically impossible to remove reasonable doubt? Does this judge ever convict in this case regardless of the witnesses perceived reliability? The accusers lied under oath about very important things, like the frequency of talking with other victims, how closely they were following allegations, sending flirtatious emails and sexual meet ups months later, etc. The defence had evidence that they lied. Once you damage credibility to that degree, a witness is pretty much screwed. Monaghan fucked around with this message at 19:01 on Mar 24, 2016 |
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Mar 24, 2016 18:57
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odiv posted:Also, gently caress Ghomeshi. Hopefully women stop doing this, it's only making the problem worse. Dear god I hope he doesn't breed.
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Mar 24, 2016 19:01
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Legit Businessman fucked around with this message at 16:53 on Sep 9, 2022 |
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Mar 24, 2016 19:08
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Internaut! posted:Fortunately for him this is not illegal, not even in Canadia. In this scenario there were 4 accusers that went on record in a criminal proceeding against Ghomeshi, and I lost count of exactly how many others who accused him but did not wish to proceed in the case. A notable accuser who did not go on the record was a lawyer, not sure if you are aware of that truth bomb. Though I do see the similarities with a case with multiple physical people making an allegation vs a fabricated story about a fictional person, good catch.
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Mar 24, 2016 19:08
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Monaghan posted:The accusers lied under oath about very important things, like the frequency of talking with other victims, how closely they were following allegations, sending flirtatious emails and sexual meet ups months later, etc. The defence had evidence that they lied. Once you damage credibility to that degree, a witness is pretty much screwed. On twitter this is what's called "an offense to women" and "an insult to survivors". Apparently
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Mar 24, 2016 19:11
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The Ghomeshi trial is a great example of a situation where contemporary liberal ethics breakdown in spectacular fashion. Makes me think of perfectly healthy people who desperately want surgeons to remove their arms or legs, or those bizarre stories you hear about folks going on the internet looking for someone to cook and eat them alive. Or, to use a much less extreme example, the numerous anecdotes one hears about women waking up the day after they were raped and cooking their rapist breakfast. We very much want the human brain to produce a unitary, rational and consistent illusion of consciousness, and it can be quite upsetting or frustrating when the brain refuses to play ball and instead behaves in ways that make no god damned sense at all.
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Mar 24, 2016 19:12
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OK now my wall is just drowning in accusations of the justice system being broken and 'I believe survivors!' platitudes. It's certainly a complicated situation; how do we best treat sexual assault accusations in such a manner as to not dissuade victims from coming forward, while preserving the fundamental principle of 'reasonable doubt'? The very nature of the crime makes it difficult to prosecute.
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Mar 24, 2016 19:19
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Legit Businessman fucked around with this message at 16:53 on Sep 9, 2022 |
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Mar 24, 2016 19:20
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A code of ethics for lawyers in sexual assault cases is a good start. I'm not talking about this case though. It doesn't seem like Ghomeshi's lawyer was too bad here.
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Mar 24, 2016 19:22
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Legit Businessman fucked around with this message at 16:53 on Sep 9, 2022 |
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Mar 24, 2016 19:23
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I'd be perfectly fine with judges who do rape cases having to take special training regarding sexual assault cases. there have been times in which defence lawyers have tried to slip in evidence regarding the complainant's sexual history. There's also been issues regarding them discrediting people by going after every minute detail of the crime, which could re-traumatize. But really, I think it's incumbent on judges to learn about this stuff in order so they can tell defence lawyers to knock it off. Somebody fucked around with this message at 17:11 on Sep 9, 2022 |
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Mar 24, 2016 19:24
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JVNO posted:OK now my wall is just drowning in accusations of the justice system being broken and 'I believe survivors!' platitudes. Ghomeshi is a scumbag, but it would probably have helped if at least one of the prosecution's witnesses didn't borderline perjure themselves on the stand.
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Mar 24, 2016 19:27
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People, lawyers even, have been making the case of Henein whacking the victim[s].
Somebody fucked around with this message at 17:11 on Sep 9, 2022 |
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Mar 24, 2016 19:28
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JVNO posted:OK now my wall is just drowning in accusations of the justice system being broken and 'I believe survivors!' platitudes. You weren't kidding, what a poo poo show: quote:If only the assumption were actually that sexual assault complainants were always truthful. Evidently it is the reverse. #IBelieveSurvivors Yep not like we have recent examples of why this is a bad idea.
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Mar 24, 2016 19:28
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I don't remember why I had to read it, but pretty much the bit right at the start of this: http://digitalcommons.osgoode.yorku.ca/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2729&context=ohlj "FOUR MEN ON ONE WOMAN TIMES TWO… AND AN INTRODUCTION" Stuff like this goes way too far. I don't know how you draw a more reasonable line, but if this is what a complainant can expect to be faced with the administration of justice is failed due to overly onerous punishment for an accuser preventing victims from coming forward and thus rapists being able to continue to operate and victimize others. To be clear, the Ghomeshi case does not appear to be that at all. e: or maybe it is? I honestly got the impression that these women were straight up lying on the stand / to police and were caught out. Somebody fucked around with this message at 17:12 on Sep 9, 2022 |
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Mar 24, 2016 19:29
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I'm not sure we can design a system involving human beings that wouldn't have fairly serious flaws when it comes to prosecuting a situation like this one. I don't even think our liberal sensibilities are particularly well suited to deal with the implications of sadism or masochism, never mind the legal difficulties of prosecuting a case where these behaviors play a central role. I certainly can't think of a solution for how to handle cases like this, other than the obvious platitudes about reducing the stigma and sexism often lobbied against survivors.
Somebody fucked around with this message at 17:12 on Sep 9, 2022 |
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Mar 24, 2016 19:32
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PT6A posted:Yes, I'm aware of that. There's: There's no difference in law between the verdicts of acquittal; the charges are dismissed and you face no further penalties or restrictions in law.
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Mar 24, 2016 19:34
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Helsing posted:I'm not sure we can design a system involving human beings that wouldn't have fairly serious flaws when it comes to prosecuting a situation like this one. I don't even think our liberal sensibilities are particularly well suited to deal with the implications of sadism or masochism, never mind the legal difficulties of prosecuting a case where these behaviors play a central role. I certainly can't think of a solution for how to handle cases like this, other than the obvious platitudes about reducing the stigma and sexism often lobbied against survivors. Tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. I think the judge made it pretty clear.
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Mar 24, 2016 19:35
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Jordan7hm posted:
Ghomeshi's shady reputation extends far beyond the three complainants in the current case. Whether he has straight up sexually assaulted or raped people is unclear, but his reputation belies a person concerned with boundaries and consent.
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Mar 24, 2016 19:37
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Helsing posted:The Ghomeshi trial is a great example of a situation where contemporary liberal ethics breakdown in spectacular fashion. Makes me think of perfectly healthy people who desperately want surgeons to remove their arms or legs, or those bizarre stories you hear about folks going on the internet looking for someone to cook and eat them alive. Or, to use a much less extreme example, the numerous anecdotes one hears about women waking up the day after they were raped and cooking their rapist breakfast. o yeah tell me more john ralston saul
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Mar 24, 2016 19:39
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Jordan7hm posted:I honestly got the impression that these women were straight up lying on the stand / to police and were caught out. They were and that's why so many people are going nuts, as someone else mentioned they can't reconcile their feelings about these sorts of cases in general with the actual context. I don't see how any code of ethics would've helped here either. Henein was surgical in her cross examination and very careful to avoid "victim blaming". What she did was expose lies and holes in the statements they willingly made to the police and even on the stand. The third witness finally fessed up to a major issue in her own testimony - having a consensual sex act later on - only after seeing what happened to the first two witnesses.
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Mar 24, 2016 19:39
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Legit Businessman fucked around with this message at 16:53 on Sep 9, 2022 |
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Mar 24, 2016 19:40
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So can big ears teddy now get repeated sued in civil court?
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Mar 24, 2016 19:41
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I know that runs afoul of the criminal code (I'm a lawyer here) but I believe that there's been cases where defence lawyers have put it in there, even though they know it's not allowed to sow doubt it the judge's mind. This is rare though, I admit. I think there's a video from 1999 from Ghomeshi's defence lawyer admitting to doing this. As for the latter, I guess "knock it off" wouldn't be the best way to go about it, but I think that judges should get training regarding that a traumatic sexual assault case, that victims don't always remember every detail. If judges in their written decisions, maybe emphasized this fact, then defence lawyers would come to realize that that method of cross examination doesn't fly. Cultural Imperial posted:So can big ears teddy now get repeated sued in civil court? no generally speaking an action in civil court has to happen within two years of the alleged incident. Somebody fucked around with this message at 17:12 on Sep 9, 2022 |
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Mar 24, 2016 19:43
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odiv posted:I'm seeing the former quote from multiple places now. Can you link a source that it's a misquote?  The person who initially tweeted it deleted it, there doesn't seem to be another primary sourcing, and the alternative (more reasonable) quote actually appears in the ruling.
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Mar 24, 2016 19:45
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The quote from the ruling that matches it a bit more closely than "Courts must guard against applying false stereotypes concerning the expected conduct of complainants" seems to be: "However, the twists and turns of the complainants' evidence in this trial illustrate the need to be vigilant in avoiding the equally dangerous false assumption that sexual assault complainants are always truthful." Here's a tweet that has the other wording. Maybe it was verbal? https://twitter.com/anne_theriault/status/713027514281500672
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Mar 24, 2016 19:51
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The ontario sunshine list is out. Take a look at how much money the pan am games executives made off with. 5 executives cleared over a half million dollars each. Crazy.
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Mar 24, 2016 19:52
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Pinterest Mom posted:
That fake quote has stirred up some serious poo poo on my Facebook.
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Mar 24, 2016 19:54
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The actual quote from the ruling is not far off, honestly. Also, you sure it's fake? I'd really like to find out for sure one way or the other.
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Mar 24, 2016 19:55
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Why does everyone care so much about this gongshow trial?
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Mar 24, 2016 19:55
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cowofwar posted:Why does everyone care so much about this gongshow trial? A lot of people are really tired of watching rapists go free.
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Mar 24, 2016 20:02
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cowofwar posted:Why does everyone care so much about this gongshow trial? SJWs were pretty gleeful when someone as high profile as ghomeshi got charged.
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Mar 24, 2016 20:06
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THC posted:A lot of people are really tired of watching rapists go free.
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Mar 24, 2016 20:06
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Will the judge's decision be published?
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Mar 24, 2016 20:08
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cowofwar posted:If he was found guilty would it have had any impact? It's not a supreme court hearing and it really doesn't involve the legislative branch of government. A lot of social media activism relating to it but it's hardly going to have an effect on sexual assault. Conversely however, him being found not guilty will have an chilling effect on women who've been assaulted and are deciding whether or not to go to the police.
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Mar 24, 2016 20:09
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HappyHippo posted:Will the judge's decision be published? https://www.canlii.org/en/on/oncj/doc/2016/2016oncj155/2016oncj155.html?searchUrlHash=AAAAAQAIZ2hvbWVzaGkAAAAAAQ&resultIndex=1 ??
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Mar 24, 2016 20:10
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HappyHippo posted:Will the judge's decision be published? http://www.canlii.org/en/on/oncj/doc/2016/2016oncj155/2016oncj155.html?autocompleteStr=ghomeshi&autocompletePos=4
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Mar 24, 2016 20:10
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Thanks
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Mar 24, 2016 20:17
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PK loving SUBBAN posted:Conversely however, him being found not guilty will have an chilling effect on women who've been assaulted and are deciding whether or not to go to the police. Perhaps but what kind of precedent would've been set if the judge convicted him based on no physical evidence, no DNA and deceptive witness statements from decade old events?
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Mar 24, 2016 20:19
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