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The Kingfish posted:I said there was a difference in the way that people perceive their identities and the way that they perform their identities. No, you said there was a difference in the construction and meaning of those identities and then refused to answer or defend what you meant at all and shifted to something completely different.
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Mar 24, 2016 19:09
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No I didn't. I posted a response to a post and then was told to describe what gender is and how its performed. I'm not interested in writing an essay for you just to have it ignored or dismissed with a single sarcastic sentence - which is ultimately what would happen. The Kingfish fucked around with this message at 19:41 on Mar 24, 2016 |
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Mar 24, 2016 19:36
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The fact remains that you're one of the people who's consistently dismissed or ignored longer posts with sarcastic or ignorant replies in this thread. You're one of the only sources of what you claim to expect. Almost all of your posts are single sentences, most of them are dismissive of other people, and some of them even contain childish name calling or strawmen. No single one of your posts contain a single complete paragraph. You haven't put any effort at all into this thread, yet you expect others to deliver you content and effort. You've been nothing but extremely disingenuous and derogatory the entire time and somehow still expect to be taken seriously at all. Occam's razor applies very easily. You've yet to apply any reasoning to any of your statements beside "it's stupid!" or "I don't want to!" ergo you have no real reasoning besides feeling that trans people are just different for some reason. You need to personally examine your biases. les enfants Terrific! fucked around with this message at 21:06 on Mar 24, 2016 |
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Mar 24, 2016 21:04
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Atasnaya Vaflja posted:The fact remains that you're one of the people who's consistently dismissed or ignored longer posts with sarcastic or ignorant replies in this thread. You're one of the only sources of what you claim to expect. Almost all of your posts are single sentences, most of them are dismissive of other people, and some of them even contain childish name calling or strawmen. No single one of your posts contain a single complete paragraph. You haven't put any effort at all into this thread, yet you expect others to deliver you content and effort. You've been nothing but extremely disingenuous and derogatory the entire time and somehow still expect to be taken seriously at all.  , given that you're the one person (besides effectronica, but who cares about effectronica  ) who most consistently reduces everyone who does not agree with you to being evil.
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Mar 24, 2016 21:23
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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^and wwn
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Mar 24, 2016 21:26
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I never called anyone evil. Everyone has biases they need to work out. Pointing out those biases and bigotries isn't someone saying you're an evil, terrible person, it's someone saying that you have prejudice that you need to be aware of and work out. You believing I'm calling people "evil" says more about you than it does about me. Perhaps you need to work on that as well. If you feel that only evil people can be prejudiced, there is a big problem. Some very nice people can be very prejudiced and bigoted, in fact, and their prejudice can sometimes hurt more or have a bigger effect.
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Mar 24, 2016 21:29
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The Kingfish posted:I'm not interested in writing an essay for you just to have it ignored or dismissed with a single sarcastic sentence - which is ultimately what would happen. Nobody in D&D would ever do that.
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Mar 24, 2016 21:34
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Having bad opinions does not make you evil, but you should probably fix them.
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Mar 24, 2016 22:22
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OwlFancier posted:Having bad opinions does not make you evil, but you should probably fix them. lol bad opinions.
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Mar 24, 2016 23:18
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If you'd like to argue that all opinions are equally good then feel free but that is a good example of a bad opinion.
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Mar 24, 2016 23:19
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I'm not sure it's right to say conformity is moral, it's something that people just need to feel comfortable from time to time. The perpetual debate is always "well conform to what", and I think that matters, and it's where you get to talk about morality.Atasnaya Vaflja posted:Almost all of your posts are single sentences, most of them are dismissive of other people, and some of them even contain childish name calling or strawmen.  Effectronica posted:You pack the fewest ideas into the most words of anyone in this thread. All you've got is "conformity good" and "ur a transphobe".
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Mar 24, 2016 23:35
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the trump tutelage posted:Not everything is about you and your sexual proclivities, Effectronica You said that conformity is moral. Now, pounding a man in the rear end does not conform to mainstream sexuality. Therefore, by your own words, it is immoral. If you don't wish to defend what you say, I would suggest not saying it in the first place. The Kingfish posted:You've addled your brain from smoking too much tronic. You said there is no such thing as a self, so as a consequence of this belief there is no subjectivity and so no gap between minds. I'm sorry that you've got an inadequate understanding of reality, but if you can't take the heat, get the hell out of the kitchen. rudatron posted:I didn't say either of those things. Are you being pedantic, or do you genuinely see a world of difference between "conformity is necessary for people to feel good" and "conformity is good"? Because the latter is at least interesting enough to warrant explanation.
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Mar 24, 2016 23:54
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I agree with rudatron, but rudatron's post did not adequately hand-hold the reader to explicitly state that nobody actually asks to be called "xir" anyway so it doesn't matter, and also trans people practically by definition satisfy the criteria for pronouns being a simple matter of respect and human decency (as opposed to someone like Xommie Xed Xanders invented to ask for a name like Master, who simply doesn't exist and wouldn't be taken seriously for reasons rudatron has stated), so I can see how some might mistake it as "gender binary is set in stone and you have to pick one or giiiiiiit out." As it stands, what distinguishes the genders "woman" and "man" is what the society deems, and we are talking about what society ought to deem, via the interplay of culture and law. Across history, the struggles for justice have been to erode distinctions between the genders, such as economic function, function within child rearing, reproductive agency, and of course the genitalia someone was born with. Am I correct in thinking that all that should ideally distinguish genders (as two ends of a continuous spectrum) is performance in attire and mannerism?
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Mar 25, 2016 00:06
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rudatron posted:Mine aren't. Hi quote:It's the balance of taking offense (individual comfort) vs. social responsibility, and in that respect bathroom/pronoun poo poo is rather minor... quote:First things first: what you look like has consequences. If you're making a choice to transition, and it's unlikely you'll 'pass' as the gender your transitioning into, you've made the wrong choice. What you feel you really are 'deep inside' is pointless, if you can't look like the gender you're aiming for, then you effectively have not actually transitioned. quote:The correct designation for you is 100% what you superficially look like. quote:From my view, if you're asking someone to address you as a certain pronoun, and you don't match what that pronoun looks like, or you've invented an entirely new pronoun, you are absolutely being disrespectful yourself by making that demand, that goes beyond what you should be able to ask. quote:Because you're not asking to be treated with respect, you're asking others to indulge you. It is then socially acceptable for them to refuse to do that. quote:So if you don't (reasonably) present like a woman, yet you ask to be addressed as one, you are out of line, period. quote:There's no such thing as an authentic identity, gender or otherwise. quote:It's an assumption TERFS, traditionalist-transphobes, and you, seem to make, you just differ on its limits. Again, incredible for you to say as you're the one placing limitations on who can identify as a gender and how. You really didn't want me to look through your posts in more detail because your gatekeeping and insistence that trans people act and look a certain way before they're respectable or allowed to identify as their genders is probably not something you should want highlighted.
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Mar 25, 2016 00:07
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Actually I'd feel really comfortable if you went into your objections with detail, because I feel I have a good grasp on what you're saying and why it's wrong. Also, for the sake of readability, I'm not going to go through your posts quote-by-quote, because I know how quickly that can expand into a mess. But as you're reading, I want a favor from you: put aside what you think I'm saying. This beliefs and arguments of mine aren't conventional, don't treat them as such. First, I repeat: there is no such thing as an authentic identity. You are under the mistaken belief that performance is a precondition for identity acceptance - your identity (what you feel) isn't accepted until it matches your performance (expression of that identity). That's not what I'm saying, I saying the performance is the identity, that they are logically equivalent. To say that one identity is 'authentic' is to assume a hidden cause before the performance. If, for whatever reason, you aren't able to technically perform that identity, you can't become that identity. And I'm quite happy to extend this to 'butch' women, if they look masculine enough (such that they're effectively cross-dressing), I feel it would be correct to refer to them as men. If they're offended by that, well that's their problem. Communication is more than just words, if you're communicating one thing with your dress+presentation, yet saying another, you're the one who's out of line. Second, I'm not being the gatekeeper here. I don't have that power. I can say what I think and believe. But by the same token, you aren't not in a position that anyone who doesn't tow your line is being disrespectful. You can't declare that by fiat, you have to appeal to already existing notions of respect. So the issue with cis vs. trans and respect isn't one of denying one but granting to another, it's just the fact that you don't have to do much work if you're cis. You don't have to do anything to technically perform. It's the same standard, but the nature of reality means you can't just flip a switch and say 'okay I'm trans now'. Thirdly, no, bathrooms aren't important. They're just not, it's a place where you poo poo and piss, it's not loving consecrated earth. If you can't poo poo and piss in one, poo poo and piss in the other. Stinky_Pete posted:Am I correct in thinking that all that should ideally distinguish genders (as two ends of a continuous spectrum) is performance in attire and mannerism? Effectronica posted:Are you being pedantic, or do you genuinely see a world of difference between "conformity is necessary for people to feel good" and "conformity is good"? Because the latter is at least interesting enough to warrant explanation.
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Mar 25, 2016 01:43
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rudatron posted:Second, I'm not being the gatekeeper here. I don't have that power. I can say what I think and believe. But by the same token, you aren't not in a position that anyone who doesn't tow your line is being disrespectful. You can't declare that by fiat, you have to appeal to already existing notions of respect. So the issue with cis vs. trans and respect isn't one of denying one but granting to another, it's just the fact that you don't have to do much work if you're cis. You don't have to do anything to technically perform. It's the same standard, but the nature of reality means you can't just flip a switch and say 'okay I'm trans now'. So your argument is basically "People are cunts". Our argument is "no, well, actually, this is something that is ingrained societally and can be changed".
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Mar 25, 2016 01:50
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Well no, that's somewhat anti-social to believe that. It's acknowledging that society is something different from you, and that if you want acceptance in that society, you have to appeal to it in some way. "I believe I am this person, deep inside, different from what I look like" <- Why should anyone else care about this? Why should anyone else go out of their way to respect this?
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Mar 25, 2016 01:54
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rudatron posted:Well no, that's somewhat anti-social to believe that. It's acknowledging that society is something different from you, and that if you want acceptance in that society, you have to appeal to it in some way. "I believe I am this person, deep inside, different from what I look like" <- Why should anyone else care about this? Why should anyone else go out of their way to respect this? Social change happens. It's not really important what your deeply held beliefs are, it's important how you treat and respect people. If someone says "I'm a woman", and makes an effort to look like such, even if they're 6'4" and look like a bricklayer, then it's just common loving courtesy to treat them as such. Nobody is asking you to sit there and not intrinsically go "omg, this person is obviously trans". Nobody is asking you to find them attractive. We're asking you to sit there and treat people as the gender that they intrinsically identify with, even if it seems difficult for a cisgendered person to understand. DeathMuffin fucked around with this message at 02:16 on Mar 25, 2016 |
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Mar 25, 2016 02:14
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rudatron posted:Like there is an image in people's mind of what constitutes 'woman', and the further you are away from that, the less able you are to really identity as that. So beyond simple attire and mannerisms, we also talking stuff like facial hair + body shape. I mean there's just some people who may want to make that transition, but effectively can't because they're unable to technically approach that image/archetype. I don't think that's fair, but it is the way it is. Which is why I think technology can play a role, but you've got to be realistic about what it can and can't do I'm impressed by the Eurovision lady with a beard who is still clearly performing 'woman.'  I feel like some people would fit in well in both bathrooms, and so it's up to them which one they want to use. Like hey, you escaped the binary, congrats! You now get to choose the bathroom without a line. I wonder if anyone knows of someone who wouldn't fit in well in either bathroom. That would suck, and I think that's what rudatron means by the benefit fitting into a cookie-cutter far end of the spectrum. I just think that the variance within genders is greater than the distance between them. Rudatron, I think you mean "a sense of belonging" when you say "conformity," and your point is more along the lines of "nobody can truly be themselves unless they're alone," because even with a life partner we have to mold our behavior to signal with regard to the expectations of others, which includes signalling that you respect who a person is and what they're signalling by using the right words to describe them. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbkOXCAZDrI
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Mar 25, 2016 02:14
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Frosted Flake posted:I respectfully disagree with a certain conception of gender, privately. you do this neither privately nor respectfully when you post about how it's self-constructed on the internet
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Mar 25, 2016 02:16
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It's absolutely not the same standard and you know it. Butch cis women have their gender identities respected as a default, whereas a butch trans woman would not and would be told she needs to try harder at being a woman. No one tells a cis woman that she needs to wear skirts or dresses to be considered a "proper" woman, whereas people say that to trans women all the time. I highly doubt you would refer to a butch cis woman as a man, and I'm sure that you've had moments in the past where you've misgendered someone and gotten flustered and corrected yourself instead of putting your foot down like you are now and going, "Well, you're performing gender like this so you really should expect it." Misgendering someone and standing by it as you state you would (even though as I've stated I highly doubt you would) is very disrespectful. It also very much is a matter of giving respect to one class (as no one questions the gender of a cis person) and denying it to another class, as you can see from laws and discrimination that is happening in the world literally right this second. Cis people are granted respect for their identities without a second thought while trans people are offered abuse, a battery of questioning, and a litany of "tests" to "prove" we're legitimate. Trans people are denied basic human rights and murdered because of our identities while cis people are seen as an undisputed "normal." The standard is far from the same. Your standards for cis and trans people aren't even the same. Finally, bathrooms are incredibly important. It's not simply "just use another;" Trans people are often assaulted if they use the "wrong" bathroom which could arbitrarily be both of them depending on who's in there. Trans people often fear using the bathroom publicly because of this, and because of the stress of it. Trans people often hold it until they can find a private bathroom, which can cause a lot of medical issues including UTIs and bladder infections. You make a blase joke of how it's "not consecrated earth" but a lot of cis people treat it as such, to the point of harassing and abusing people they merely suspect of being trans who step foot in there. There have been and are multiple bathroom bill laws in circulation that ban trans people from using the correct bathroom, which would put women in the men's bathroom and at risk of assault, and put men in the women's bathroom and at risk of assault. Bathrooms are very important and it's ridiculous for you to claim they aren't and it shows that you're very out of touch. edit: Also you seem to believe that you're able to pinpoint trans people who "don't pass" somehow. You aren't. Most of us pass in society just fine. You want to know why? Because there are a lot of cis people who also don't "perform gender" the way you seem to think everyone has to, which is a very narrow and sexist viewpoint.
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Mar 25, 2016 02:17
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rudatron posted:Well, is eating inherently 'moral'? Is sex or masturbation 'moral'? It's something people do, just as they feel comfort in conformity, but whether it enters the realm of morality is debatable. There are, in fact, a whole lot of schools of thought that argue that morality should be based around pleasure and pain. They go all the way back to Epicurus. Of course, there's also the negative consequences of declaring pleasure immune to moral consideration, but I'm sure you'd freak out if I enumerated some of them.
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Mar 25, 2016 02:32
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Why do are cisgender people being called "privileged" when compared to transgender people, when it's the transgender people who are the only people ever who have had the privilege of choosing their gender? I didn't choose my gender, and being cast by society into my gender role has often been difficult and not enjoyable and limiting. The social demands placed upon me, and >99.9% of all human beings ever, have been unfair and completely out of my control. Trans people are the only people who are asserting their own desire against and above that which society labeled them as. Isn't that the privileged position? Especially if you succeed in making society bend the knee to your own ego?
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Mar 25, 2016 02:38
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Commie NedFlanders posted:Why do are cisgender people being called "privileged" when compared to transgender people, when it's the transgender people who are the only people ever who have had the privilege of choosing their gender? Transpeople don't "choose" their gender.
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Mar 25, 2016 02:43
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Commie NedFlanders posted:Why do are straight people being called "privileged" when compared to gay people, when it's the gay people who are the only people ever who have had the privilege of choosing their sexuality? Hmmm. Answer: Trans people don't choose their gender either. Trans people have to follow the same exact social demands. We just have to follow them while being abused and having less rights than the rest of the population. We aren't asking society to "bend" for us, we're asking to be treated as equal in society.
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Mar 25, 2016 02:44
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Commie NedFlanders posted:Why do are cisgender people being called "privileged" when compared to transgender people, when it's the transgender people who are the only people ever who have had the privilege of choosing their gender? But they didn't choose their gender. The evidence suggests that transgenderism has a strong biological component. And besides, why would you choose to identify as something other than your birth sex if you knew it would get you ridiculed, beat up, or even murdered?
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Mar 25, 2016 02:47
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Commie NedFlanders posted:Why do are cisgender people being called "privileged" when compared to transgender people, when it's the transgender people who are the only people ever who have had the privilege of choosing their gender? Judging by your post history, you deserve to be oppressed, though, so I don't see why this is supposed to be compelling. ------------ Even if being trans is completely non-biological in origin, it would still be right to support trans people and wrong to oppose them.
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Mar 25, 2016 02:48
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Commie NedFlanders posted:Why do are cisgender people being called "privileged" when compared to transgender people, when it's the transgender people who are the only people ever who have had the privilege of choosing their gender? they didn't choose either, op, hope this helps. namaste.
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Mar 25, 2016 02:50
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Also if your gender is unenjoyable, difficult, and limiting, perhaps you should consider that it's not the correct gender for you and you might feel more comfortable identifying another way. If you feel that way toward your gender, like it was something hefted onto you like a burden that you're not comfortable with... Well, you may not necessarily be cis, my friend.
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Mar 25, 2016 02:50
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"why are cis people considered privileged just because they aren't beaten and murdered for who they are"
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Mar 25, 2016 02:50
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If indeed you think that you should be able to choose your gender, and aren't just posturing to give your reeking, foul, glutinous bile that you mistakenly call opinions some infinitely undeserved credibility, well, it's not trans people stopping you from doing so.
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Mar 25, 2016 02:52
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Atasnaya Vaflja posted:Also if your gender is unenjoyable, difficult, and limiting, perhaps you should consider that it's not the correct gender for you and you might feel more comfortable identifying another way. If you feel that way toward your gender, like it was something hefted onto you like a burden that you're not comfortable with... Well, you may not necessarily be cis, my friend. This could explain a lot tbh.. I even went through a (mercifully short) obnoxious MRA phase when I was in denial
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Mar 25, 2016 02:56
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Atasnaya Vaflja posted:Also if your gender is unenjoyable, difficult, and limiting, perhaps you should consider that it's not the correct gender for you and you might feel more comfortable identifying another way. If you feel that way toward your gender, like it was something hefted onto you like a burden that you're not comfortable with... Well, you may not necessarily be cis, my friend. Are you kidding? Doesn't this go against the very idea of transsexualism? There were just 5 posts saying "trans is not a choice." Which is how I've always had it explained to me, that trans people feel inherantly "wrong" and as if they're stuck in the wrong body. But according to you, if some woman in a third world country finds her gender role unenjoyable, difficult, and limiting, then lol, maybe she's really a man. The idea that you might not be completely cis if you find some aspects of your gender to be unpleasant is deeply troubling. Sucrose fucked around with this message at 03:11 on Mar 25, 2016 |
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Mar 25, 2016 03:08
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Sucrose posted:Are you kidding? Doesn't this go against the very idea of transsexualism? There were just 5 posts saying "trans is not a choice." Which is how I've always had it explained to me, that trans people feel inherantly "wrong" and as if they're stuck in the wrong body. But according to you, if some woman in a third world country finds her gender role unenjoyable, difficult, and limiting, then lol, maybe she's really a man. Hey are you going to defend your misunderstanding of what a "closed class" is, Sucrose?
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Mar 25, 2016 03:11
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Sucrose posted:Are you kidding? Doesn't this go against the very idea of transsexualism? There were just 5 posts saying "trans is not a choice." Which is how I've always had it explained to me, that trans people feel inherantly "wrong" and as if they're stuck in the wrong body. But according to you, if some woman in a third world country finds her gender role unenjoyable, difficult, and limiting, lol, then maybe she's really a man. Only if you're determined to interpret it this way to win a stupid point on the internet. How you are isn't a choice. What you do about it - whether it's transitioning, living a life of confusion and misery, aggressively denying it to the point of arguing against the rights of your own people, or putting a bullet in your head - that's a choice, I guess.
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Mar 25, 2016 03:12
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Sucrose posted:
Why? Is it because you view being trans as a medical disorder? Afraid that you, too, might be nutso?
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Mar 25, 2016 03:12
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Effectronica posted:Hey are you going to defend your misunderstanding of what a "closed class" is, Sucrose? How have I misunderstood what a closed class is? It says right there in the goddamn dictionary that pronouns are a type of closed-class words.
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Mar 25, 2016 03:13
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Sucrose posted:Are you kidding? Doesn't this go against the very idea of transsexualism? There were just 5 posts saying "trans is not a choice." Which is how I've always had it explained to me, that trans people feel inherantly "wrong" and as if they're stuck in the wrong body. But according to you, if some woman in a third world country finds her gender role unenjoyable, difficult, and limiting, then lol, maybe she's really a man. Not at all? Because if you find your gender uncomfortable, difficult, and limiting to the point that you've got a chip on your shoulder that you can't just choose your gender, you probably have issues with your gender identity that you need to work out and you could possibly be trans. It's not necessarily something you innately know and a lot of people discover or realize it later in life. Being transgender is an experience that is different for every person. Similarly to being gay, some people know early in their life while some people have a long struggle with it and don't come to terms until they're far older. This is in part a symptom of our society turning it into a bad and shameful thing to be.
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Mar 25, 2016 03:15
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Sucrose posted:How have I misunderstood what a closed class is? It says right there in the goddamn dictionary that pronouns are a type of closed-class words. Closed classes aren't immune to linguistic change or the addition of new words, pronouns are not inherently closed, and whether pronouns are closed or not only has impact on how you treat people if you view linguistics as a religion rather than a field of study.
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Mar 25, 2016 03:17
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Sucrose posted:The idea that you might not be completely cis if you find some aspects of your gender to be unpleasant is deeply troubling. If you are uncomfortable with your gender then yes, you may not be "completely" cis and I encourage people to explore gender identity. This is like saying "the idea that you might not be completely straight if you find some aspects of your sexuality to be unpleasant is deeply troubling." There's no reason it should be troubling. There's nothing wrong with exploring gender or sexuality, and there's no reason why straight or cis should be the unquestioned default. Everyone should be encouraged to explore aspects of self identity in healthy ways. It shouldn't be "troubling," it shouldn't be a stigma. les enfants Terrific! fucked around with this message at 03:21 on Mar 25, 2016 |
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Mar 25, 2016 03:19
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