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Commie NedFlanders posted:if you can help, i'm trying to be open, but an open mind is not the same thing as automatically accepting your world view (and to be frank, a lot of people arguing in such bad faith is making it more difficult than it should be) Your post history suggests you're not trying to be open, and that you are arguing in bad faith. I'm sorry if you're not, but you might want to work on this if you want people to engage. This is my perception of you, and it's clearly more valid than your own internal beliefs in how you are.
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Mar 25, 2016 04:15
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Commie NedFlanders posted:if you can help, i'm trying to be open, but an open mind is not the same thing as automatically accepting your world view Commie NedFlanders posted:maybe, but if you're a man, how can you have any idea what it feels like to be a woman? Commie NedFlanders posted:I didn't get to choose my ethnic heritage either. I can choose how much I let that heritage inform my life and character, I can choose to internalize and express various aspects of my ancestral ethnic background, or I can choose not to. I can choose to speak with an accent of my people's native tongue, or I can choose not to. I can decide how much and which aspects of the cards which I was dealt will influence my life and how much I will embrace them into my sense of who I am, but what I cannot (or should not) do, is put on blackface or tape my eyes so they look squinty and start demanding that other people treat me as a member of an ethnic community that I didn't come from. Commie NedFlanders posted:assume i'm totally autistic (i may be, you don't know), and please explain to me exactly how appropriating another gender CANNOT BE COMPARED to appropriating another ethnicity Commie NedFlanders posted:i like how you are using "existence" the same way the zionist government of Israel does when they defend their right to exist You're the literal opposite of "open" right now. You've done nothing but misgender and call trans people harmful and predatory and compared us to blackface.
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Mar 25, 2016 04:16
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Atasnaya Vaflja posted:It's not a direct quote, because I never said "gender role," I just said gender, in reference to the fact that Commie NedFlanders was lamenting the fact that they couldn't choose their gender. You're absolutely twisting words and have been all along. And given that Commie NedFlanders was clearly talking about gender roles, as was stated in their very next sentence, you either were also talking about gender roles or were just trying to get in a cheap "transphobic? Well maybe you yourself are trans" shot. And if so you can't blame me for being confused.
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Mar 25, 2016 04:17
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Sucrose posted:And given that Commie NedFlanders was clearly talking about gender roles, as was stated in the very next sentence, you either were also talking about gender roles or were just trying to get in a cheap "transphobic? Well maybe you yourself are trans" shot. And if so you can't blame me for being confused. No, I was legitimately talking about how they have a huge chip on their shoulder about feeling "stuck" in their gender and seem to be embittered toward trans people for being able to "choose." You're reading into it too deep.
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Mar 25, 2016 04:18
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Atasnaya Vaflja posted:You haven't been arguing in good faith or treating people with respect or decency this entire thread. can you give me some tips on how to show more respect and avoid being indecent because it seems i'm mistakingly making missteps there seems to be a gap in how i and others view things, so we might bump into each other without realizing, but i don't want to intentionally poo poo on people and if i can make some reasonable adjustments to facilitate the discussion, i would be glad to
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Mar 25, 2016 04:19
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Commie NedFlanders posted:can you give me some tips on how to show more respect and avoid being indecent because it seems i'm mistakingly making missteps calling being trans a "male fantasy of womanhood" is a thing to avoid, fyi
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Mar 25, 2016 04:21
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Commie NedFlanders posted:can you give me some tips on how to show more respect and avoid being indecent because it seems i'm mistakingly making missteps Avoid everything you've been doing in this thread. Don't misgender trans people. Don't say that trans people can just never understand what it's like to be our genders. Don't imply that there's a shared subjective truth for a gender. Don't call a minority privileged for wanting equal rights. Don't call a minority not wanting to be killed and abused just whining about being uncomfortable. Don't compare being trans to blackface. Don't compare a minority's right to equality to "the zionist government of Israel."
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Mar 25, 2016 04:23
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Yo Sucrose, I am a fully functional human being and I can see that you ran like the coward you are from me correcting you on your wack-rear end religion of half-understood linguistics. I suggest that if you're going to talk about morals you refrain from such immoral activities in the future.
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Mar 25, 2016 04:23
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Atasnaya Vaflja posted:You're the literal opposite of "open" right now. You've done nothing but misgender and call trans people harmful and predatory and compared us to blackface. if you would teach me a reasonable and concise and fair response against this argument, i would be happy to use it myself this is how to win over people to your cause i don't agree with gay marriage or abortion but i've had generous people who in good faith, without putting words in my mouth or insulting me, offer very reasonable and understandable arguments which have helped me not only understand the issue better, but equip me to argue in favor of marriage equality and pro choice laws. despite my own personal views, i am quick to defend public policy on the merits of those good and reasonable arguments
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Mar 25, 2016 04:27
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Effectronica posted:Yo Sucrose, I am a fully functional human being and I can see that you ran like the coward you are from me correcting you on your wack-rear end religion of half-understood linguistics. I suggest that if you're going to talk about morals you refrain from such immoral activities in the future. Effectronica posted:Closed classes aren't immune to linguistic change or the addition of new words, pronouns are not inherently closed, and whether pronouns are closed or not only has impact on how you treat people if you view linguistics as a religion rather than a field of study. Sorry? I don't see you point here. I said that in English, pronouns are a closed class. They are a closed class. Nothing else you've said has any relevance to that, and you haven't "corrected" me on anything. The fact that the English language changes doesn't mean that you yourself can change it willy-nilly and then expect other people to conform to your changes. I mean, you can, but that's going to get the respect it deserves. If that has any effect on how I treat someone, then it has nothing to do with them being trans, or non-binary, it has to do with them making unreasonable requests of me and others. Sucrose fucked around with this message at 04:36 on Mar 25, 2016 |
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Mar 25, 2016 04:32
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Commie NedFlanders posted:if you would teach me a reasonable and concise and fair response against this argument, i would be happy to use it myself dogg you don't get to do this when you start from "male fantasy of womanhood" you don't get to complain about being treated with respect
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Mar 25, 2016 04:32
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Sucrose posted:Sorry? I don't see you point here. I said that in English, pronouns are a closed class. They are a closed class. Nothing else you've said has any relevance to that. "Closed class" doesn't mean what you're saying it does, and using linguistics as the basis for moral condemnation is one of the stupidest kinds of scientism ever inflicted on this planet. You also did not restrict yourself to English, but that is a minor point. The fact that you won't even try to defend your theology around Grimm's law or whatever other nauseating aspects you'd make up for your religion if you had the creativity of a mouse suggests you know this deep down but feel the urge to lie to others and yourself.
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Mar 25, 2016 04:36
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You've already tried to pull the "more flies with honey" argument and it's already been discussed. I've been more than patient with you while you've said some increasingly vile things. I've been treating you with far more honey than you deserve, yet you ask for more and more while slinging out increasing amounts of vinegar. You are not entitled to me calmly sitting down and educating you while you foam at the mouth and throw the desk and chair at me. It's a ridiculous request for you to continue to say derogatory and discriminatory things yet expect me to pat you on the head and say, okay sweetie, what else can I help you with? You haven't treated me or anyone else in this thread with respect. You've said things that you have to know are offensive. You do not deserve patience or respect in return and people have been way too reasonable already.
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Mar 25, 2016 04:37
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Effectronica posted:"Closed class" doesn't mean what you're saying it does, and using linguistics as the basis for moral condemnation is one of the stupidest kinds of scientism ever inflicted on this planet. Why? If someone acts all haughty and offended that someone dared to use double negatives when speaking to them, I can absolutely make a moral judgement that they are an rear end in a top hat. If someone demands that someone else speak in a bizarre, stilted way when addressing them and gets offended if they won't, I can also make a moral judgement about that behavior. The only thing I've been trying to use linguistics for is to argue that making this demand of other people is unreasonable. It's reasonable to expect other people to call you by your chosen name. It's reasonable to expect other people to call you a "she" if you have informed them that you are female. Both those things are just basic acts of respect. It is not reasonable to expect other people to use a unique set of pronouns that you've made up to refer to you whenever they speak in your presence. Sucrose fucked around with this message at 04:49 on Mar 25, 2016 |
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Mar 25, 2016 04:41
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Atasnaya Vaflja posted:Avoid everything you've been doing in this thread. Don't misgender trans people. Don't say that trans people can just never understand what it's like to be our genders. Don't imply that there's a shared subjective truth for a gender. Don't call a minority privileged for wanting equal rights. Don't call a minority not wanting to be killed and abused just whining about being uncomfortable. Don't compare being trans to blackface. Don't compare a minority's right to equality to "the zionist government of Israel." all of these could be fixed by simply explaining to me why these things are wrong. i'm not going to intentionally call someone the wrong gender just to be contrarian, that's rude and pointless, i agree but when you say "don't make this argument", you're going to have to help me understand why. this is a perfect example of the "shutting down debate" stuff that right wingers love to accuse liberals of. you say, for example, not to compare transgender to blackface, but i'm telling you i legitimately can't explain in my own words why ethnic appropriation such as blackface is Obviously Always Bad, but gender appropriation is Obviously Good and Demands Everyone's Approval. I'm at least being open minded enough to even ask questions rather than just insulting or assaulting or whatever other people might do. I've heard people compare transgenderism to cultural appropriation, and frankly if I were to hear it in the future, I would still not be equipped with a proper argument against it other than "Don't Say That". I'm telling you, i'm asking questions to learn and i feel like a student being shot down by a teacher for asking stupidass questions, it simply doesn't facilitate a healthy exchange of ideas and i think if you are in a minority, it's best to encourage a civil exchange of ideas because as it is the deck is already stacked against you. ** i asked many specific questions and it seems the only one you actually wanted to answer was when i asked you to "tell me what to do", it really seems like you are more interested in policing my behavior than you are giving me reasons to freely agree with you. ***the comparison to the Israeli government was a bit snarky, I admit, but the point was that someone was saying that things occur "simply because they exist", which was a gross oversimplification.of course i don't support any abuse of transpeople but the problem that the haters have with transpeople isn't that they exist, it's the way in which they relate to their neighbors (that's not to say transpeople are doing anything wrong per say, but what upsets people is social interactions with transpeople, not a transperson living in their basement), it's like the way the zionists in Israel always say "MY RIGHT TO EXIST" when really the entire conflict is about the way in which they exist in relation to their neighbors. don't argue the way the zionists do.
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Mar 25, 2016 04:47
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Multiple people did explain why it wasn't appropriation, you just ignored it. I'm not obligated to educate you. No one is. I'm not your teacher, I'm not being paid for it. People have already answered a lot of your questions. A lot of your posts weren't even posited as questions. When questioned, you didn't answer other people's questions. In a discussion, it's a two way street. If you want to engage other people, you need to be willing to be engaged. You never explained some of your beliefs, just sidestepped and avoided them. Multiple people have explained theirs to you. People had to ask you why you were comparing blackface to being trans in the first place before you even asked the question, anyway. You didn't ask it. You posted it as a truth. Same as your other "questions." edit: Like I said, people have been incredibly patient in the face of your blatant prejudice and after a certain point it becomes ridiculous. You aren't owed it at all. You act very entitled to trans people's time and our answers, but you treat us with no respect and you make no effort to, instead spitting in our faces. Much of this is very easy and basic information to find. It's 101 basic stuff that you can Google. It's included in pamphlets that you can find on any support site. It becomes immensely exhausting to go over these same things again and again - especially when it's the same person repeating it in the same thread. les enfants Terrific! fucked around with this message at 04:56 on Mar 25, 2016 |
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Mar 25, 2016 04:52
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Ned, what do you make of the multiple studies suggesting that the MTF transpeople have brains more similar to those of ciswomen than to those of cismen, while FTM transpeople have brains more similar to cismen than to ciswomen, even without hormone therapy? It's also worth pointing out that gender is not just a social construct. If it were, gender nonconformists simply wouldn't exist. People like David Reimer, who was born male but received sex reassignment surgery and was raised female after his botched circumcision, would live out their lives as women instead of identifying as male.
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Mar 25, 2016 04:53
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Literally The Worst posted:dogg you don't get to do this when you start from "male fantasy of womanhood" i don't exactly understand this but it seems more and more that the attitude is "if you don't already get it, we have no interest in talking to your stupid disrespectful self" which is a really short sighted way to spread awareness or grow a movement in a hostile cultural environment sorry for fighting at your black panther party i see that i have gotten a bit defensive, i've felt under attack for asking stupid questions apparently but i don't feel like i've really come away any closer to understanding the other side's positions (other than the position of TREAD CAREFULLY CISSCUM). to be honest it's upsetting and draining and i'm rather worn out for tonight. looking back i did see some posters have actually answered some of my questions, offered some interesting information ,and asked me some cool stuff to think about but i don't feel too good about this whole thing so i'll try and be more mindful and address the people offering to help me see this more clearly, but later when my spirit is rejuvenated stay safe genderfluid ghosts Commie NedFlanders fucked around with this message at 05:02 on Mar 25, 2016 |
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Mar 25, 2016 04:54
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Commie NedFlanders posted:i don't exactly understand this but it seems more and more that the attitude is "if you don't already get it, we have no interest in talking to your stupid disrespectful self" which is a really short sighted way to spread awareness or grow a movement in a hostile cultural environment dude you're saying straight up gross hateful poo poo and then pretending you don't understand how it's gross hateful poo poo and demanding respect get fuckin bent, do your own fuckin research
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Mar 25, 2016 04:57
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It has been two days of this same nonsense. Twice you have said "maybe you guys should be nicer  " while spouting off bigoted rhetoric almost word for word from the transphobe's handbook. No matter how anyone responds, you (and people like you) aren't going to be satisfied because you've already got your prejudices made up in your mind.It's incredibly cyclic and exhausting. Why do you think you're entitled to the respect of continued answers and argument? les enfants Terrific! fucked around with this message at 05:03 on Mar 25, 2016 |
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Mar 25, 2016 05:00
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Imagine you're a 13-year-old boy. You start growing breasts and people are constantly calling you by a girl's name. You tell them to stop but they just do it more to taunt you. Imagine how loving mortifying that would be. That is a taste of what it's like to be trans, as far as I can tell. If you find yourself thinking "what's the big deal with them wanting me to play along with this," try to ruminate on that. This isn't some tumblr profile poo poo people do on a whim. As for grammar chat, here's a test case: boats are somehow one of the last remaining gendered inanimate nouns in English, and are called "she." BUT what if you took a male horse and transformed him into a boat, creating an aquatic equestrian hybrid. The horse is a "he" but the boat is a "she." What do you call the horse transitioning to boat? She, even though she is still shaped like a male horse.  The computers agree. Stinky_Pete fucked around with this message at 00:27 on Mar 26, 2016 |
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Mar 25, 2016 06:44
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I think it's rather telling, that the only real justification for why NedFlanders has been insulting, is that he's misgendering, when whether or not this it's misgendering is the exact topic being discussed. Just something worth noting. Another thing worth noting, before I get to the responses to myself, is this:Atasnaya Vaflja posted:This is like saying "the idea that you might not be completely straight if you find some aspects of your sexuality to be unpleasant is deeply troubling." There's no reason it should be troubling. There's nothing wrong with exploring gender or sexuality, and there's no reason why straight or cis should be the unquestioned default. Everyone should be encouraged to explore aspects of self identity in healthy ways. It shouldn't be "troubling," it shouldn't be a stigma. Well she can definitely sing, though I think the facial hair works here because it's very, uh, 'linear' I guess., it's tries to look more like a discoloration than actual hair. Though maybe that too is just social standards, I hear Russia didn't like her. Well it depends on the effort they put in. Even then, sometimes you're just not going to be able to keep up that pretense, and it's insulting to others to expect them to do so. Courtesy is a finite resource. It is the same standard actually, it's just the starting points are different, so you end up with this (unfair, I'll grant you unfair) burden of having to reach it, rather than simply starting there. So, with skirts and dresses, a cis woman doesn't have to wear them and still fit into the archetype, but you're not starting from that point. You don't have that leeway. And don't doubt me for a second here, If some butch woman looked like a man, but refused to identify as one, I'm not giving a poo poo what they want, I'm referring to them as what they look like. Well, I guess that dependent on power, if I need them to do something then you indulge them, but if the situations are reversed I'm not extending that to him. I also think it's obvious that everyone deserves safety, both the physical safety and the psychological safety to be free from abuse. Obviously trans-people deserve that too, and the people that threaten that safety are in the wrong, and without excuse. But that's not particularly relevant to this topic, which is about pronouns, entitlements, and so on. That's not to minimize any abuse you may experience, you. do. no. deserve. that.Which ties itno bathrooms, well obviously if you can't use any bathroom, that's a real danger, but your risk of assault doesn't really have a legal solution, nor is this topic particularly relevant. If there's some real rear end in a top hat who's not letting you use any bathroom, or a set of assholes, that's not changed by what is discussed here, or really what the law says. I mean that's just harassment, plain and simple, don't really know if that's solved by anything less than policing. You seem a little confused by my point though. Like if they 'pass', then they automatically succeed. That's kind of my point. Effectronica posted:There are, in fact, a whole lot of schools of thought that argue that morality should be based around pleasure and pain. They go all the way back to Epicurus. rudatron fucked around with this message at 07:29 on Mar 25, 2016 |
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Mar 25, 2016 07:09
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Commie NedFlanders posted:I've heard people compare transgenderism to cultural appropriation, and frankly if I were to hear it in the future, I would still not be equipped with a proper argument against it other than "Don't Say That". The reason people compare transgenderism to cultural appropriation is they wrongly assume that transgender folk put on the trappings of their assumed gender, as someone might put a feather in their hair, wear a hide loincloth and call themself an American Indian. To the point of cultural appropriation, if you hypothetically went to Peru and lived the existence of a Peruvian shepherd, nobody would accuse you of culturally appropriating Peruvians. On the other hand, if you put on a sombrero, sarape, and played flute music, subsequently removed them, and never had the intent to pursue that lifestyle, it's grounds for the accusation of cultural appropriation. Culturally speaking, the former is more akin to transgenderism than the latter, but it's not the same in any case. Sucrose posted:It's reasonable to expect other people to call you by your chosen name. It's reasonable to expect other people to call you a "she" if you have informed them that you are female. Both those things are just basic acts of respect. It is not reasonable to expect other people to use a unique set of pronouns that you've made up to refer to you whenever they speak in your presence. If all friendship necessitates reasonability, there would be a lot fewer friendships. And while you are free to consider a unique set of pronouns "not reasonable" others around you may agree, or they may consider your offense "not reasonable". In the instance of the former, antagonizing the person for such a decision and receiving communal support is the reason transgender people feel driven to suicide--society abhors and ostracizes them. In terms of the latter, you are still free to hold to your beliefs, but you may receive social stigma due to your choices. The reason why the former is not okay but the latter is? Inclusivity. A nickname is just as unreasonable as a unique pronoun, but in the case of pronouns, the significant attention of the issue might help solidify some semblance of a standard. Let me ask you this: if the English language as a majority decides to put forth a standard for nonbinary pronouns, would you use it? This is, of course, rhetorical; the English language is not curated as French is, so someone inventing a pronoun might not be popular, but there's no linguistic precedent for actively denying the effort. If your goony friend wants to go by some random assortment of letters as a pronoun, you can be reasonable and unfriendly about it, or you can discard this one instance of reasonability and be nice. At least in the case of religious entitlement, there are supposedly immutable documents and a hierarchy of authority to provision accuracy and correctness. Gender pronoun entitlement isn't; if gender pronouns were an entitlement, one could be fired for not using proper pronouns, one could be disciplined for misuse, and so forth. Generally, religious entitlement was applied as a sort of "golden rule", i.e., respecting a minority religion so that the grounds for respecting a majority religion is also respected. When cultural divisiveness actively undermines the opportunities, safety, and freedoms of transgenders, arguing over pronouns feels pointless, but public policy and personal affect are vastly different things; a nonbinary asking for a distinct pronoun and being denied isn't a matter of "I'm going to write my congressional representative", it becomes a matter of personal affront, of denying someone their identity. If you want to deny a drink of water to one dying of thirst because they lack shirt and shoes, sure, go ahead, be your terrible self 
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Mar 25, 2016 07:40
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Your use of 'Their identity' has got me thinking of another way to frame this, to really put my point across - you, as a person, do not own your identity. Like I don't like the comparison to cultural appropriation, because I've had that conversation and it's not worth derailing this one, but the general idea is that inclusion into a group is not under your control, and that's the case for both gender and cultures. They're social groups, and your inclusion is conditional on everyone else's approval. As a statement of fact, you're not included until the majority sees you that way, or the group you want to be included into sees it that way. To simply assert that you are, without acknowledging that, is to treat other people like idiots. It's like walking up to a group of strangers, and pretending that you know them - it's disrespectful. This is a basic of human interaction. You are not a special snowflake, everyone else has their own poo poo to deal with. If you want to be accepted, you - you - have to appeal to them. That's not to say that any exclusion is necessarily in the right, even if that group has an abstract right to perform that exclusion. We can still talk about fairness with treating other people as people, giving them a chance, etc, that's a valid debate. What you can't do, is deny that they have that right. That they must accept you, without a choice, without a debate of fairness, and without their control - it's not gonna happen. You wouldn't accept it if the situations were reversed, treat other people the same way.
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Mar 25, 2016 08:03
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If a friend asks you not to take the lord's name in vain, because she finds it very emotionally painful and uncomfortable to hear it, do you comply? What if the request is made by a stranger?
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Mar 25, 2016 09:00
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sidviscous posted:So your argument is basically "People are cunts". Our argument is "no, well, actually, this is something that is ingrained societally and can be changed". No it's that some people have 'em(also some people are them but that's another issue) and that happens to be kind of a v. big deal when it comes to gender and ignoring that leads to absurdities where stagings of The Vagina Monologues are protested as horrible reactionary TERF nonsense that possession of a uterus and the capacity to conceive and undergo parturition can be said to play a major role in shaping and defining the lives of women.
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Mar 25, 2016 10:18
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Mistle posted:To the point of cultural appropriation, if you hypothetically went to Peru and lived the existence of a Peruvian shepherd, nobody would accuse you of culturally appropriating Peruvians. No way, you'd still get accused of cultural appropriation in that case or in the case where you were born and raised white in the US and one day earnestly decided to act like and identify as a black American.
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Mar 25, 2016 10:33
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Pththya-lyi posted:Ned, what do you make of the multiple studies suggesting that the MTF transpeople have brains more similar to those of ciswomen than to those of cismen, while FTM transpeople have brains more similar to cismen than to ciswomen, even without hormone therapy? Sex isn't gender.
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Mar 25, 2016 10:41
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Literally The Worst posted:dude you're saying straight up gross hateful poo poo and then pretending you don't understand how it's gross hateful poo poo and demanding respect You are arguing on the level of an angry teenager. Atasnaya Vaflja posted:It has been two days of this same nonsense. Twice you have said "maybe you guys should be nicer You are projecting. Everyone who doesn't already live in your own little world and makes arguments that offend you is obviously out to oppress you, consciously or unconsciously, without considering cause and effect when it comes to things that offend you and things that oppress you and without realising that the average person has never knowingly dealt with your issue. After a few rounds of this everyone who didn't already agree with you beforehand goes "I don't want to listen to this poo poo anymore, just shut the gently caress up" and stops caring about your problems. Like angry teenager guy, if you feel too special to explain your problem to the uninformed public, you either don't actually have a problem or you are poo poo at fighting for your cause. The Larch posted:Sex isn't gender. Are you saying there is no overlap at all suck my woke dick fucked around with this message at 11:09 on Mar 25, 2016 |
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Mar 25, 2016 11:07
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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lite frisk posted:If a friend asks you not to take the lord's name in vain, because she finds it very emotionally painful and uncomfortable to hear it, do you comply? at this point in my life i just say "yeah okay" and don't do it. i can find other ways to express myself. maybe invoke the name of some obscure norse gods or something. if a stranger asks, that's even easier, because they're gonna be out of my life in like 20 minutes and i can go back to sinning to my heart's content. was this supposed to be a sick mic drop or something? being accommodating to poo poo like this isn't actually like hard or noteworthy. RE: cultural appropriation and trans-ethnicity, such as it is: there is not an extensive body of medical, psychiatric, and historical work to draw on for instances of this phenomenon. the affliction would likely fall under a cognitive disorder if studied. i feel like there's some fertile ground for research into individuals who identify as trans-ethnic. if a significant movement coalesces from the trans-ethnic community then who am i to say otherwise? all of this, of course, assumes that this ever happens or a trans-ethnic community ever actually materializes. until it does, it's reasonable to just file it under "fringe case". i'm as open-minded as they come, but there needs to be some precedent for this kind of thing. of which there is plenty for trans issues and nonbinary expression, as it so happens. going back centuries, even. hardly a new phenomenon.
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Mar 25, 2016 11:19
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rudatron posted:Well it depends on the effort they put in. Even then, sometimes you're just not going to be able to keep up that pretense, and it's insulting to others to expect them to do so. Courtesy is a finite resource. So any person that claiming to be a woman that doesn't exactly match your platonic ideal of a woman is personally insulting you... somehow. How absolutely selfish and conceited can you be? You don't get to decide people's genders for them simply because they don't look exactly like whatever weird, fetishized ideal you have in your head. You are not being slighted against in the least for being asked to treat a person as a certain gender. Perhaps you should think less about yourself and more about others? Edit: rudatron posted:Your use of 'Their identity' has got me thinking of another way to frame this, to really put my point across - you, as a person, do not own your identity. Yes you do. Who What Now fucked around with this message at 15:50 on Mar 25, 2016 |
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Mar 25, 2016 11:55
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Any assertion of individual identity is violence against the State. Learn to overcome the crass demands of flesh and bone, for they warp the matrix through which we perceive the world. Extend your awareness outward, beyond the self of body, to embrace the self of group and the self of humanity. The goals of the group and the greater whole are transcendent, and to embrace them is to achieve enlightenment.
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Mar 25, 2016 12:51
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rudatron posted:Well no, that's somewhat anti-social to believe that. It's acknowledging that society is something different from you, and that if you want acceptance in that society, you have to appeal to it in some way. "I believe I am this person, deep inside, different from what I look like" <- Why should anyone else care about this? Why should anyone else go out of their way to respect this? Because it's actually very easy to do, it is merely not intuitive, and society already functions heavily on people doing things that are not intuitive, it simply then goes on to create new intuitive behaviours, some of which are neither necessary nor helpful. A better society could be created if those were changed.
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Mar 25, 2016 12:51
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I kind of enjoy the thought that having sex with someone is morally neutral, and forming your hand into a fist and swinging it repeatedly is morally neutral, rudatron. Not as much as I'll enjoy your continued refusal to explain why conformity being inevitable doesn't apply to stuffing gays back into the closet or inducing vitiligo on nonwhites, but does apply to nonbinary and trans fellows and making them use approved words for themselves. Even then, that will pale beside the belief that conformity is inevitable because it is forced on nonconformists you have implicitly stated, and will quite possibly explicitly assent to. Fursonally, I think that ignoring people actively taking their cues from other people as part of conforming is probably linked to all your handwringing over Muslims and their supposed deliberate refusal to integrate.
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Mar 25, 2016 13:17
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Effectronica posted:I kind of enjoy the thought that having sex with someone is morally neutral, and forming your hand into a fist and swinging it repeatedly is morally neutral, rudatron. If nobody involved feels good about it or gets harmed by it then it is morally neutral (or, rather, irrelevant).
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Mar 25, 2016 13:25
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blowfish posted:If nobody involved feels good about it or gets harmed by it then it is morally neutral (or, rather, irrelevant). That doesn't really account for a very large proportion of potential social activities, however.
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Mar 25, 2016 13:36
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blowfish posted:If nobody involved feels good about it or gets harmed by it then it is morally neutral (or, rather, irrelevant). Whoa whoa whoa, blowfish, I know you motherfuckers don't read posts, but you're directly disagreeing with rudatron about morality and I look forward to the *desperately tries to keep poker face* intellectual and fruitful discussion that you will inevitably engage in.
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Mar 25, 2016 13:36
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blowfish posted:You are projecting. Everyone who doesn't already live in your own little world and makes arguments that offend you is obviously out to oppress you, consciously or unconsciously, without considering cause and effect when it comes to things that offend you and things that oppress you and without realising that the average person has never knowingly dealt with your issue. After a few rounds of this everyone who didn't already agree with you beforehand goes "I don't want to listen to this poo poo anymore, just shut the gently caress up" and stops caring about your problems. It's been explained exhaustively ITT, the response has generally been "no that's stupid I shouldn't have to do that".
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Mar 25, 2016 13:42
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Literally nothing has been explained itt.
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Mar 25, 2016 15:26
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The Kingfish posted:Literally nothing has been explained itt. To the point where you are willing to understand it, no. That probably is not possible in this case as you are determined not to understand.
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Mar 25, 2016 15:28
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