|
Carrying two bags at once. Shotgun-specific Mag Plus (35 shell drum AA-12? Hell, anything that isn't the Joceline, Mosconi, or Judge gonna have over 20). Saw is secondary by default now (I don't see a primary option? Is that going to be a gimme now? lmao if they break the OVE72000 cheevo). Bullseye, what are you doing there? Man, this is weird. I guess I get to worry less about climbing three different Fugitive trees to get Bullseye, Akimbo, and Sneaky Bastard though. Oh and picking up new throwables from ammo boxes? Molotovs for dayyyyyys ClonedPickle fucked around with this message at 15:13 on Mar 25, 2016 |
#
?
Mar 25, 2016 15:03
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 14, 2024 02:38 |
|
|
I'm not super thrilled with enforcer's changes, but I guess it could be worse. That's a huge investment for shotguns though, yeah. Good thing I've been getting into pistols. I'm loving the low cost of entry for flashbang reduction and bag/saw skills though.
|
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2016 15:06
|
|
|
Some things I noticed: - Aced Close By sounds like it could be REALLY fun with the Steakout/IZHMA. - Flashbang resistance is now a tier 1 ace instead of tier 3, which is gonna save a shitload of points. - Transporter's changes imply that there's no more slowed bag carrying. Which is good, because that was idiotic and only really applied to people who were level 0 or idiots. - Bullseye is a lot weaker; it was awesome on suit/LBV builds. Since it's on the path to ICTV, it's a lot less handy. - Stable Shot seems kinda poo poo. - Portable Saw Basic specifies using the saw as a secondary - which implies you no longer need a skill to use it as your primary. - Ammunition Specialist is really poorly placed, and that's going to have a big impact. Ammo bags were really easy to come by before, since they were a cheap step enroute to where you were going anyway. - Fully Loaded Ace giving back throwables is huge.
|
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2016 15:08
|
|
|
Discendo Vox posted:Enforcer skillz: Holy poo poo that shotgun tree is terrible. Just to be clear, to gain the benefits currently considered mandatory or nigh-mandatory (+35% DMG, -50% reload, Overkill basic) you're gonna need to spend 23 of your 104 skill points with the consolation prize of getting basic in either Close By or Far Away. I'm gonna go ahead and guess Close By ace is gonna be very hard to skip for anyone who likes running things that aren't the Judge, Mosconi, or Joceline, though. Also gonna guess "shotguns with magazines" includes poo poo with individual-feed tube mags like the Loco but god knows with these Swedes  .Putting Bullseye in the Armorer subtree reveals that Overkill might not actually know how sick that is for suit dodge builds. It's not so bad considering Transporter ace is a 10-point buy that is gonna be mandatory for nearly every build and will get you Stun Resistance ace as a further bonus.  Having to invest 18 points in Ammunition Specialist just to get double-stuffed ammo bags is terrible. One of Technician's two good skills made it into the Enforcer tree so get ready for a bunch of hot garbage next week. e: as a memory jog, here's how much it costs to climb a subtree  and you're getting 1 point per level with an additional 4 for the first few infamies for a total of 104 possible points. Dr Cheeto fucked around with this message at 15:36 on Mar 25, 2016 |
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2016 15:12
|
|
|
Overkill might not realize how great Bullseye is for suit/LBV builds (or they might, and might be trying to balance dodge builds vs. armor builds or something), but yeah, I don't think it will be a huge deal since acing Oppressor and Transporter will get you that far anyway, and it's not like dodge builds need to ace Bullseye. I'm just hoping I have enough points to grab Die Hard, too. 28 (Inspire aced) + 10 (Endurance aced) + 4 (Stable Shot aced. What? I like hitting snipers with pistols) + 13 (Bullseye basic) = 55; 49 points still left to work with for any Ghost QOL skills that don't become default and whatever bullshit I have to climb in Fugitive. This seems doable. Hell, maybe if I have points left over I can ace Die Hard and grab Iron Man basic since apparently bullets can stagger shields too, drat ClonedPickle fucked around with this message at 15:34 on Mar 25, 2016 |
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2016 15:24
|
|
|
Dr Cheeto posted:Holy poo poo that shotgun tree is terrible. 24 points works out to 27.6 converted points from the old system, which isn't too bad - pricier thanks to not scooping up all the massively important/powerful Enforcer tricks along the way but I'd say that's a pretty acceptable price for working in shotguns as a primary for a build. Can't wait to bowl over shields with my lovely Reinfeld too. And it makes getting kicking rad in shotguns dead easy and dead obvious for a newbie which I consider to be a big plus. Ammo Specialist seems a bit weird, though. But that might just be because I usually walk past saw. Still, grenades coming in boxes seems to be a pretty big carrot so optimistic! Would probably like to see the custom shotgun ammo thing taken off, if only because it seems kinda like an unnecessary dampener to it. EDIT: I'm taking this based on the assumption that things are to be balanced around 28 points for a capstone, that said, rather than how much I need to fit in after the myriad things I've been buying because they're compulsory for a good time. It seems like a lot of the QoL stuff is getting rolled into the base experience anyway so gonna wait and see for it. Pingcode fucked around with this message at 15:39 on Mar 25, 2016 |
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2016 15:36
|
|
|
Bulletstorm basic...
|
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2016 15:39
|
|
|
E: ^^^ I think that's a typo. 10 with the 1 cut off. My concern now that I'm looking at things is that we're going to start seeing a shortage of deployables. Before you were pretty much assured that every build was going to incorporate at least one, because they were easy stepping stones enroute to things you wanted (Inspire, Iron Man, etc). Now that they're isolated off (particularly ammo), we're going to be seeing a lot more builds that outright don't have space to take full-sized deployables. I also find it ironic that someone who brings double-stuffed ammo bags is going to usually be the one that needs them the least.
|
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2016 15:42
|
|
|
Dr Cheeto posted:Also gonna guess "shotguns with magazines" includes poo poo with individual-feed tube mags like the Loco but god knows with these Swedes Until proven otherwise, I'm assuming they mean detachable box/drum magazines, because Overkill.
|
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2016 15:48
|
|
|
Didn't mag plus specify magazines but work for tube fed ones?
|
|
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2016 15:53
|
|
|
I think there's a lot of good ideas in that Enforcer rework, but maybe that's because a lot of them are very similar to ideas I've cooked up in the past (Aced Stable Shot sounds familiar, as well as messing with shotgun reload...). However, much like my own attempts to reconfigure skill trees, it really feels like they struggled to squeeze everything in and place everything nicely. I'm not sure how to feel about making flashbang protection entry-level, for instance. On the other hand, I'm curious to see how having Oppressor be massively more common will affect things. Unsurprisingly, a lot of turmoil over these reworks is that they're blatantly forcing you to have to start making hard decisions about your build instead of just tossing points between all five classes and coming out of it with just about everything you could possibly need. For jerks like me that have always wanted more class specialization, this sounds promising, for people who wanted every tree to be like Enforcer where you can take every useful skill and have tons of points left over to fill out an entire second tree or whatever, it's going to ruffle feathers. Unless they pull new deployables out of their rear end for Ghost and Fugitive* it seems like Ammo Specialist might be a sensible secondary tree for health regen builds. Overall, with how these trees are laid out, I'm thinking we're going to start seeing some more interesting combinations of trees compared to the fairly stagnant stuff we have currently. *I can't help but have this notion that they might throw their hands up and just nuke Ghost entirely, and just give Fugitive a filler "PUT ALL THE POINTS HERE IF YOU WANT TO STEALTH" tree and call it a day. Either that or safely shove all the stealth stuff over to Ghost and basically make it its own little walled off class to go along with the Burglar deck. Tempest_56 posted:I also find it ironic that someone who brings double-stuffed ammo bags is going to usually be the one that needs them the least. That's pretty much how it is already.
|
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2016 15:57
|
|
|
John Murdoch posted:Unsurprisingly, a lot of turmoil over these reworks is that they're blatantly forcing you to have to start making hard decisions about your build instead of just tossing points between all five classes and coming out of it with just about everything you could possibly need. For jerks like me that have always wanted more class specialization, this sounds promising, for people who wanted every tree to be like Enforcer where you can take every useful skill and have tons of points left over to fill out an entire second tree or whatever, it's going to ruffle feathers. Locking most of what makes a class of weapons good behind a pretty intensive subtree is dicks. Like, I'm fine with ICTV requiring acing a top-tier skill and getting less overall utility along the way (it's a little ridiculous that I can do poo poo like this and get away with most of the rifle bonuses, Inspire ace, Iron man basic, all the movement skills, acing ammo bags and doctor bags, and still have room for drill skills), but when you've got a class of weapons requiring that much investment to remain competitive with SMGs and Rifles there's a problem. Getting Inspire ace, Iron Man ace, and Overkill basic in the most efficient way possible costs 78 of your 104 points (28, 28, and 22 points respectively) and we don't know what QoL skills might live in the last three trees. "Make shotguns great again" should not require almost the same amount of points as "shout teammates up also here's FAKs or doc bags, go nuts". Dr Cheeto fucked around with this message at 16:13 on Mar 25, 2016 |
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2016 16:05
|
|
|
Explosionface posted:Until proven otherwise, I'm assuming they mean detachable box/drum magazines, because Overkill. Current Mag Plus text specifies "weapon magazine," works on shotgun tube magazines just fine. Locomotive and Reinfeld have Extended Mag mods, under a "Magazine" category. They're not going to make a skill work on only the Saiga-12 and AA-12, it's going to work with everything but the double barrels and Judge. Ghost will probably have two trees almost entirely dedicated to stealth, and we'll see how much mileage they get out of suppressor skills and whatever else is useful for loud to fill up a tree. SMG skills beyond reload speed/fire rate increase? ...Nine Lives? ........Moving Target? Blech. I'm hoping Fugitive has a tree entirely devoted to stealth so I don't have to put points into it. If Sneaky Bastard and Akimbo are atop separate trees (very likely) that'll be 44 points to get basic in each. Kinda sucks that they just introduced an Akimbo weapon that doesn't benefit from pistol skills but rather SMG skills, but Akimbo will likely be locked away behind a bunch of pistol skills that won't benefit the Heathers. Does Hitman still suck? Probably, no health regen without sinking a lot of points for Hostage Taker, which kinda ruins the point of taking a perk deck to avoid filling out a skill tree.
|
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2016 16:11
|
|
|
ClonedPickle posted:Does Hitman still suck? Probably, no health regen without sinking a lot of points for Hostage Taker, which kinda ruins the point of taking a perk deck to avoid filling out a skill tree. It's not great but it's not bad, either. Removing the armor penalty went a long way towards making it better, and the 5s guaranteed armor regen is real nice for turrets that suppress your regen through solid walls. The fact remains there is no other way to shout friends up, wear ICTV, and use two guns at the same time. Dumping 4-12 skillpoints in Hostage Taker is a much smaller price to pay IMO. Dr Cheeto fucked around with this message at 16:22 on Mar 25, 2016 |
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2016 16:17
|
|
|
Dr Cheeto posted:Locking most of what makes a class of weapons good behind a pretty intensive subtree is dicks. Like, I'm fine with ICTV requiring acing a top-tier skill and getting less overall utility along the way (it's a little ridiculous that I can do poo poo like this and get away with most of the rifle bonuses, Inspire ace, Iron man basic, all the movement skills, acing ammo bags and doctor bags, and still have room for drill skills), but when you've got a class of weapons requiring that much investment to remain competitive with SMGs and Rifles there's a problem. I don't disagree with your overall sentiment, but I'm not sure that I agree that basic Overkill is mandatory to make shotguns competitive. It also remains to be seen what they're actually doing with (non-single fire) rifles and SMGs; at the very least it's pretty likely they'll be getting their own subtree(s), so there will at least be some parity there. That said, this really boils down to more awkward gun balance bullshit that will probably need to be ironed out. It's troubling that they didn't really mention any further gun balance changes despite all of these trees making crazy changes to weapon use. While we're on the subject, it's also pretty lame how they didn't do anything to make Aced Overkill worth a drat, aside from indirectly buffing it by giving more incentives to use the saw as a weapon. It also doesn't really make any sense for a Shotgunner skill to be focused on buffing Not Shotguns. Edit: And for what it's worth, I've never really liked static damage buff skills to begin with. I personally would've chucked them out entirely and buffed the base damage of shotguns and pistols to compensate. But outside of that, I wouldn't be the slightest bit opposed to stealing some of Overkill's damage bonus and adding it to Shotgun Impact to ensure that you don't have to climb the full tree just to have basic shotgun proficiency. John Murdoch fucked around with this message at 16:37 on Mar 25, 2016 |
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2016 16:22
|
|
|
Dr Cheeto posted:It's not great but it's not bad, either. Removing the armor penalty went a long way towards making it better, and the 5s guaranteed armor regen is real nice for turrets that suppress your regen through solid walls. I'm looking towards the future, where you can't just easily grab Hostage Taker after acing Inspire. I've used a Hitman/ICTV build before and it's fun, but not fun enough to keep in my five slots. Overkill give me more skill build slots. I guess my hope is that SMG skills are added to the skill tree that pistol skills will be in and Akimbo will top off, just so I don't have about a month to have fun with the Heathers before they're horribly sub-optimal. Also hoping more akimbo SMGs are coming soon - would be a good way to make the non-Jacket's Piece MAC-10 relevant again. ClonedPickle fucked around with this message at 16:31 on Mar 25, 2016 |
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2016 16:28
|
|
|
ClonedPickle posted:I'm looking towards the future, where you can't just easily grab Hostage Taker after acing Inspire. I've used a Hitman/ICTV build before and it's fun, but not fun enough to keep in my five slots. Overkill give me more skill build slots. Oh, for sure. I'd assume the current akimbo skill would sit at the top of a tree in Fugitive, so you'd be using a mediocre perk deck to avoid spending a minimum of 22 points...and then just dumping them in Hostage Taker. It might be okay if the other hostage taker bonuses are extremely your poo poo and the other akimbo tree bonuses aren't? Dr Cheeto fucked around with this message at 16:45 on Mar 25, 2016 |
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2016 16:32
|
|
|
Love the changes to the tree, Enforcer was too good imo and some of those changes are incredible (picking up throwables, bullets staggering shields, shotgun range). We'll see where shotguns are without skills, but spending 24 points to get an incredible ammo efficient weapon is not unreasonable. Yea i know, assault rifles are already that without skills but also consider that a rifle is not a goddamned shotgun  I'm looking forward to how the rest of the trees are now, build variety might actually be a thing! Tempest_56 posted:I also find it ironic that someone who brings double-stuffed ammo bags is going to usually be the one that needs them the least. Yes, and its great because this is a team game and the guy who is chock full of ammo should be providing it to his crime buddies not taking it for himself.
|
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2016 16:38
|
|
|
I still maintain that it's a little premature to worry about how post-rework Enforcer compares to the current trends. Also - is it really true that you need all that poo poo to make Shotguns good anymore? I mean yeah, shotguns took a nerf during the weapon rebalance but I haven't had any difficulty shooting mans with them. I guess a more focused design question is: what weapon am I "supposed" to use if I don't put any points into weapon specialization?
|
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2016 17:03
|
|
|
Mendrian posted:I guess a more focused design question is: what weapon am I "supposed" to use if I don't put any points into weapon specialization? Rifles and SMGs do benefit from skills but by no means require them. Pistols are fine without skills, too, but they generally have small magazines and are a lot more fun with Gunslinger basic. Shotgun Impact ace's damage bonus is positively necessary if you're using shotguns as anything other than shield-killing HE cannons. The current Shotgun CQB basic provides a reload bonus, which is very important for the vast majority of tubular-magazine shotguns. The new CQB basic provides half the bonus, but I think that'll be fine. I'd argue Overkill basic as necessary, but others disagree. It's difficult for me to remain ammo-efficient if I can't make my loco hit harder. I suppose it's less important for the judge, mosconi, and jocelin which already have pretty ridiculous damage numbers but I wouldn't take the others to deathwish without it.
|
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2016 17:17
|
|
|
Mendrian posted:Also - is it really true that you need all that poo poo to make Shotguns good anymore? I mean yeah, shotguns took a nerf during the weapon rebalance but I haven't had any difficulty shooting mans with them. If I remember correctly, Overkill explicitly mentioned (during the post-rebalance clusterfuck) that in their balancing of shotguns, they assumed all users had all of those skills as the baseline. So, probably?
|
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2016 17:21
|
|
|
Tempest_56 posted:If I remember correctly, Overkill explicitly mentioned (during the post-rebalance clusterfuck) that in their balancing of shotguns, they assumed all users had all of those skills as the baseline. So, probably? Jules also explicitly mentioned Underdog basic's damage bonus when talking about the damage nerfs which is pretty lol considering it isn't a shotgun-specific skill and pretty much anyone who wants Stun Resistance ace (read: everyone with eyes) will probably pick it up. Now it at least lives in the Shotgunner tree.
|
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2016 17:28
|
|
|
"i came out here to think about bowie. just... really bummed out. R-I-P mate." is up there for one of the best pager answers in the game. goddamn i love jimmy
|
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2016 17:30
|
|
|
Dr Cheeto posted:Jules also explicitly mentioned Underdog basic's damage bonus when talking about the damage nerfs which is pretty lol considering it isn't a shotgun-specific skill and pretty much anyone who wants Stun Resistance ace (read: everyone with eyes) will probably pick it up. 
|
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2016 17:31
|
|
|
Literal Nazi Furry posted:"i came out here to think about bowie. just... really bummed out. R-I-P mate." is up there for one of the best pager answers in the game. goddamn i love jimmy When Bowie died I had to bite down on a million venture brothers jokes because Sykic was in the room and had never seen the show I finally got to unbottle on Tuesday but it wasn't the same 
|
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2016 17:34
|
|
|
Good to see we're finally getting Akimbo Lootbags.
|
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2016 17:47
|
|
|
Mendrian posted:I still maintain that it's a little premature to worry about how post-rework Enforcer compares to the current trends. Also - is it really true that you need all that poo poo to make Shotguns good anymore? I mean yeah, shotguns took a nerf during the weapon rebalance but I haven't had any difficulty shooting mans with them. It really helps with ammo efficiency and if you bring a primary that needs solid backup e.g sniper rifles, bows and grenade launchers. By alternating weapon usage and using overkill basic whenever possible, you can stretch ammo pickups. I can't imagine the other two trees being any worse at curbing my playstyle than enforcer, I might as well ditch shotguns and stick to using pistols if the devs insist in keeping them in the timeout corner. 
|
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2016 17:51
|
|
|
Bullets staggering shields is bad though? Like, impossibly bad, because you should never do it. Ever.
|
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2016 18:03
|
|
|
Oh my god I want everything in that enforcer tree. I figured a tree would be a combination of melee and shotguns, not just shotguns... dedicating an entire tree to it seems like a waste.
|
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2016 18:10
|
|
|
Wow. Some of that is not terrible. The +15 rounds thing? Pretty solid. Making flashbang resistance more accessible? Excellent. A bunch of it is piping-hot garbage, though. Sighting speed for shotguns? Stability bonus? Give me a break, Overkill. Spreading saw skills over two trees and multiple entries? No. Bullets staggering shields? I... Just bring HE or slugs, Jesus.
|
|
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2016 18:13
|
|
|
A fair bit of those shotgun skills are simply combining a lot of junk we have already that nobody takes. There are way fewer skills overall in these new skills so this makes a lot of sense. However, shotguns already have a high skill point tax and this is only gonna make the tax higher so I foresee myself ignoring that crap completely and instead bringing something that explodes
|
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2016 18:16
|
|
|
LuciferMorningstar posted:Bullets staggering shields? I... Just bring HE or slugs, Jesus. It does have some potential on builds. It'll go great on my LMG-focused endurance build - I won't have to un-bipod and HE them. Just hold down the trigger and keep firing.
|
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2016 18:34
|
|
Tempest_56 posted:It does have some potential on builds. It'll go great on my LMG-focused endurance build - I won't have to un-bipod and HE them. Just hold down the trigger and keep firing. I mean yeah, you can do stuff with it. But it has a very gimmicky flavor, to me.
|
|
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2016 18:40
|
|
|
Complaints aside, I do see more flexibility here. If you used to be a masterforcer, you can now run up two subtrees to get your signature goodies, and then splash the rest of your points anywhere else you like.
|
|
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2016 18:46
|
|
|
It's a brave new world out there, but once we've seen anything, rest assured that The One True Build(tm) will be discovered and brought to the masses. I do agree though that we're going to see a lot more builds and consumables might be an actual issue. Which is a great, yet subtle change to the difficult curve. No idea how they are going to fix the tech tree, the upper bit of ghost, and then still have enough crap to make a fugitive tree. I hope dodge builds make it out okay.
|
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2016 19:13
|
|
|
Gotta say that x years in, I'd rather have them jumble things up like this and surprise me to switch up the repetition than to keep running with what I have. I think now you just have to choose what you're going for with a build more, instead of just saying that "These are the most useful things, and I want all of them."
|
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2016 19:25
|
|
|
I'm guessing 2 bags removes weapon ability and that trigger button throws the first bag.
|
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2016 20:44
|
|
|
 Said pub was running Hitman with all of his points in Ghost. Among other things, he aced Dead Presidents but only had basic in Sprinter.
|
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2016 20:46
|
|
|
Holy poo poo I didn't even see the two bags before. That seems awesome. Tech is next, can't wait to see what they do there since that is the often most complained about tree.
|
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2016 20:52
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 14, 2024 02:38 |
|
|
It was a slow day at work but gently caress it I'm just copying my Steam forums post verbatim. The more I look at this the more I find problems with it. I apologize if I'm repeating anyone else's points. - Dedicating an entire sub tree to shotguns is absolutely terrible. As they are they already require a lot of points as well as giving up good ammo pickup to be good. I haven't done the math.... maybe it's the same number of points spent but this time I am not picking up quality of life skills while cimbing to shotgun skills - Similar to how Mastermind got a Sharpshooter tree I would combine shotgun skills with melee skills into a close combat subtree instead. - Far Away is the new Hard Boiled. Close by will be good at least. - I am afraid for Technician when the reasons I used it (mag plus and bulletproof) are now in Enforcer. ICTV and bulletproof in one tree sounds insanely OP. - Ammo bags cost too much to take along with armor. - Making shield bashing RNG based on weapon damage is a dumb idea. The trade off now is you give up an actual melee weapon for shield bashing effectively. Now there's no reason not to take the melee weapons with the biggest numbers. - Making run and shoot shotgun exclusive is another one I have an issue with. Yes it is most effective with shotguns, but it is useful for all weapons. - Are shotguns getting a buff or is the nerf to Underdog a typo?
|
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2016 20:53
|
|