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ChickenWing posted:I think it's already palatable to people. I continue to hold the opinion that a majority of problems with the book are higher-ended literary ones, and to the public at large they're still an enjoyable read. Plus unless you use the narrator's voice extensively throughout, we're not going to get any "sharp stone in swift water" metaphors. Nearly the entirety of the second book isn't a high-end literary problem, it's a "the first book sold well so we're not even going to pretend to edit your poo poo" problem.
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Mar 18, 2016 14:54
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ChickenWing posted:I think it's already palatable to people. I continue to hold the opinion that a majority of problems with the book are higher-ended literary ones, and to the public at large they're still an enjoyable read. Plus unless you use the narrator's voice extensively throughout, we're not going to get any "sharp stone in swift water" metaphors. That's what I was thinking. Like, because it's television, you won't have the weird, half-baked metaphors, and the lack of flowery language can make it sort of a straight-up magic action show. At the same time, though, without the political intrigue and brutality and sex that happens in GoT, can it really stand as a straight-up magic action show? mallamp posted:I think it will be worse, the cliche plot elements will be more apparent without all the fat that surrounds them. Only chance it could be good was if it got GoT level budget indeed and awesome sets would distract people instead of prose/filler. The rights are with Lionsgate right now, apparently, so who knows how much money will get thrown at it.
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Mar 18, 2016 14:59
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I see a lot of ways the TV show could be pretty good. I also see a lot of ways it could go off the rails. It's basically going to come down to how much power the producers have over Rothfuss and how large a knife they can take to the source material.
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Mar 18, 2016 15:13
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ChickenWing posted:I think it's already palatable to people. I continue to hold the opinion that a majority of problems with the book are higher-ended literary ones, and to the public at large they're still an enjoyable read. Plus unless you use the narrator's voice extensively throughout, we're not going to get any "sharp stone in swift water" metaphors. I haven't described a single high-ended literary problem in my read-through. e: Like the book being classist is not a high-ended literary problem, neither is the story being about nothing, and neither is it being decidedly non-fantastical for fantasy, etc. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 15:41 on Mar 18, 2016 |
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Mar 18, 2016 15:38
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I think the TV show will have a tone problem. Reading about a child in a novel targeted at adults is different than watching a TV show about a child. Especially one where there isn't a gruff adult to play off of (like The Hound in GoTs) If they go full legend of the seeker I will love every episode. That show was unintentionally amazing.
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Mar 18, 2016 16:35
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Benson Cunningham posted:I think the TV show will have a tone problem. Reading about a child in a novel targeted at adults is different than watching a TV show about a child. Especially one where there isn't a gruff adult to play off of (like The Hound in GoTs) They'll probably age Kvothe up a bit for the show, much like they had to age everyone up for the Ender's Game movie.
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Mar 18, 2016 18:10
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It's a modern fantasy tv series, something like 'physical age' will be pretty irrelevant. All characters will be be played by embarassed models who are 23-30 but look like 19-year-old roleplayers in their badly fitting costumes
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Mar 18, 2016 19:07
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jivjov posted:They'll probably age Kvothe up a bit for the show, much like they had to age everyone up for the Ender's Game movie. There has to be a better example of this than Ender's Game, because that wasn't a good movie. mallamp posted:It's a modern fantasy tv series, something like 'physical age' will be pretty irrelevant. All characters will be be played by embarassed models who are 23-30 but look like 19-year-old roleplayers in their badly fitting costumes I mean, Kvothe is supposed to be 15 by the time he's in University, right? And he's the youngest person there, IIRC. It can't be too hard to find a decent-enough ~15 year old to play him, and then exactly what you describe for basically everybody else.
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Mar 18, 2016 19:18
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Thanks to 90's/00's trend the depressed/crazy ex-child actor quota is pretty full atm though, not sure if they want to breed more Jack Gleeson was disappointing though, I think everyone expected something way edgier than theology from such twisted looking bro and now that he didn't even become a shady priest or suicidal academic, I guess we could use another mallamp fucked around with this message at 19:40 on Mar 18, 2016 |
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Mar 18, 2016 19:37
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I feel like Lies of Locke Lamora would have been a ridiculously good show on HBO.
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Mar 18, 2016 21:45
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SpacePig posted:There has to be a better example of this than Ender's Game, because that wasn't a good movie. That was the first thing I could think of that had to radically change the age of a character, because there's no way you're getting 5-8 year olds to act in Ender's Game. Then again, that movie did have to age up pretty much everyone.
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Mar 18, 2016 21:47
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Unless whoever's in charge of adapting it really takes charge and changes a bunch of poo poo, a TV show version is probably just gonna highlight the flaws in the story because there's less poo poo to distract you from how little is happening at any given time
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Mar 18, 2016 21:57
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If they actually make a TV-show out of this, it's going to be boring as gently caress.
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Mar 18, 2016 22:00
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Has anyone seen the TV version of The Magicians? It.... is really, really bad. It's such a morass I don't know how to begin explaining it. Basically the only thing it shares with the source material is the starting setup and the character's names.
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Mar 18, 2016 22:01
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jivjov posted:That was the first thing I could think of that had to radically change the age of a character, because there's no way you're getting 5-8 year olds to act in Ender's Game. I know you're not gonna get a real-rear end six year old to perform a dramatic role in a major motion picture, and also have them perform it well. At the same time, though, his age plays a pretty big role in the story. Having as big a gap between the ages in Ender's Game was off-putting. A sixteen year old wouldn't typically react the same way to things like missing his family and fighting a bully as a six year old would. By extension, the scenes end up playing differently. I'm not saying it can't be done. Game of Thrones did this for a few characters, as far as I know, and everything still works incredibly well. I'm just saying that some adjustment beyond just their ages needs to be done. TheIncredulousHulk posted:Unless whoever's in charge of adapting it really takes charge and changes a bunch of poo poo, a TV show version is probably just gonna highlight the flaws in the story because there's less poo poo to distract you from how little is happening at any given time With all of the Supernatural and Teen Wolf style stuff on TV right now, I wouldn't be surprised if it was still pretty successful despite this.
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Mar 18, 2016 22:10
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Flattened Spoon posted:I'm looking forward to a Legend-of-the-Seeker kind of redux myself. This seems more likely than an HBO GoT-level show. SpacePig posted:There has to be a better example of this than Ender's Game, because that wasn't a good movie. They aged up everyone in GoT because I think even HBO might've had issues with a bunch of sex scenes involving minors, like a 14yr old Dany.
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Mar 18, 2016 22:18
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Evil Fluffy posted:They aged up everyone in GoT because I think even HBO might've had issues with a bunch of sex scenes involving minors, like a 14yr old Dany. Them being older would have been better in the books too.
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Mar 18, 2016 22:21
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There simply isn't enough meat left in either the story/plot or the setting divorced from the hackneyed prose to make a decent series without making it a dramatic departure from the source material, IMO. Locke Lamora would be amazing though.
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Mar 18, 2016 23:21
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Benson Cunningham posted:Has anyone seen the TV version of The Magicians? It.... is really, really bad. It's such a morass I don't know how to begin explaining it. Basically the only thing it shares with the source material is the starting setup and the character's names. Now that is unfair. They made sure to include fox loving from the source material.
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Mar 19, 2016 17:00
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Dienes posted:Now that is unfair. They made sure to include fox loving from the source material. I really don't remember anything about that book other then people with magic do hosed up things and live lives completely 100% divorced from what normal people do and also other magic people.
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Mar 20, 2016 21:36
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Benson Cunningham posted:I feel like Lies of Locke Lamora would have been a ridiculously good show on HBO.
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Mar 21, 2016 16:24
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TV is better for all entertainment, books only have upperhand when writing art prose, BUT the problem with fantasy is that you need big budget or it's just embarassing. There's solution (animation), but it's shunned (unjustly, it's not Shakespeare, you don't need real actors). I'd live to see Camorr on screen.. Name of Wind has more generic world, it's easier to adapt at least
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Mar 21, 2016 21:44
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I guess TV is better for entertainment if your imagination is poo poo. I feel like they both have Pros and Cons.
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Mar 22, 2016 00:18
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When is Doors of Stone coming out?
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Mar 22, 2016 09:35
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Hey Teapot, have you read The Dagger and the Coin by Daniel Abraham? I ask because it's the best fantasy series I've read since I was 15 (21 years ago), it's 5 books, and it's done. This guy churns out books like Brandon Sanderson, but he's not a Mormon, so... You know. They're human. Somehow, it's not airport fiction though. The characters are real, and the books are about something. I'm curious if you think they're about the same things I do. I can't follow your critiques of Rothfuss. It just seems like you're just making up random points about things I don't care about that aren't important at that point in the story with extended quotes that don't support your theses. I think Kingkiller is good; and patient, cut-flower sound is a good metaphor. Consider the gauntlet thrown. Tell me The Dagger and the Coin is bad.
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Mar 22, 2016 10:22
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I'm calling you out, Teapot: tell me why Barry Sadler's Casca books are poo poo.
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Mar 22, 2016 12:46
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Still waiting for Teapot's answer. LET’S READ THE KINGKILLER CHRONICLE CRITICALLY Part 16: “I started the ponderous conversion between currencies, then smiled as I realized it was unnecessary.” Thirty-five chapters later, we’re well into The Name of the Wind. There’s been a lot of adventure and anecdote, but none it has been substantial or satisfying. This is because Rothfuss never makes the episodes of the narrative satisfying stories on their own. They’re events that occupy the pages until something else happens. Kvothe learns from Ben until Ben leaves abruptly. He’s part of a troupe of entertainers until they’re murdered. He lives a near-feral life on the streets until he hears a story that brings him back to normal. He cons his way into respectability to invalidate the last ten or so chapters. He travels with Denna until they also depart. Now he’s about to enter Hogwarts. The equivalent point in Baudolino is the sixth chapter, when Baudolino enters the University of Paris at the age of sixteen. At this point Baudolino and his story have been established quite well: he is the world’s greatest fantasist. The equivalent point in Mika Waltari’s The Egyptian is the end of Book 4, where Sinuhe is leaving Egypt and the ruins of his life behind to go to self-imposed exile. the story is stuffed with adventure and anecdote. For example, Sinuhe is introduced to the royal court, and by accident has to take care of the divinely mad heir to the throne. This is one chapter (in an abridged edition, granted). Sinuhe discovering that religions are false, learning surgery, losing his property and family to vanity and lust, committing social suicide just to afford his parent’s burial, and defiling the Valley of Kings are just a handful of episodes early on in the book. It’s amazing how the story can tell so much without ever feeling rushed or burdened. This is not even mentioning Waltari’s fascinating portrayal of Ancient Egypt. Rothfuss’s story is utterly uneventful in comparison. In Chapter 36, “Less Talents,” Kvothe sleeps rough outside his destination, Imre. I’ve talked earlier about how prosaic Rothfuss’ fantasy world is. His description of a magical school and the city surrounding it are telling: quote:As I walked, I watched the horizon for the largest building in the University. From Ben’s descriptions I knew what it would look like: featureless, grey, and square as a block. Larger than four granaries stacked together. No windows, no decorations, and only one set of great stone doors. Ten times ten thousand books. The Archives. Now this is all perfectly serviceable, but it’s just that – serviceable. Rothfuss’s choice of word is strangely dull when we’ve dealt with silences as deep and wide as autumn’s ending and gossamer spun from a lute. Like I’ve said, he keeps switching between influences like The Last Unicorn and Dungeons & Dragons. The image conveyed is of stone monuments and of a bourgeois town. But nothing is described as truly monumental, and the town is lifeless. Rothfuss successfully conveys a prosaic scene.  Kvothe goes into the Archives, where he’s informed that entry is limited to students. He rushes in to the examinations, which are still being held. The examination involves being questioned by the university masters, and after some time it’s Kvothe’s turn. quote:Two hours later I was in Hollows, fighting down a sour stomach and climbing up onto the stage of an empty theater. The room was dark except for the wide circle of light that held the masters’ table. I walked to stand at the edge of the light and waited. Slowly the nine masters stopped talking among themselves and turned to look at me. Kvothe is asked for qualifications, and he claims the book he pawned in Tarbean as his letter of recommendation. The masters allow for this, since it can be retrieved, except for the evil one who hates Kvothe. quote:The Chancellor gave a small nod. “Thank you, Master Lorren.” He settled himself back into his chair and folded his hands in front of himself. “Very well, then. What would Abenthy’s letter tell us, if he had written it?” Kvothe is then questioned, and impresses the masters with various bits of trivia and world-building factoids. He is actually cheating: quote:The speed and accuracy of my answers impressed them. Some of them hid it, others wore it openly on their faces. The truth was, I needed to impress them. I knew from my previous discussions with Ben that you needed money or brains to get into the University. The more of one you had, the less of the other you needed. The problem with this ties into what I discussed above. Rothfuss never really makes these episodes of the story satisfying. The above part would either work as set-up, or as a twist to the story. But here it is wasted. Kvothe sneaking into observe the proceedings would be a good set-up. Kvothe pulling out the rug under the reader by bitterly revealing that he cheated could be terrific. But here it’s add nothing, except to circumvent the last twenty or so chapters being mostly irrelevant to the story. And there’s nothing to differentiate from Kvothe is drawing on his knowledge and him cheating. So it’s just another signifier of Kvothe’s boring exceptionalism. The sequence in general is a rather dull stream of trivia and passing characterisation. We’re introduced to the next eccentric mentor, and also the antagonistic teacher, who is really just Severus Snape without the sympathetic side. That’s the only interesting thing about Hemme: that this intricately constructed and subversively original fantasy epic has a prominent villain who’s a shallow version of Severus Snape, a children’s book character. This incidentally also applies to the Draco Malfoy equivalent. They’re functionally the same, just nastier and without depth. How do you write shallow versions of children’s book characters? quote:One of the things I’d learned during my hour of quiet observation was this: Master Hemme was the king-high bastard of the lot. He took delight in student’s discomfort and did everything he could to badger and unsettle them. He had a fondness for trick questions. The eccentric teacher mixes things up with odd questions and general cheekiness: quote:“I too would ask some questions,” the man to the Chancellor’s right said. He had an accent that I couldn’t quite place. Or perhaps it was that his voice held a certain resonance. When he spoke, everyone at the desk stirred slightly, then grew still, like leaves touched by the wind. The interview is complete. Kvothe makes a point of hiding why he’s come to the University. And he has to get around tuition, being as he is penniless. quote:“I have a favor to ask beyond mere admission.” I took a deep breath, letting their attention settle on me. “It has taken me nearly three years to get here. I may seem young, but I belong here as much, if not more, than some rich lordling who can’t tell salt from cyanide by tasting it.” This would be entertaining if Kvothe were in the role of a roguish anti-hero, but this is actually framed as a matter of entitlement rather than ambition or whatnot. The mention of aristocrats is relevant, because when Rothfuss makes an assay at class satire, it’s usually in the form of a snide comment about nobility. But Kvothe has been established as coming from a privileged liberal background, and now he's a “temporarily embarrassed millionaire”. Aristocrats are in a way perfect targets, because it allows for Kvothe’s entitlement to be framed as class warfare. Kvothe belongs in the University, and the quest for the Chandrian is almost a side-note to this. The tuition is also the start of a dull and too long storyline about Kvothe’s fiscal insecurity, which will no doubt the source of much entitled whinging to come. The masters agree to Kvothe’s proposal, but he misinterprets their answer as denial due to ambiguous wording. Talents are too valuable to be carried around for Kvothe to steal. While he’s stunned, one of the masters approaches him with a note and a question about his father’s name: quote:“Did you say your father’s name was Arliden?” BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 09:27 on Mar 25, 2016 |
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Mar 24, 2016 23:36
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Not as much of a vivisection as your previous posts. I guess this chapter was a little better on the whole?
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Mar 25, 2016 00:01
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ChickenWing posted:Not as much of a vivisection as your previous posts. I guess this chapter was a little better on the whole? quote:He made a hmmmpfh noise and looked surprised. e: Like this isn't me being surprised. Rothfuss couldn't be bothered to write that a man harrumphed or grunted etc. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 13:14 on Mar 25, 2016 |
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Mar 25, 2016 00:19
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By the way, something I forgot to mention: Kvothe is capable of magic, and this has not been mentioned for twenty chapters before now.
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Mar 25, 2016 09:30
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The next half of the book is where I realized I was tuning out entire pages as I was reading them the first time. I had tried reading Harry Potter, but never got into it and this just seemed like Harry Potter with a tiny bit of sexuality/violence thrown into it. Not to mention a sniveling little poo poo of a protagonist instead of a kid filled with wonder at discovering magic knowledge for the first time. But the worst thing of all, the absolute worst for me, is that the Chandrian get almost no background or information except for a couple of paragraphs like 30 chapters in the future.
Solice Kirsk fucked around with this message at 19:27 on Mar 25, 2016 |
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Mar 25, 2016 19:24
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Solice Kirsk posted:The next half of the book is where I realized I was tuning out entire pages as I was reading them the first time. I had tried reading Harry Potter, but never got into it and this just seemed like Harry Potter with a tiny bit of sexuality/violence thrown into it. Not to mention a sniveling little poo poo of a protagonist instead of a kid filled with wonder at discovering magic knowledge for the first time. But the worst thing of all, the absolute worst for me, is that the Chandrian get almost no background or information except for a couple of paragraphs like 30 chapters in the future. Please don't insult harry potter like that.
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Mar 25, 2016 19:32
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The first four Harry Potter books are remarkable. The teen angst Harry Potter books hurt to read. Not saying their bad, but drat man, HP needs to balance dem hormones.
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Mar 25, 2016 20:16
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Finished up my re-read of TNotW and WMF last night. I still enjoy them and make no apologies for enjoying them.
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Mar 25, 2016 20:24
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Solice Kirsk posted:But the worst thing of all, the absolute worst for me, is that the Chandrian get almost no background or information except for a couple of paragraphs like 30 chapters in the future. I agree with this. The Chandrian are such an afterthought, especially after the first book. I really thought they were going to be more of a present force as things went on, and that we'd learn more about them by the second book. But we still only know legends at this point, and those are functionally nothing. jivjov posted:Finished up my re-read of TNotW and WMF last night. I still enjoy them and make no apologies for enjoying them. You don't need to. Chase your bliss and whatnot. Don't let this start an argument again. e: I'm not saying that you're necessarily the one that starts them. I'm just sort of imploring the thread not to devour itself again.
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Mar 25, 2016 20:28
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SpacePig posted:I agree with this. The Chandrian are such an afterthought, especially after the first book. I really thought they were going to be more of a present force as things went on, and that we'd learn more about them by the second book. But we still only know legends at this point, and those are functionally nothing. Yeah; I wish the "infodump" from the Cthaeh had somehow happened in Name of the Wind instead of delayed to WMF. Rothfuss does a decent enough job of having Kvothe inquire after the Chandrian and the Amyr everywhere he goes...but the complete lack of information he gets in return is rough.
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Mar 25, 2016 20:32
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Well, it's the closest WMF gets to anything like overarching plot.
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Mar 25, 2016 20:47
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jivjov posted:Finished up my re-read of TNotW and WMF last night. I still enjoy them and make no apologies for enjoying them. Retards don't need to apologize for their disability.
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Mar 25, 2016 21:09
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anilEhilated posted:Well, it's the closest WMF gets to anything like overarching plot. That and the creepy obsession with Denna, which almost entirely replaces the Chandrian as a character motivation. CerealCrunch posted:Retards don't need to apologize for their disability. Come on now. No need for this.
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Mar 25, 2016 21:10
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CerealCrunch posted:Retards don't need to apologize for their disability. Are ableist slurs really necessary?
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Mar 25, 2016 21:18
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