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Mofabio posted:It's funny, in the original argument, that Alzharad or whatever guy was going on and on about this. I asked him to calculate it, and he got super mad and demanded I pay him like $50/hr for his time. That was weird. The original Monarch population was really quite low in this particular area, so the dreaded evil GMO that sent aliens to abduct your family is doing a good job at restoring the natural amount. Mofabio posted:FWIW, the Obama administration's target is the 1996-2016 mean population. Which is a whole lot more monarch butterflies then were aroun int he area for most of the area's history. Kinda weird to do.
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Mar 25, 2016 19:39
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QuarkJets posted:And what if we support a 1995 concentration of milkweed on 1% of the pre-colonial land? By what? Farming milkweed? I mean, that would also work, but...
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Mar 25, 2016 19:42
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fishmech posted:The original Monarch population was really quite low in this particular area, so the dreaded evil GMO that sent aliens to abduct your family is doing a good job at restoring the natural amount. Was the original population an endangered species, at risk of extinction? Or did it manage to survive for tens of millions of years.
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Mar 25, 2016 19:46
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Mofabio posted:Was your point that farmers use herbicides to kill weeds? HAHAHAHAHAHA! No, using weedkiller to keep cropland for crop only is not the same as hunting a species to extinction. You're really bad at this. You're point would be valid if we were using glyophsphate across all lands and not just farm-able crop land. We're not. And you don't even grasp why farmers don't want milkweed in their farmland CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 19:58 on Mar 25, 2016 |
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Mar 25, 2016 19:52
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Mofabio posted:By what? Farming milkweed? 20th century concentrations of milkweed were very high despite nobody farming for milkweed specifically. You don't have to farm milkweed in order to have 20th century concentrations of milkweed
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Mar 25, 2016 19:54
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CommieGIR posted:HAHAHAHAHAHA! did you really laugh
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Mar 25, 2016 19:54
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Killer-of-Lawyers posted:The monarch population has some strong indicators over the past two years that attempts to reverse their decline are working. They've covered more land the past two years during their migration then they did the previous ones. That's like saying a two year cooling trend in the climate means we've begun to reverse global warming.
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Mar 25, 2016 19:54
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QuarkJets posted:20th century concentrations of milkweed were very high despite nobody farming for milkweed specifically. You don't have to farm milkweed in order to have 20th century concentrations of milkweed Where did the milkweed live in the 20th century, and why isn't it living there in the 21st century?
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Mar 25, 2016 19:55
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Mofabio posted:did you really laugh Still waiting for your answer as to why you don't grasp your chart as being really stupid.
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Mar 25, 2016 19:59
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CommieGIR posted:Still waiting for your answer as to why you don't grasp your chart as being really stupid. do you understand why i'm not going to answer that edit: here's the chart again 
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Mar 25, 2016 20:00
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Mofabio posted:do you understand why i'm not going to answer that Yes. The highlighted area is the desired result for farmers. We know.
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Mar 25, 2016 20:05
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Mofabio posted:Where did the milkweed live in the 20th century, and why isn't it living there in the 21st century? It lived in field land that didn't exist in pre-colonial Eastern America. By replacing forest land with field land, milkweed density increased significantly. Since we're not talking about replacing farmland with indigenous forest, we can benefit from the increased milkweed density of the 20th century. Telling farmers to stop being good at killing milkweed probably isn't going to work and is also counterproductive. So how about we set aside strips of land to milkweed cultivation instead? You don't need to farm it, it's a weed; it'll grow fine on its own if you let it.
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Mar 25, 2016 20:06
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Mofabio posted:do you understand why i'm not going to answer that I understand why you're not going to answer that. It's because you're an idiot who thinks that chart is profound when it's actually profoundly stupid
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Mar 25, 2016 20:07
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QuarkJets posted:Telling farmers to stop being good at killing milkweed probably isn't going to work and is also counterproductive. So how about we set aside strips of land to milkweed cultivation instead? You don't need to farm it, it's a weed; it'll grow fine on its own if you let it. So why isn't it living there in the 21st century? What new technology allowed farmers to eradicate milkweed from cropland?
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Mar 25, 2016 20:11
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Mofabio posted:do you understand why i'm not going to answer that NEWS FLASH! Farmers desire non-crap plants to be killed in their fields while sparing the crops! World shocked! Mofabio posted:So why isn't it living there in the 21st century? What new technology allowed farmers to eradicate milkweed from cropland? You dense motherfucker.
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Mar 25, 2016 20:13
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Nevvy Z posted:Yes. The highlighted area is the desired result for farmers. We know. What technology allows farmers to achieve this desired result?
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Mar 25, 2016 20:13
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CommieGIR posted:NEWS FLASH! Farmers desire non-crap plants to be killed in their fields while sparing the crops! World shocked! Good thing there were no unintended consequences Mofabio fucked around with this message at 20:17 on Mar 25, 2016 |
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Mar 25, 2016 20:14
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Mofabio posted:Was the original population an endangered species, at risk of extinction? Or did it manage to survive for tens of millions of years. It probably isn't actually at risk of extinction, but we never bothered recording populations until about the absolute peak of their population. But it's quite likely they would have eventually died out with the way milkweed grows int he wild in that region. poo poo happens. Mofabio posted:So why isn't it living there in the 21st century? What new technology allowed farmers to eradicate milkweed from cropland? No new technology allowed this.
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Mar 25, 2016 20:14
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fishmech posted:No new technology allowed this. Quoting for posterity. The milkweed must have disappeared on its own!
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Mar 25, 2016 20:16
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Anosmoman posted:GM is responsible for the monarch holocaust in the same way roads are responsible for climate change. Banning roads would be equivalent to banning cars but it's not a constructive way of dealing with the problem. This is a really good analogy that is the best thing to come out of this particular Mofabio derail. It should be the only thing that anyone posts in response to him. Though it's not a holocaust, since the Monarchs aren't being killed but are being prevented from breeding at replacement rates. In a fixed quotable form: GM is responsible for the rapid decline in monarch population the same way roads are responsible for climate change. Banning roads would be nearly equivalent to banning cars but it's not a constructive way of dealing with the problem. Tom Clancy is Dead fucked around with this message at 20:21 on Mar 25, 2016 |
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Mar 25, 2016 20:19
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Mofabio posted:Quoting for posterity. The milkweed must have disappeared on its own!  Again, how dense are you?
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Mar 25, 2016 20:20
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Mofabio posted:Quoting for posterity. The milkweed must have disappeared on its own! No new technology is required to kill milkweed. You'd understand this if you weren't so desperate to find anything to blame GMO for.
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Mar 25, 2016 20:26
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Etalommi posted:GM is responsible for the rapid decline in monarch population the same way roads are responsible for climate change. Banning roads would be nearly equivalent to banning cars but it's not a constructive way of dealing with the problem. Quoting because I agree! I'm arguing with people who believe there is no link between the monarch decline and GMOs. Literally, one guy just said "No new technology allowed [farmers to eradicate milkweed]." To be clear, Etalommi: you don't prefer banning GMOs to get monarchs off the endangered species list, but you agree that it would work, right? It's not your preferred solution, but you agree that there's a link between the monarchs, milkweed, and GMOs?
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Mar 25, 2016 20:26
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Mofabio posted:Quoting because I agree! I'm arguing with people who believe there is no link between the monarch decline and GMOs. Literally, one guy just said "No new technology allowed [farmers to eradicate milkweed]." No new technology was required to eradicate milkweed. That is a true statement. Farmers have been eradicating milkweed for generations. GMOs made it easier to eradicate milkweed, but are not responsible for it by themselves. That's a distinction you are either unable or unwilling to make.
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Mar 25, 2016 20:31
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Mofabio posted:Quoting because I agree! I'm arguing with people who believe there is no link between the monarch decline and GMOs. Literally, one guy just said "No new technology allowed [farmers to eradicate milkweed]." Banning GMOs will do nothing to get monarchs off the endangered species list.
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Mar 25, 2016 20:33
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Deteriorata posted:Farmers have been eradicating milkweed for generations. Farmers haven't been eradicating milkweed for generations. Only recently have farmers been able to eradicate milkweed, instead of merely killing most milkweed. GMOs didn't make it easier, they made eradication possible.
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Mar 25, 2016 20:35
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Mofabio posted:Farmers haven't been eradicating milkweed for generations. Only recently have farmers been able to eradicate milkweed, instead of merely killing most milkweed. GMOs didn't make it easier, they made eradication possible. Okay: 1. Why did you link us to a dictionary definition of eradicate you pedantic rear end in a top hat? 2. OF COURSE THEY HAVE BEEN. THEY DO NOT WANT IT IN WITH THEIR CROPS. Jesus loving christ how hard is this for you to get? They are not merrily dancing across the prairie wiping them out, they are killing it in their crop land. Where they do not want it. 3. GMOs had nothing to do with it. Farmers would still be erradicating it in their cropland without them (as you've already said yourself!)
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Mar 25, 2016 20:37
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Mofabio posted:Farmers haven't been eradicating milkweed for generations. Only recently have farmers been able to eradicate milkweed, instead of merely killing most milkweed. GMOs didn't make it easier, they made eradication possible. So your entire argument has devolved into semantics. Nice.
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Mar 25, 2016 20:37
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Mofabio posted:Farmers haven't been eradicating milkweed for generations. Only recently have farmers been able to eradicate milkweed, instead of merely killing most milkweed. GMOs didn't make it easier, they made eradication possible. GMOs don't make your pedantic definition of eradication possible. They don't work perfectly - there are naturally immune populations, as well as issues with dispersal and concentration.
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Mar 25, 2016 20:37
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Deteriorata posted:So your entire argument has devolved into semantics. Nice. I'm trying to figure out his warped argument, is he saying 'Yes, farmers have been trying to eradicate it from their fields for generations, but GMOs allowed them to be more successful' and says that like its a BAD thing?
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Mar 25, 2016 20:38
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Mofabio posted:So why isn't it living there in the 21st century? What new technology allowed farmers to eradicate milkweed from cropland? The part that you don't get is that your question doesn't matter. Farmers will continue finding new ways to eliminate milkweed, and the solution to this is not to play technological whack-a-mole. You solve this problem at its source: you set aside land for milkweed to grow on.
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Mar 25, 2016 20:39
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Mofabio posted:do you understand why i'm not going to answer that Your chart is trivially true but meaningless. Farmers want to kill milkweed. Farmers care about killing weeds including milkweed more than they care about butterflies. Farmers will use every available and affordable tool to kill weeds. You should be proposing that sufficient populations of weeds must be left alive, not that farmers use less effective tools to do the weed killing. 
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Mar 25, 2016 20:41
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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CommieGIR posted:3. GMOs had nothing to do with it. Farmers would still be erradicating it in their cropland without them (as you've already said yourself!) No, some milkweed survived tilling and herbicide use in cropland, pre-1996. What new technology allowed farmers to kill all of their milkweed?
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Mar 25, 2016 20:43
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Mofabio posted:To be clear, Etalommi: you don't prefer banning GMOs to get monarchs off the endangered species list, but you agree that it would work, right? It's not your preferred solution, but you agree that there's a link between the monarchs, milkweed, and GMOs? As best as I can tell they aren't on one? The FWS has initiated a review of it, http://www.fws.gov/cno/es/Monarch/Monarch.cfm, but monarchs have yet to be placed on the endangered species list. Tom Clancy is Dead fucked around with this message at 08:50 on Mar 26, 2016 |
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Mar 25, 2016 20:43
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Mofabio posted:No, some milkweed survived tilling and herbicide use in cropland, pre-1996. Some milkweed survives roundup application to HT fields, post-1996. No new technology allowed farmers to kill all of their milkweed.
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Mar 25, 2016 21:33
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Mofabio posted:No, some milkweed survived tilling and herbicide use in cropland, pre-1996. Dude you keep posting a bunch of idiotic bashful bullshit, what's your proposed solution to the milkweed problem? Ban HT GMOs? Ban herbicides that are good at killing milkweed? Ban non-organic farming? You just keep bitching and moaning about HT GMOs without ever getting to a point, what do you want to do to save Monarch butterflies, and why is that solution better than just setting aside milkweed habitats?
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Mar 26, 2016 01:56
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QuarkJets posted:Dude you keep posting a bunch of idiotic bashful bullshit, what's your proposed solution to the milkweed problem? Ban HT GMOs? Ban herbicides that are good at killing milkweed? Ban non-organic farming? You just keep bitching and moaning about HT GMOs without ever getting to a point, what do you want to do to save Monarch butterflies, and why is that solution better than just setting aside milkweed habitats? Honestly he's been quite clear that he believes all GMOs must go. I don't think you should bag him for not having a solution, he truly does have one he prefers and he's made it clear. It's a silly solution, but it is one.
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Mar 26, 2016 05:23
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fishmech posted:Honestly he's been quite clear that he believes all GMOs must go. I don't think you should bag him for not having a solution, he truly does have one he prefers and he's made it clear. It's a silly solution, but it is one. He then came back and tried to double down with 'Connect the Dots' bullshit about how, well, it wasn't really GMOs but the herbicides that were bad, BUT that means the GMOs were bad!
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Mar 26, 2016 05:31
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The anti-Mofabio crowd in this thread are acting like children.
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Mar 26, 2016 12:10
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Buller posted:The anti-Mofabio crowd in this thread are acting like children. So is Mofabio, honestly.
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