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Between Jessica Jones S1, and Jeri and Marcy's cameos this year, I got the impression that Jeri's big takeaway from almost being murdered by her exwife at Kilgrave's request was "superhero law is an exciting, potentially profitable new field," so it made sense to me that she'd aggressively pursue the only person in the MCU who's taken a superhero client to trial.
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Mar 26, 2016 19:09
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karen is very prretty
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Mar 26, 2016 20:12
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I hope Foggy ends up in a more good times kind of show because he's pretty great when he doesn't have to be pissed off and depressed because of all the poo poo his partner is doing to him.
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Mar 26, 2016 20:19
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grobbo posted:It wasn't just that one plotline was stuffed with action, thrills & character beats while moving quickly, and the other was slow and partially redundant. Despite moving at a snail's pace, Karen's story seemed remarkably uninvested in her, to the point that it just *ends* at the crucial moment when she's trying to escape from a suburban house as a vanful of hoodlums pulls up on the kerb. 'Oh, no! How is this character going to get out without being spotted?' 'Who cares, she's accomplished her goal of letting the camera focus meaningfully on household objects to fill in Frank's backstory.' That must have been a deleted scene. That said, I don't think they were hoodlums. Earlier in the scene it was made clear that while she was walking around the house she triggered some sort of motion sensor. quote:Using a single secondary character as a crutch to plod through your storytelling busywork is always going to strain the audience's patience, especially when you're also setting them up as an 'ordinary' love interest who needs to whizz through 3 episodes of sweetness and light before suddenly becoming suspicious and angry. It's massively overstuffed, and everything ends up feeling unearned (unlicenced lone wolf private investigator and (multiple?) murderer Karen Page just can't take any more of Matt Murdock's secrets and lies!). I think you perhaps missed the subtext. She didn't "suddenly become suspicious and angry" and definitely not because she "couldn't take any more of Matt's secrets and lies." Karen is someone who is driven by a strong sense of morality and she's obsessed with exposing the truth, especially when she feels that people are hiding something. We see this throughout both season 1 and season 2. So when Matt starts acting weird and missing important meetings and court dates and his relationship with Foggy becomes strained, her "spidey sense" starts tingling, and then when she arrives at Matt's apartment and finds Elektra in his bed, it's too much for her to handle. There isn't anything unreasonable about this. It's how most people would react in that situation. Of course, the best part about this is that she has secrets of her own. She has killed a guy, and her actions resulted in the death of another. So in a sense, she's a hypocrite. That's why Matt revealing his secret identity to her was so exciting. It's an opportunity for her to share her secrets and shed her guilt, which I expect will happen next season.
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Mar 26, 2016 20:33
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Lol a reporter ordered two cops off a crime scene to walk a secretary home
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Mar 26, 2016 20:38
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Light Gun Man posted:I hope Foggy ends up in a more good times kind of show because he's pretty great when he doesn't have to be pissed off and depressed because of all the poo poo his partner is doing to him.
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Mar 26, 2016 20:52
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Theres no way a DD third season ends without Nelson and Murdock, Avacados at Law re-opening for business.
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Mar 26, 2016 20:55
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Foggy feels like a sitcom character who walkef into a grimdark punchman show
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Mar 26, 2016 20:59
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Zzulu posted:Foggy feels like a sitcom character who walkef into a grimdark punchman show He would fit in really well in Better Call Saul.
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Mar 26, 2016 21:00
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SiKboy posted:Theres no way a DD third season ends without Nelson and Murdock, Avacados at Law re-opening for business. I would for an extended interaction between Foggy and Elektra.
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Mar 26, 2016 21:12
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I finished Daredevil season 1 last night. Netflix has been so good about writing really good female characters and then there's this show lol. It's good otherwise but holy poo poo I can't recall a more cliche character then Karen.
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Mar 26, 2016 21:13
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whats cliche
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Mar 26, 2016 21:15
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ufarn posted:It's going to be a while before we see another DD season, might as well put him to good use. Fingers crossed that Foggy shows up in Iron Fist. I would love to see him and Danny bonding and Iron Fist ends up becoming a much better vigilante friend to Foggy than Daredevil ever was. And then Matt can get it rubbed in his face during Defenders.
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Mar 26, 2016 21:16
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Zzulu posted:whats cliche Her entire reason for being is in the service of the male characters. Karen is straight up taken advantage of by Matt and Foggy, it was pretty amazing when Wesley brought this up in one of the earlier episodes, right in front of Karen, and she didn't have the self awareness to see he was right. I'm three episodes into season 2 and she is still written as an incredibly naive and foolish person working for free at their law firm and acting in the most unrealistic way possible.
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Mar 26, 2016 21:18
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enraged_camel posted:That must have been a deleted scene. Yeah, she set off the motion sensor, but the last we see of her in the house, she's peeking out the window as a van pulls up outside, suits get out, then she does the 'back against the wall deer in the headlights how do I get out' thing that movies/TV does, and it's never mentioned again. The nurse that Karen talks to and gets the address for Frank's house from mentioned that when Frank was in his coma, there were men in suits surrounding him. But beyond seeing them in the above scene, the show never goes anywhere with it. Just like when Matt goes temporarily deaf after his first fight with Punisher. He gets his hearing back, and then it only goes away for a short time in another episode. I hope those things play in to Luke Cage (the suits) and DD Season 3/The Defenders (whichever comes first), becuase it seems odd to do nothing with them...
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Mar 26, 2016 21:33
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The motion sensor triggered a silent alarm that was picked up by
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Mar 26, 2016 21:37
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Also, I guess I'm the only one who liked that they kept The Hand and the Black Sky somewhat vague and did not explain it explicitly. Mysticism is supposed to have a certain level of mysteriousness to it. Besides, it gave Matt an avenue to reject all of it as myth and legend, despite the fact that there were things about it he couldn't explain (e.g. Nobu being alive). Considering the show's overall tone and atmosphere, I think it struck a fine balance between realism and fantasy. If this was Iron Fist, on the other hand, I think we would have seen a much more detailed expose of the cult and its beliefs and operations.
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Mar 26, 2016 21:41
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Kheldarn posted:Yeah, she set off the motion sensor, but the last we see of her in the house, she's peeking out the window as a van pulls up outside, suits get out, then she does the 'back against the wall deer in the headlights how do I get out' thing that movies/TV does, and it's never mentioned again. As far as I remember they were at the front of the house, and she'd come in through the back door. How she got out of the house is hardly one of TVs greatest mysteries. ufarn posted:It's going to be a while before we see another DD season, might as well put him to good use. I'd be down for Foggy to become the MCUs go-to superhero lawyer. Wandering from show to show, doing good in exchange for produce.
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Mar 26, 2016 21:46
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I said come in! posted:Her entire reason for being is in the service of the male characters. Karen is straight up taken advantage of by Matt and Foggy, it was pretty amazing when Wesley brought this up in one of the earlier episodes, right in front of Karen, and she didn't have the self awareness to see he was right. She works (or at least, worked) for free as a way to pay Matt and Foggy for saving her life... I'm not sure what about this constitutes being taken advantage of. Besides, she has plenty of agency of her own and has independently contributed to the plot and helped moved it forward during both seasons. You say "her entire reason for being is in the service of the male characters" but the facts disagree.
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Mar 26, 2016 21:47
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enraged_camel posted:She works (or at least, worked) for free as a way to pay Matt and Foggy for saving her life... I'm not sure what about this constitutes being taken advantage of. No one willingly does this in real life, no professional lawyer would ask someone to do this. This is the exact definition of taking advantage of someone lol. She doesn't move the plot forward, she just does what she is told and goes about it in real clumsy and stupid ways, only for the male characters to pick up the pieces. We are into season 2 and she still isn't being paid for her work. Where is she staying at this point? She has to be homeless by now. And let's not even get started on Vanessa's whole, "I love you because you're a mass murderer and therefore will keep me safe." and then she almost dies and for no reason at all leaves America and her life as a successful art seller for a man that will be behind bars for life. I said come in! fucked around with this message at 22:01 on Mar 26, 2016 |
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Mar 26, 2016 21:57
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We should probably just create an entire show for Foggy and Claire called "Private Practice", to be perfectly honest.
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Mar 26, 2016 22:01
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I said come in! posted:No one willingly does this in real life, no professional lawyer would ask someone to do this. Professional lawyers also don't get paid in cake and produce. quote:She doesn't move the plot forward, she just does what she is told and goes about it in real clumsy and stupid ways, only for the male characters to pick up the pieces. No one told her to kill Wesley, or break into Castle's house in the middle of the night. Those are just two very simple examples of how she's her own character and has moved the plot forward.
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Mar 26, 2016 22:02
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enraged_camel posted:No one told her to kill Wesley, or break into Castle's house in the middle of the night. Those are just two very simple examples of how she's her own character and has moved the plot forward. Neither of these things moved the plot forward.
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Mar 26, 2016 22:03
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They moved her plot as a person who keeps dangerous secrets and then yells at others for keeping dangerous secrets forward!  Also her effectively getting someone killed and also killing someone has gotten her two jobs, including the one left vacant by the person she effectively got killed!I actually don't hate this part of her character I just wonder if they're ever going to actually go anywhere with it. Like at some point there's got to come a day where Matt realizes his "I didn't kill anyone so it's OK" is all hosed up because she killed someone as part of his overall thing and that ruins his supposed moral stance. edit: I should mention I'm still a few eps out from finishing the season so maybe this happens but I doesn't sound like it from reading this thread. Light Gun Man fucked around with this message at 22:09 on Mar 26, 2016 |
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Mar 26, 2016 22:06
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Light Gun Man posted:They moved her plot as a person who keeps dangerous secrets and then yells at others for keeping dangerous secrets forward! I don't think Karen will ever have to face it because she's Matt's True Love whicih makes everything she does tragically perfect.
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Mar 26, 2016 22:28
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HIJK posted:I don't think Karen will ever have to face it because she's Matt's True Love whicih makes everything she does tragically perfect. Maybe it's being set up for him to feel super mega betrayed about it despite letting Elektra kill lots of dudes for fun
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Mar 26, 2016 22:32
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Light Gun Man posted:Maybe it's being set up for him to feel super mega betrayed about it despite letting Elektra kill lots of dudes for fun I predict that he will inevitably murder someone (probably Bullseye or Kingpin) and Karen will reveal she murdered Wesley to comfort him. Then they will have magical healing sex and will both be exonerated of their sins, because sex.
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Mar 26, 2016 22:35
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HIJK posted:I predict that he will inevitably murder someone (probably Bullseye or Kingpin) and Karen will reveal she murdered Wesley to comfort him. Then they will have magical healing sex and will both be exonerated of their sins, because sex. Sounds about right, yeah.
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Mar 26, 2016 22:38
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Oh yeah, one touch I did like was Matt praying at Elektra's bedside. We hadn't really dipped into the explicit Catholic-ness in S2 other than the priest meeting.
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Mar 26, 2016 23:07
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enraged_camel posted:Also, I guess I'm the only one who liked that they kept The Hand and the Black Sky somewhat vague and did not explain it explicitly. Mysticism is supposed to have a certain level of mysteriousness to it. Besides, it gave Matt an avenue to reject all of it as myth and legend, despite the fact that there were things about it he couldn't explain (e.g. Nobu being alive). Considering the show's overall tone and atmosphere, I think it struck a fine balance between realism and fantasy. If this was Iron Fist, on the other hand, I think we would have seen a much more detailed expose of the cult and its beliefs and operations. No I liked it too. The names were ominous enough, like "Black Sky" and I liked the mysticism and mystery of it. What I didn't like was just how generic they were otherwise. They were literally just random cannon fodder ninjas appearing out of nowhere and getting beat unconcious in droves by Daredevil (what happens to the knocked out ninjas when they wake up again btw?? Is there like an army of corpse ninjas in jail now?) Zzulu fucked around with this message at 23:31 on Mar 26, 2016 |
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Mar 26, 2016 23:17
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I said come in! posted:Neither of these things moved the plot forward. What? "Fisk's men find Wesley, and the grieving Fisk realizes that the last person he talked to was Vistain. Wanting to keep those he loves safe by sending them out of the country, Fisk is unable to convince Marianna to leave him, but does get Vistain away, with the sick Vistain unable to tell him what her call to Wesley was about. Nelson continues his work without Murdock, and takes what they know to Stahl. Page, struggling to get over killing Wesley, convinces Urich to write the story, but it is rejected by Ellison. When Urich accuses Ellison of being paid off by Fisk, he gets fired. Urich decides to start his own blog to get Fisk's story out there, but Fisk's actual informant in the Bulletin tells him that Urich visited Vistain, angering him to the point that he breaks into Urich's apartment and kills him." Sounds like pushing the plot forward. Same with her breaking into Castle's house. If it wasn't for her findings there, the whole trial would not have happened.
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Mar 26, 2016 23:31
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computer parts posted:Oh yeah, one touch I did like was Matt praying at Elektra's bedside. We hadn't really dipped into the explicit Catholic-ness in S2 other than the priest meeting. There was Matt crossing himself when he said to Frank that killing the Blacksmith might be the right call.
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Mar 27, 2016 00:52
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I just think they missed a big opportunity when Matt told Elektra that the whole Black Sky thing is a myth and Elektra didn't respond with, "and your Jesus Christ isn't?"
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Mar 27, 2016 00:56
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enraged_camel posted:I just think they missed a big opportunity when Matt told Elektra that the whole Black Sky thing is a myth and Elektra didn't respond with, "and your Jesus Christ isn't?" Stick said it, pretty much, something like "Don't believe in coming back from the dead? Isn't your whole belief system based on a guy pulling that off?"
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Mar 27, 2016 00:57
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Gaz-L posted:Stick said it, pretty much, something like "Don't believe in coming back from the dead? Isn't your whole belief system based on a guy pulling that off?" Yeah, I just don't think it was nearly as effective coming from him, since he's kind of a side character.
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Mar 27, 2016 01:03
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Gaz-L posted:There was Matt crossing himself when he said to Frank that killing the Blacksmith might be the right call. Something about the way he did that and the way he delivered that line was really funny to me. It felt really cartoony.
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Mar 27, 2016 01:48
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I know I'm about 700 posts behind, but just to be clear: there is zero explanation for the hole, black sky or the exact details of the Punisher's backstory, correct? Well, at least episode 3 and 4 were enjoyable.
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Mar 27, 2016 01:59
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I finally finished season 2, and my main conclusion is that I felt like I was watching two halves of two completely different seasons badly edited together: one focusing on the Punisher and other straightforward criminals with a strong courtroom aspect and themes of questioning the morality and weight of being Daredevil with the Punisher and Foggy as the devil and angel on Matt's shoulders, and one focusing on the Hand and Matt's relationship with Elektra that delves into the War and themes of why Matt is doing all this and how far is too far against an enemy like the Hand. The two halves felt horribly disjointed, like the producers felt neither half could carry a full season and so jammed them together. Punisher was excellent, the actor did a great job of portraying Frank as a complex and human individual when he's often a character who falls into a one-note stereotype and not infrequently straw man. He and Foggy stole the show for me whenever they were on screen. Elektra, on the other hand, felt to me like a good actress struggling to bring a flimsy cardboard cut-out to life. She has charisma, but I found Elektra as a character shallow and completely unconvincing as Matt's love interest, lethal ninja, or anything in general. Matt and Karen came across as very confused and disjointed as a result in my view, inconsistent and not up to the task of welding the two sides of the plot together.
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Mar 27, 2016 02:02
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enraged_camel posted:Sounds like pushing the plot forward. Glad you said it so I didn't have to. She was very central to S1's plot, and shooting Wesley was an active choice she made that had strong repercussions. The plotting in S2 is less tight in general, but she's relevant there, too. She's the only one Frank will talk to and the only one actively seeking information about his past, for one. You may not like the form that took, but she's an important character who does stuff. Not just a damsel, the last episode notwithstanding.
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Mar 27, 2016 02:17
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I like Karen but her final speech about New York City exceptionalism has me rooting for the ninjas. TAKE EM DOWN NINJAS!
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Mar 27, 2016 03:39
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